two vintage beauties

From working on these Beetle engines, I have seen many large size aftermarket pumps which look good, but do not put out enough oil pressure. Melling is a USA made oil pump. They made cast iron oil pumps with large steel gears for the VW Beetles and have seen them also used in the type four engines. The pump looks like good quality and the thing is heavy, in weight. The problem is that cast iron does not expand at the same rate as the magnesium case, so the Melling ( good brand name) pump would leak between the pump and engine case, losing oil pressure. The cure was to replace it with a new VW brand stock pump and we saw oil pressure go up.

Berg Enterprises wrote in their old catalog about this USA made pump and it's problems. The Berg's used to print and have available what they named as " Technical Articles" and sold this "book". They no longer print or have available their book of technical articles and there was a world full of good logical information about why Gene Berg suggested one product design of another product design. Too bad, they stopped printing and selling those articles. The man really did some testing of available products, while he lived, those parts used in the type one engine.

You have Kadrons. I have found those work good, but often need to be re-jetted, due to engine size and cam specs. Stock heads with the Kadron dual one barrel carbs and noisy exhaust ? I think that described your engine ? If your exhaust is EMPI part number
3761 in stainless steel or part number 3418 ( look it up on their web site for pictures) both do not have enough "back pressure" and will cause any engine, stock or modified not to run right.

I have tested both part numbers and they made tuning the engine difficult. Also, the dual one barrel carbs on the Kadron carb kit really like the tuned exhaust, like four tubes into one tube, with either a glass pack or quiet muffler .

If the engine is basically stock, meaning you only have a 1600cc size engine, the Kadrons do not tune out properly. They really need a larger size engine, at least the 1641cc with a mild cam to get enough air flow through the carbs. Otherwise, it's a bad combination. The questionable exhaust, stock heads and possible stock size engines all add up to problems with that combination and the use of that Kadron carb set up.

Put the Kadron carb kit on a 1776cc and they work great ! Or, have A.J. Sims, in CA. modify them and they can also work on 2110cc engines. Once the carbs are modified. He has a web site.

I agree with your points about using a mild cam in the man's engine, but have already upset a few people with my statements about why I have mental problems , due to the 1915cc, those with 69mm stroke and 94mm low cost pistons. We agree, the larger engine size would work better with the dual carbs.

From what has been described about the oil leaking engine, it sounds like someone built a basically stock one, put on some dress up items, like the exhaust and distributor and dual carbs
and if they put 9:1 CR in it, what a terrible combination. The car looks great. I think the car owner lost some value with the oil leaking engine and that " spot" on top of the case ? Could have been a rod which came loose and slammed into the top of the engine case ? Not good but if it barely hit the top of the case, that might be fixable. But, best to use another case, as that indicates this engine case had been abused.

Like others, I am most curious to read about the results of the engine tear down. Like, what they found inside the engine.

Will sounds like a guy who has a handle on this, so all of us telling him what he ought to be doing is't helping him. He seems to have the situation well in hand.

 

If I were in Will's shoes, I know what I'd have done with the engine... but that's beside the point. He's got a shop he trusts doing the work, has his own experience with these motors from back-in-the-day, and has a working understanding with Kirk. He's got this thing.

Stan: 

Stan, what would you have done, inquiring minds want to know?

 

I've been Jonesing for this one: http://losangeles.craigslist.o.../pts/5206652071.html

 

1959 Porsche Super (1725cc) with under 5,000 miles on it, owner sent me a video with sound...reminds me of my wife's '58 cabriolet...

 

Pretty sure he'd take $6K, his new (old-number matching) engine is built and ready to install.

 

It would just be so cool...

 

Oh, and again guys, I'm guessing on the cam/et all, The only "spec" I ordered was the 1914 engine, I left how and with what it was built to the builder, it was his job. Now it's mine, but a month ago it was his...

Will

 

Should you need a replacement air cooled engine, CBPerformance down there builds quality engines.  Intermeccanica uses them for all their air cooled builds.  It's what was in my last Speedster, and I never had a hint of problems with it.  A 2332 c.c. mill, what I had in my IM, gives you great performance, too.  CB will build whatever size you need.

 

Although, that original 356 engine looks great!  I know parts for it would be 'a little pricey'?

 

Stan and Bob- Will can take or not take our advice as he sees fit (he's a big boy and can take care of himself), but you know he's going to get it; that's what we do!

