two vintage beauties

This sort of report seems to be getting more common with VS cars and yet people are still quite loyal to Kurt.  I know he had health issues a while back.  Perhaps he's not as deeply involved as he used to be.

 

Regardless, Will is and should be upset.  As perhaps some consolation I had a hose to my oil filter burst about 2 blocks from home when my car had but a few 100 miles on it.  I limped home after pumping out most of the ~6 quart capacity I have.  I did that out of shear anger as well as some ignorance of how much oil I had lost.  I now have ~44,000 miles on the car with no indication of any engine damage.  Depending on how far you drove after the leak, you may very well be just fine, Will.  Fingers crossed for you.

Wow Jack if you really did all what Stan just typed in ... That was not what you signed up for and I would think the words return to sender would have been appropriate plus compensation. Unbelievable

There were some issues with Jack's car, but the engine/transaxle swap was not absolutely necessary as he went the first couple of years (IIRC) on the original drivetrain.  I think the swap was a desire for more power/economy/longevity, right Jack?  I do recall some chassis & suspension issues, but they didn't prevent him from enjoying the car.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, Will. As already said, no one should have to put up with these issues when buying new.

 

One thing that caught my eye in one of your earlier posts- you mentioned the cooler being before the filter on the line from the pump. The filter should be first, and then there should be a thermostat before the cooler, which will allow the engine to warm up faster (important for preventing engine wear). In cooler temperatures it's not uncommon for the engine to never reach proper operating temps (if not set up correctly), and you'll know this is happening by the dirty white mung (of almost mayonase-y consistency) that will collect on the oil filler cap and inside the top of the filler tube. It's created by the engine not getting hot enough to evaporate the moisture out of the oil, and this moisture reacting with stuff inside the engine. It's a common occurence up here (Vancouver, BC) with rebuilds where people have either left the flaps/thermostat or sheet metal (front breastplate [the piece over the bellhousing] and/or bottom sled tins) off. If it's an every day driver (I know a couple people that still drive bugs as their main transportation) the engine won't get properly warmed up for months at a time, and typically it won't last much more than 40 or 50,000 miles (in our climate).

 

Gene Berg once wrote that leaving the flaps and thermostat off caused 12-15% more internal engine wear (and less engine life) in southern California, where it's reasonably warm year-round

 

One friend who still drives his bug year-round (78x90.5, ported 40x35 heads, FK44 cam, either 45mm Dels or 44mm IDF's, all stock sheetmetal and flaps/thermostat) takes off the rear over the exhaust engine tin about the end of October and doesn't re-install it until the end of March or sometime in April (when it starts to warm up again). This way the engine warms up fairly quickly and temps are always within proper parameters. This engine now has some 88,000 or so miles on it (haven't talked to him in a month or so), still running strong and he's driven this car (with this engine) to Mexico and into Central America 2 or 3 times now. Al

George, it's steel.

 

The full-flow (no relief) which came on the car is aluminum.

 

Al, I thought the same thing about the arrangement of remote-cooler then filter back to engine. By the way, it is set-up with a thermostat before the cooler which sends the oil straight to the filer when cold.

 

So I called Gene Berg and spoke with two very knowledgeable fellows about that. I used to purchase most of my engine stuff from Gene when I was building motors back in the mid-70's and knew if anyone would have the straight-story, they would.

 

I was told that the cooler is first because of it constricts the flow (of oil) to the degree that when the filter is first (much less constriction), then the cooler, oil is often delivered back to the engine frothy (lots of air in it).

 

This way, (cooler first) the filter removes most of the air from the cooler and delivers mostly good, non-aerated oil to the engine.

 

Seems backwards but listening to not one, but two experts from what I consider  the Source on VW modifications, gives me confidence that at least Kirk put these two items in the correct order.

 

The tech at the shop in S.L.O. (where the car is headed tomorrow) thought it was backwards too (cooler first) so I'll have to call Berg and have them explain it to him.

 

By the way, the car still backfires to beat the band and not only on deceleration but often around 2800-3,000 rpm acceleration, just before shifting. This was supposedly fixed...twice...before we left the shop.

 

Now I'm just venting so I should stop.

 

Stan--nothing was necessary---everything was to make a good car a great car. I did two Carlisle 2,500 mile round trips in this VS pretty much as delivered except for an alignment early on. There was never any issue with the pan being "welded together incorrectly"--it is perfectly straight--always has been.

 

Lane said it better than I could. I'll add that there was bever a brake issue--I did report my experience with adding rear discs but that was not because of any problem--just to improve 

the car.  I admit I don't think drum brakes on Speedsters is a very good idea --especially with a lot of power, but I just wanted the extra insurance.