 

Will- Since you're guessing on the cam- how high did it rev with power? I'm guessing it has something other than stock, or it would be too hard to get the comression down to something reasonable. And re the Super engine- that's fine if you're actually trying to build a real Speedster clone, but you won't be fooling anybody (the purists will snub their noses at you even higher than usual as now you're trying to make it look like a real 356, and it will never have the all important vin number), it's very expensive for the power you're getting, and the beauty of these cars is we can personalize them to our heart's content and the purists' opinions don't matter. And how much will that little "real" piece of history cost to rebuild the next time around? Turn your engine into a 2165 with 40x35 heads and it will be way more fun than that 1725 will ever be!

 

I never thought I'd say this here, but what the heck- just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh!). Al  

 

Bob- Was your engine built with a new engine case?

Ha, I knew I could yank your chains! (Bob and Al)

 

Yeah, it would be cool to have a "real" motor and really, 1725 is more than enough for a 1600 lb car, but when it requires work...pull out the wallet and get ready to empty the bank account!

 

I really don't care what the "purists" think, I've had two cars some of them would give an eye-tooth for, but who cares, not me. I love this fake, I just want it to run well and not leak it's bodily fluids!

 

Going to the E.R. this morning to examine the case et/all and make an important decision regarding pulling or extending life support on the VS motor. I'll keep you posted.

 

If I could have exactly what I wanted, I'd have Berg Ent. or Powerhaus or CB build me an 82 x 88 fully counter-weighted, fully balanced motor with twin Weber 40's, a Vintage Speed (all stainless) EQ (extra quiet) exhaust with a custom center oval outlet ala Carrera.

 

Al, I don't know how high it revved as I was breaking-in a newly built motor. I hit 3500 on shifts into 3rd and 4th (4:12 tranny) but that's as high as I got her. She felt like she had lots more but again, I usually baby a new motor for at least 500 miles...then I drive it like I stole it!!!

 

 

 

82x88....that's an usual engine configuration.

Will, please listen carefully while we tell you how to spend (a lot) of your hard earned money.

We can't help ourselves.

I'm really good at spending other people's money...

If you wind up going for a new engine I will also back up the recommendation on CB Performance.  Besides IM, they also supply Beck with their air-cooled engines.  I have about 45k miles on mine, with most problems due to my using it to learn about VW engines.

I think what I'd do would be a function of what kind of credit Kirk would give me on the engine and transaxle. I'd walk away if I could, and just give the whole thing back to him.

 

If I had a clean slate, I'd go Type 4 all the way. I'd find somebody who would build it with nice heads and a V2 DTM (or a Cali conversion, at a minimum). I'd keep the combination modest- maybe 2270 (or less) and 9:1 with an easy-going cam. I'd get an A1 header header for it, a VW 4-speed built with all the "pro-street" mods, and get a 3.44:1 R/P.

 

A combination like that would go 100K miles, make 140+ H/P, and pull like a train. The 3.44 would be no big deal. I'd drive the wheels off of it.

 

... but I'm an incrementalist, so I ended up with 2x the money in a very, very cool Type 1. My engine is way more powerful, but will never last that long without top end work. A nicely built Type 4 will run pretty much forever.

Ron O, back a while, in my day, those were the magic numbers, torque-meister!

 

Darrel Vitone was building them and running 8's in the 1/4 mile...

Well, what a difference a day makes. Yesterday I was hoping my engine could be saved, this morning after looking at the sad evidence laying before me, I realized there's no way this motor is ever going to run again.

 

The case was indeed welded up from an errant rod having poked a hole through it some time in the past.

 

The case was relieved for a large stroke crankshaft, not my spec, I have a 69mm (stock) crank.

 

Oh, and classic for this motor, some of the case studs,  you know, the ones that hold the heads and cylinders on the case...finger tight!

 

Apparently the assembler at VS is so talented he uses his fingers instead of a torque wrench...for everything!

 

middle crank bearing was scored horribly.

 

second from rear cam lobe resembled the Rocky Mountains

 

pistons had vertical scores

 

I don't know if the valve guides are OK, the shop hasn't taken the heads apart.

 

There were hydraulic lifters in there, very unusual for a VW.

 

On and on it goes and where it stops, nobody knows...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well one of your vintage beauties has quite a few warts!  Is better half still in on this?  Mine would be taking it back with the receipt within the 30 day return period!!!  

Looks like Stan was right - Probably a GEX Mexi-Crate engine.

 

And poorly assembled, at that!

Wolfie, the boss wants the car, just not with the warts.

 

I'm going to talk to Kirk on Monday and let him know what the shop wants to get my car back on the road, that conversation will be an important part of our ultimate decision.

Gordon, the owner of VPA with 20+ years of VW experience, said the wear on the cam did not come from my 500 miles of driving or the lack of oiling on the last drive, he said it was most likely a used cam with a new gear.