 

I'm not defending the horror story we are reading about here but my own experience has all been good with good support and advice from Kirk. 

 

You wrote as If I had to do the engine, tranny, brakes, etc to remedy problems and that was not the case at all---you may have given Caretech a wrong impression.

Builder loyalty depends on many factors, including how the builder responds to problems encountered by the new owner.  One thing seems evident: buyers who sell within the first year often advertise their cars as having already been sorted.  What this means to me is that our replicas increase in value after the new owner has struggled to make things right. 

 

Since many of us are familiar with the quality and reliability of the more traditional new car market, the lack of same in the replica market is troubling.  I can think of no other product market in which a new product gains value after a few months with a new owner.  Most new cars lose a substantial percentage of value in the first year.

 

We all know that today's replicas have lots of moving parts, and mistakes can happen.  The criticism is not that mistakes happen, but that simple procedures are not in place to catch and fix most of the complaints that new buyers have.  Of course, this costs money, but in the long run, is necessary.

 

The question is: what can we, as owners, do to affect a change in behavior by the builders?  I wish I knew the answer, but I don't.  Market share seems solid, so the builders in question have little to gain, business-wise, by improving QC. 

 

To be fair to new readers, the above remarks are not directed towards Special Editions or Intermeccanica, both of whom seem to build quality products and follow through with actual road testing after a new build.

Will, I'm sorry that you are having such a terrible experience and I hope all your issues get resolved as soon as possible. However, for balance we should also note that there are many VS owners on this forum with much happier ownership experiences. My 2013 VS had 400 miles on the car when I purchased it in May 2014. 3000 trouble free miles later I am delighted with build quality and reliability of my car. Chris

Excellent post about cooling the air cooled engine. 40 years of my own experiences with the air cooled engine agree with what ALB wrote. I have a customer, who has a beautiful speedster and needs the thermostat switch installed in his oil system, before winter gets here. I have the parts and just waiting on customer to show up and improve the way the engine warms up. ---George K.

Way to go ! You are a blessed person. Short talk about oil pumps. Customer had low oil pressure readings on his 2L- type four. He had an aftermarket pump. I put in a USED - VW original type four pump with new o-ring and the oil pressure went up. One really needs to be careful about pretty looking aftermarket parts.
----George K. ---

Couldn't one put an "acceptance clause" in the purchase contract that someone local (maybe a volunteer from SOC) would drive the car for a pre-acceptance run of say 120 miles.  There was a new car check list reference here awhile back.  "Tester" could check off items on list - provide copy to builder for repair and to new buyer.  New buyer could reimburse tester with a $100 donation to his favorite charity.

 

Further, a copy of checked check list could be posted here so we could see if builders paid attention and actually improved their quality control.

 

As a former member of the DOD Acquisition Corps - one of the DAU courses I took was on Edward Deming - QC guru.  Some of his quotes really apply here:

 

"Profit in business comes from repeat customers, customers that boast about your project or service, and that bring friends with them."

 

"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."

 

Thank you for that info, Will. Accepted practice has always been to route the oil line from the pump cover to the filter first, and then if adding a cooler (and thermostat) placing it after the filter. That gives me something to think about.....Al

 

PS- Yeah, I've always found the people at Gene Berg Ent. VERY helpful. And been buying stuff from them from the late '70's as well. Had many very insightful telephone conversations with Gene (not so much with Dee) back when I was a much younger man. 

 

PSS- Yeah, George, I've never questioned the way it was done either because that's the way everybody did it, and it seemed to work (no data, just more "yup, it runs, so it must be right" science). My brain's just having a problem picturing how it would be plumbed with the cooler first.... 

Wolfie, I have invented/created 3 products which are marketed by almost 400 retailers worldwide. www.coolfoot.biz www.bac-rac.com www.mend-it.com

 

Our sales are consumer-driven exclusively by word-of-mouth advertising.

 

Attention to detail is why we are succeeding and why our products are so well accepted.

 

Attention to detail makes and breaks companies but in this Speedster replica market, the gleam of a new paint job seems to lull us into complacency regarding the nuts and bolts of how a car actually operates, I know it did me.

 

 

Chris, Kirk has been mostly helpful with our issues but I hope you can understand that being stranded 100 miles from his shop, 170 miles from home, in a strange city, with no transportation and my bride of 43 years to protect, puts "the madness" into a totally different context than how it's fondly bantered here on the forum.

 

I don't want to harm Kirk's business but I can't, in good conscience, roll out the red carpet for other prospective buyers who may naively think buying a Vintage Speedster is like driving a new Toyota home from the dealer's showroom.

 

I use the Toyota example because a year ago, for almost $10,000 less than our Speedster, we drove a new Pruis C home and have had 0 issues of any kind. Toyota has built their reputation on attention to detail and it shows in their products.

Good post about variety in speedster bodies. I am trying my best to work with a poorly matched body on this old CMC I am putting together. I recall the IM, I owned back in 1992 , the hood fit good. On this CMC, I have to compromise on fit in many areas.

A person phoned me yesterday and wanted to know if I will put their old unfinished CMC speedster together. Wow, hard decision for me to make, as I am having such a difficult time with mine , working with body and misc. parts, which do not fit very good.

I enjoy building cars or rebuilding them. Since age 5, when playing with Tinker-Toy sticks, I have been in my zone with putting parts together. QC depends on having something good, to work with. We should agree China uses you and me as QC. My friend, who owns a VW parts store tells me EMPI allows him 10% on returns, due to bad parts, they produce. Meaning, they expect 10% of their parts to be returned for warranty replacement.

Price is the major factor on parts. Good quality cost more money and people do shop for the 'best' deals, meaning they want the cheap priced cake, which looks good. Taste might be terrible, but that cake looked good and was priced low. Get my point ?

My late Mom said " You get what you paid for things". Means, if you pay little for something, you get little in return. Very simple statement to live with and follow. Not everyone has unlimited money to always buy the best parts, but when I invest $4000 or more into an engine , I want the best quality parts.

Second hand cars can sometimes be a very good buy, as you said, the second or third owner has fixed some problem areas or they tried and gave up, so put the car up for sale. Either way, the next owner sometimes get that "deal" they are looking for.

Did you see the Black Bug with nice looking wheels, I showed in the George Who ? posted photos ? Second owner spent three years putting on quality parts. His wife wanted the un- useable car removed from her side of the home garage. So, he sold it for about 1/3 of what it was worth and I got lucky and saw the ad, the day it was posted on the Internet. One of the best buys I ever got and I have to thank the wife.

I'm sorry Jack- my memory must be failing me. I was sure I remembered something on the pan that Jake was fighting with when he did the engine and transaxle, but you'd know way better than me.

 

I also know you didn't HAVE to do the engine... but you did do it. Brakes too. Transaxle too. I didn't mean to give a false impression, but I'm still not convinced that your car's fantastic record of longevity and durability point to what a typical turn-key buyer can expect. 

 

Your car is fantastic. I'm going to stand by my original opinion that it has more to do with you than anybody else.

 

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression regarding the "bones" of the car. I'm really glad they are good.

I am not a smart person, but believe the Porsche engineers know what they are doing.  The auto magazines and auto testing Internet guys, all agree if you want a good car with quality, buy the Porsche. 

 

On the VW and Porsche air cooled engines, the oil flows from the pump through the oil filter, before it goes to the oil cooler.  Only when the oil is too thick or cold, does the oil pressure relief valves bypass the filter and also the oil cooler and send the oil directly to the main bearings.  Consider, that on the cold engine, there is the real possibility your oil is not going through your filter and directly to the bearings, to prevent blow up of the oil cooler. Blow out of a filter is rare as they have built in bypass valves. If they get clogged with lack of changing them, on a timely basis, the filter will bypass the oil from pump to bearings and the oil will not be filtered.  VW does put the screen before the oil pickup tube and that grabs big stuff , from wearing out the oil pump.  It makes more sense , as Porsche and VW followed to put the filter inline before the oil cooler.  Any good quality oil filter will not slow down oil flow.  Performance of the engine is more dependent on the weight number of the oil, than the oil filter.  And, 20 other factors. 

I appreciate that last post of yours, Stan

George, I believe Al and I were talking about a remote oil cooler, not the stock doghouse coolers.

Will I totally understand your perspective, what you have experienced seems totally unacceptable for a newly constructed vehicle. Hopefully you'll be able to quickly put these issues behind you and reset with the right kind of "madness". Good luck, Chris.

@ Will

 

Will, I just want to be clear on the setup of your car.  You had Kirk install a full-flow remote oil filter and secondary cooler in addition to the original doghouse cooler, correct?  And you said he put the secondary cooler first in the line and then the filter? Did he install a bypass valve to allow the cold oil to bypass the cooler?

 

Did you find out where the oil was coming from when you were driving to meet your friend or not yet? And the location where the donated oil came from was the same for the first two incidents but not the third?

 

I'm just trying to get a better idea on your setup and what happened. Thanks.