 

And how lucky for me, to get a case already relieved for a 88mm stroker! Some guys pay extra for that.

 

 

Ouch!  Sorry to hear about the problems Will.  It looks like Kirk may be looking for a new engine guy.  Probably should just buy them from Pat Downs at CB and raise his price a little.

Honestly, that's about what I thought you'd find. I've never seen a hobby like ACVWs where people get away with stuff like this. They're tough little engines, but seriously.

 

So much better that it's come to light now though, rather than later. I'm starting to think Will is the smartest new-guy we've had in a while.

 

I'd ask for a credit. I wouldn't trust the transaxle either- too many ways to screw it up. There are a lot of places that screw together a decent engine for a fair price. Will's expectations were modest, and a decent engine needn't break the bank. A better engine/transaxle will cost a couple thousand more, but really- do you want to drive it, or look at it?

Really liked the " do you want to drive it , or look at it ?" statement. I spent $18000 on a Best of Show winning 1957 Beetle Sunroof model and I had so much detail on it and such a good paint job, I would not drive it. I was afraid someone would run into the car or I would get a chip in the front hood or windshield. Last time I had a "show only" VW. I looked at it sitting in my garage for two years, then sold it for a low amount.

I have never built up a show only car again and my current speedster project is designed to be a daily driver. I think the most fun can be had, by driving the car, not looking at it. Actually, I am tired of looking at this unfinished project after only one month , still not able to drive it.

All the little Beetle engines look on the outside about the same size. One really needs some accurate details and receipts showing what went into the engine build and the transmission , otherwise the buyer is guessing. I never buy from someone telling me " they think it has this or that in it ". And, they are being honest as they don't know. Stock to Modified cost can range from lows of $2500 to whatever in price and value.

My present 1776cc, to copy it, would cost at least $6000 in parts and machine work.
Yes, could have a bigger size engine, but not better quality. I abuse this engine every time I drive my car and it stays together.

I used to think the advertised price of $25,000 for a used speedster was high, but if you want a well built and good one, I realize ( building my own, from ground up) prices from $25,000 to $35,000 reflect a fair market value, if car has low miles on it.

Ask for receipts when someone tells you the engine was rebuilt or the transmission replaced. Someone paid money for those parts.
When I buy a "used" engine, I only pay the person after I do a complete tear down and inspection. Most have no idea what is in the engine, they found and are flipping it , to make some fast money. " The guy I bought it from said it was rebuilt and is a 2332cc ". Really, could be a 1641cc . If you have no experience how the higher torque and horsepower feels differ from the 1641cc to the bigger sized engines, you need receipts.

Saw the post about the real 356 Porsche used engine, for sale, at I believe, only $7500. That is about 1/2 price of what I would think it is actually worth, if a properly built engine. There are so many changes Porsche made over the short time, they had the 356 engine. So, just saying, a difference in which rods were used in the engine can made a big difference in how it will hold up, in daily driving use. A standard size 356 crankshaft should be worth at least $1,000 and that is just one part. Read Harry Pellow's books on the 356 engine changes and you will understand some of the 356 engines were not that great. Six millimeter size dowel pins are not what I consider big enough on any 356 engine, which connect the flywheel to the crankshaft and if they build up a larger size engine, than the 1600cc stock size, one really needs to watch out that the engine was built for extra horsepower. More rpm requires more oil and a oil sump. Does the 356 have the needed oil sump on it ? Going past 4000, you risk wiping out the rod bearings, without added oil capacity.

I wonder if everyone, with other than a stock engine in their speedster has at least a 1.5qt. oil sump ?

See it Kirk will credit you for a new engine (and transaxle?), and then give Pat Downs a call. If you want, you could get a long block from him and have your shop build it up.

What a mess.  I bet Bernie Bergman built that engine while he was over visiting his friends at GEX.

Thanks Stan, I'd love to be the smartest new guy, smartest any guy but that never was my strong-point!

 

Lane, I'm hoping Kirk follows through and covers the cost of a new long-block and install, I'm calling him Monday.

 

Ron, it is a mess and whomever built the motor should be ashamed of themselves!

 

Still considering which motor to have built. The cost of reusing my parts less crank, cam, lifters and case by VPA is more than a new longblock from Powerhaus in Torrance, CA.

 

Decisions, decisions...

When I got my VS in 2006,I was under the impression that Kirk used new engines that were built for the S.American new beetles and enhanced by his "in house" guy if you wanted bigger than 1600ccs.  I think they quit making those beetles so maybe that engine source dried up.  Does anybody know where the current VS engines are coming from?