 

PS - Sorry for the trouble you're having a little QC would have prevented this.  Stick with it.  You'll have a lot of fun with your car when you get the issues sorted out. Getting one of these cars was a longtime goal of mine and I realized it last year and I'm having a great time.

 

PSS - My brother David is a longtime bass fisherman here in the Central Valley and even qualified, in the past, for the USA's Bass Fishing Team as an amateur and fished at Lake Havasu. (I believe that's what it was)

That was my understanding as well, Will.

Robert, you are correct in all regards, stock oil cooler is there but the full-flow oil pump cover sends oil to the thermostat, to the cooler, to the filter, to the engine.

 

I've looked, but can't tell where the leak is coming from. It's definitely not my fix on the filter adapter, it's higher because the oil is on top of the motor, everywhere.

 

I know at some point all this will be a memory and the good times are ahead, I was apparently confused thinking that $29,000 would ensure that, what do I know?

 

I used to fish competitively, fished the West Coast Bass draw circuit but that was a long, long time ago, mid 80's. I now make my living from our products, there's a good chance your brother uses our Mend-it soft bait glue or as a boater, possibly our coolfoot pads or Bac Rac rod holders...if he isn't...he should be!

 

Thanks for the concern and kind words. Whitecloud's headed to the mechanic tomorrow aboard a flatbed tow-truck, they'll take good care of her and hopefully deliver her from the Intensive Care unit to out-patient!

Okay, see the point. It is good to run the bypass cover to save the filter and external oil cooler. Senior moment, as they say . I am not sure any of the oil filters are designed to hold up to more than 100 psi. On high rpm, with a really good pump, that number is possible. Porsche engineers wrote for every 1000 rpm there should be 10 psi on the oil gauge. So, if you engine can run 10,000, technically, your oil pump should put out 100 psi. On my race engine, I saw 90psi at times and had the external oil filter and Berg bypass pump cover. Thanks for the correction in what I was saying.

Will,

It amazes me that with all the lawyers we have in this country anyone could send out a car they assembled with bad brakes. I call BS on needing rear drums for a firm pedal because my car has rear drums and the brakes were terrible when I got it. Adjusting and bleeding three times made them marginally better but what finally fixed them was putting some miles on it and bedding the brakes. I think it would be good to invest in some quality pads and shoes, this might have helped also.

     Who is building VS engines now?  At one time I heard it was Rascon who is supposed to be a good builder but VS installs the carbs and external parts. So the backfiring is on them which is inexcusable. Also as far as I know none of the engines are dyno tested which would help to reduce problems like you had. This is why I had CB Performance build my engine and run it on the dyno.  My external cooler was completely stripped when I got the car because someone (not me) put straight pipe thread fittings in the tapered pipe cooler bungs. It would have leaked like a sieve but luckily I caught it first.

     Stan, my car came with a Mahle filter on it and I've had no problems. I thought all these filters had relief valves built in.  Would that stop them from blowing or is it just in case the filter gets plugged.

     It would be interesting to hear from MusbeJim as he got a new VS last year and is driving the wheels off it. He hasn't said anything about problems.

Just a suggestion on your oil leak. Clean off the engine, when cold with carb cleaner. Hopefully, your engine sheet metal paint is the good stuff or be careful when spraying the carb cleaner. Start up engine and quickly look on top of the engine case and use a flashlight, for better lighting, if needed. IF the stock oil cooler seals are leaking, you will see oil slowly coming from the driver's side of the fan shroud, just behind the location of the distributor. That really tells you, a seal or two on the stock oil cooler is not doing it's job. Easy to troubleshoot. If you change out the oil cooler seals, do all four of them. I use Erling or Elring brand ( spelling?) for my engine gaskets. They were the original company in Germany making all the VW engine seals, and are still in business. All the other brands have poor quality rubber seals.

And, while rare, if you have some way to pressure test your oil cooler, now , with it removed, would be the time. Some aftermarket ones I have seen leak or they are made wrong and hard to explain this, but if you compare the aftermarket NEW stock oil coolers to the old stock German ones, look closely and you will see some differences where they bolt on the oil cooler stand . The difference, even though a new oil cooler was put on your engine, is that the seals do not squeeze down enough to seal good or with a few miles on them, they will start leaking, possible due to poor quality rubber. So, there are three things to look at.

I hope that solves your question about where the oil leak is.

Maybe, the adjustment and bleeding was not done correctly?

With disc up front , which I do recommend and stock drums on rear, on a 1500 pound car, it stops as good as ABS modern four wheel disc. But, your mechanic has to know how to do the "simple" drum brakes.

I rework the brake jobs from many local "expert" auto repair shops as VW drum brakes require more time to adjust and get right, then putting on pads and pushing a pedal a few times. Not that easy on the old VW drum system. I think many go with the four wheel brakes as their mechanic does not know how to properly adjust and bled the drum system.

But, with four wheel disc, if you are so inclined in that need, you need a proportioning valve installed to limit the percent of action by the rear disc brakes. New vehicles have this on them, so their disc brakes work great. Leaving it off a light weight car and you will see your front tires lock up and slide on dry pavement and the car, not stop good. With the proper set up , with four wheel disc, they work. Need that valve or use the front disc set up with drums on the rear. Those are the choices.

Reference, Jegs or Summit for universal brake proportioning valves. You have to use SAE to Metric adapters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldyx3KHOFXw

Robert, I like this one much better (I'm a country musician so go figure)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbRK-uvDcnU

 

So...the drama continues to unfold. Was called today by the shop where Whitecloud is currently residing. They pulled the motor to find the oil leak, pulled the fan-housing and oil cooler. Pressure tested the oil cooler (which was new) by pressurizing it with air while holding it in a tank of water...blew bubbles like Shamoo.

 

I knew it and said that was my suspicion, but still, not so stoked to know this motor is developing way too much oil pressure!

 

They're pulling the case apart tomorrow which is wise, given all the other issues we've seen and experienced.

 

Interestingly, yesterday they found a ground-off spot behind the distributor, in front of the fan-housing on the top of the case. It looks weird/suspicous enough that they think the case has been cracked and welded and then ground down. The owner of the shop, who's been working on VW's for over 20 years wants to know what's up with it. Who knows? I guess when the case is split tomrrow we'll see...

 

Will, I had a whole litany of issues with the motor in my new VS, some of which look the same as what you're seeing.

 

If you want to discuss - and how I resolved them - send me a dialog message.

 

 

- Mitch

 

 

Will

 

I hope someone else is going to pay for all that work your motor needs.

Bob, it's a gentleman's agreement with Kirk, that he'll pick up the tab for the repairs. I hope it works out that way, time (as usual) will tell.

Again, Will, sorry to hear of your (continuing) troubles. Please keep us in the loop as to what the shop finds with the engine teardown. My apologies if you've already told us, but what are the engine specs? And I'm really interested to hear what your mechanic has to say about the case repair after he is able to inspect it from both sides...Al

Good, my suggestion to pressure test the NEW stock oil cooler paid off. It is really getting hard to find good parts, even though we buy new stuff and it looks good to the eye. I pressure test all my NEW oil coolers with 100psi air and duck them into a big pail of water. Sounds like your shop knew how to find the problem.

---George K. ----

Wow...large and there's really no need for this. Good luck Will.

Al, the specs are basic: 69 crank, 94 jugs, twin Kadons, full flow pump cover (no pressure relief), remote filter and cooler with thermostat controlled fan (180 degrees). Electronic distributor, what am I missing? Oh yeah, a friggin' gigantic oil pump...on steroids!

Stock heads or ported? big valves? cam/rockers? exhaust? compression? 

 

I want to know EVERYYYTHING!!!

The stock replacement oil pump will output any aftermarket oil pumps, so use it. I buy the ones, that the VW German factory used, now being made in Brazil. Properly installed, they can put out 100 psi, if your engine can run high enough on the rpm.

Aftermarket pumps generally are poorly made, poor quality material and too much play in how the gears mesh. But, you use the one you think is best. My $15,000 race engine only used stock, original brand VW pumps. The 30 mm size. Never any oil pressure problems.

Al, as far as I know, it's a dual port, stock valve size-no porting/polishing, Again, as far as I know the cam, lifters, tappets and pushrods are stock. I don't know the compression ratio, I'm assuming it's in the 9:1 range but that's a guess. Very loud exhaust, like a cherry bomb (remember those?) with two chrome straight pipes out of it.

 

George, my comment on a gigantic oil pump...that's what's in the car and its obviously way more than it needs! I will spec out a VW stock pump when we rebuild the motor and it will have the pressure relief pump cover as well.

You probably already know this (from what you've written you have as much experience with these engines as I have, or more) but a 1915 with dual kads and even stock dual port heads would do so well with an Engle W100 cam (or anything similar). It would just make that engine so much fun! Is there a reason you had it built with the stock cam originally, or were there not options? With the stock cam, the compression is probably somewhere around 7 3/4:1. I think sending a stock cammed engine out at 9:1 would just be trouble down the road...