 

Will;

 

I hope Kirk will make this right.  A substantial amount of business has gone his way thru this club/site.

 

His reputation, I am sure has taken a hit, on this transaction.

 

Hang in there!

 

Art

It doesn't have to rev to the moon. Just make it BIG...

 

Seriously, if you end up buying a crank and rods, think about short rods (5.352") and a 74mm crank; you already know how the torque in a VW engine improves with a longer stroke crank, it won't be much harder to build (width won't be much different but finding more cc's in the combustion chambers might be a little bit of a challenge), and the lower end and midrange power (where we do most of our driving) of a 2054 will make the car so much more fun. Even with a very mild cam and stock heads it would rev to 5,000rpm and be such a fun engine. Al  

"Does anybody know where the current VS engines are coming from?"

 

Junk pile or CraigsList by evidence of this one. How could anyone on East Coast bring themselves to buy one new?  Definitely drives the used/sorted VS market prices up.

Roland Rascon builds the VS engines and has for many years.  I imagine he still does.  Roland built a big Type1 for Marty a few years ago and it was a gorgeous engine.  I believe Marty was very pleased with it.   I don't mean to speak for Marty  and he can chime in.

 

VS does not use "Mexicrate" engines.

 

Roand also built a 1915 that I have owned and it was always 100% reliable.

 

If anything, the engines in a VS is the best part of it, IMHO.

 

 Let's see how this gets resolved before we conclude that  "his reputation will take quite a hit".

... well... we all saw the pictures. It's hard to argue what Will got was "quality".

Jack, I certainly didn't join this forum to make waves or enemies but you are absolutely wrong that "the best part of a VS build is the motor".

 

While I was in the shop, watching the "experts" blame the Fram oil filter for a 4 quart hemorrhage of oil which landed on the parking lot at our hotel the morning after we picked up our new car...which turned out to be a finger-tight filter adapter nipple, installed by the "experts" at VS...

 

...I was listening to a fellow who was in with a seized motor in his new VS. This sweetheart of a guy, purchased a white Speedster for his wife who had always loved Speedsters and surprised her by driving it home 100 miles south (Carlsbad, CA) and parking it in their garage. She walked into the garage, was absolutely blown-away (I can't imagine how this guy's love account could've possibly gotten higher than at that moment) and hopped in to take it for a spin.

 

They backed out of the driveway, put it in 1st and she let out the clutch...engine seized! No go, no mo...

 

He was waiting on the verdict on their car as I waited on the verdict on my car...

 

...and the beat goes on, and the beat goes on....

 

Meanwhile, I've had folks taking photos of my poor shell of a car, up on the rack at the shop. Everywhere it goes, we have people asking if it's OK to take a photo. The body and interior is beautifully done, the motors, not so much.

 

I think instead of two options: kit or turn-key, Kirk should offer 3: kit, turn-key and rolling chassis without motor. He would make more happy customers and we could be assured of a quality build from the builder of our choice.

I think instead of two options: kit or turn-key, Kirk should offer 3: kit, turn-key and rolling chassis without motor.

 

I thought he did?  Guess I was wrong.

 

This car will be a lot like the first year of marriage for people who did not live together while dating.  There will be some difficulties, some unecessary arguments and a certain amount of "getting to know each other".  After that it'll be pure bliss.

 

It doesn't have to be that way though.

 

I hope Kirk makes some changes to his business plan as a result of this experience and even the experience of the other fellow you mentioned.

Jack, I would be surprised if Roland Rascon is supplying such a poor quality product.  He is pretty highly regarded in the area. I think he put together both of our motors when he was at VS, and like you, I have been pleased with my VS 1915.  Just turned 10,000 miles with nothing out of the norm. Would sure be nice to know where the latest engines are coming from.

 

One gets the feeling, after reading through all of this, that VS has different approaches to arriving at different price points for their products.  

 

If you let them spec your car and you go with the 'stock', "enough to get you down the freeway" engine, you'll end up with a 1,600 Mexicrate, Hydraulic valve engine because you didn't ask for anything better and they are CHEAP, saving VS money.

 

If you come across a little more savvy and/or ask for a larger displacement engine with particular stuff on it, then you might end up with an engine from Roland Rascon - if you do, then good for you, and VS passes the extra cost (probably list, if it were me doing the deal) on to you.

 

If you're less savvy, then a slightly larger displacement engine from GEX with no frills.

 

That's probably why we see a selection of different engines (and price points and quality) coming from the same car builder.  

 

What really pisses me off is that there is no easy way to tell what the hell you have under the cooling tins without pulling the engine apart.  I found out much the same way that Will and that other VS buyer did - I had a Bernie Bergman built long block that siezed after 15 minutes of idling in my driveway.  In disgust (and after finding that I would have to pay the freight+ to get it fixed) I chose to rebuild it myself.  To his credit, all of the parts used by Bernie (this was around 1997) were exactly as I had asked, but his builder installed a main bearing poorly and it seized.  Still, I then knew exactly what was in there - never would have truly known without a teardown.

 

Is that what we all have to go through in this hobby?  What happened to builders actually providing what we think we're supposed to receive (and, believe me, I am TOTALLY excluding Intermeccanica and Beck from all this - I believe they produce quality product).  What happened to builders producing quality products that don't have the potential to kill one of us when used as intended?  What happened to caring?

 

One of my neighbors, when I was a kid, had a small machine shop in his cellar.  He used to let me use his equipment to build things, very heavily supervised, at first, until he began to trust me.  One of the first things he taught me when building something from scratch was, regardless of the intended use or whether anyone would ever see it, was "Make it as though somebody cares about it."

 

THAT is how a lot of so-called 'builders' in this hobby should act.  I just wish I knew how the hell to make them do it.  Maybe open issues and wide publication on a forum such as this is a good first step...

 

Just remember, builders;  The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

 

 

Will, you are not making waves and certainly are not making enemies! You are making many new friends here who are rooting for you and looking forward to you receiving just treatment and an acceptable resolution to the engine issues you are experiencing  Man, I hate that for you!  Plus the story of the blown engine right after delivery ---what a horror story!  I would never have your calm demeanor and aplomb if this was happening to me so my hat's off to you---I hope you will continue the updates here as things develop.

 

My post about Roland Rascon I was merely  to add info to the dialog and don't know for certain exactly who is building the VS engines today.  You'd do us  all a favor if you can learn who actually  is the current builder and share it here.

 

Hang in there, Will--I hate this for you and am rooting for you to be treated as I would want to be, and that this turns out ok for you. Keep us posted!

Will

 

Jack's a good guy, even if he does play the banjo. 

 

 

I beat this into my employees. It's all that matters.

 

I tell them, "make it look like somebody loved it". Same thing.

When I was in sales I saw a couple signs in a few stores I had as customers and those were:

 

"If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it again."

 

And the other one was:

 

"It takes many customers to build a good reputation and only one to lose it."

 

Too bad not everyone takes that to heart.

Thanks all, for the support, this hasn't been easy and dropping such a chunk of change for something we had hoped would be a "drive down memory lane" has been more like a "ghastly ride through terror central".

 

When I was at VS, 3 times in 3 days, there were 5 guys working there, all hispanic and all very nice guys. The engine builder appeared to be one of them, that's all I know.

 

I chose a 1915 on Kirk's recommendation and have no idea whether it was built in the shop or elsewhere. So far Kirk's not blamed some outside entity if that means anything.

Surveys on couples who lived together before getting married, show 75% divorce rate. Yep, guess that is the modern route to follow ???

As least, those who barely sleep around only have 50% chance of divorce. Christians and all , it's still about 50%.

Can I suggest the thinking on what cheap cost large engine to buy for anyone's speedster change slightly. I suggest, based on 90,000 miles of use and many of these built and abused and still running, instead of the low cost 1915cc, go with the 1904cc. Could read 1903cc, but all in how you build the engine, that one cc does not matter. It uses the 74mm stroked crank and you get more low end torque with any crankshaft with a longer stroke. And, on the bore, uses the super long lasting and lighter weight 90.5mm, and there are many good brands available. The rods can remain stock length, as you are only adding 5mm to the stroke.

So, compare the 1915cc to any well built 1904cc and you will find you have more torque, more horsepower and a much longer lasting engine with the 1904mm. It's not that I am against using 94mm pistons, but one really needs to spend a ton of money to get quality parts and as the larger piston has more ring surface, there will be more chance of blow-bye, past the rings. More friction and more surfaces to keep cool.

There used to be the popular cheap 1835mm which had the stock crankshaft and 92mm bore kit. They were terrible in lasting very long, over heated and were cheap, so everyone bought them. More forward to about year 2000 and the hot ticket is the low cost 1915cc, as they are cheap to build.

Even if you do have to spend a few more dollars on the 1904cc, due to the 74mm crankshaft, often no clearance problem occur in the stock case or anyone can use a small rotary device and remove the very little case material . It does not require major surgery to the case. I would also suggest the strong and dependable 1776cc, but put in a nice cam and spend money on the heads and dual carbs and you again will have a longer lasting engine with more horsepower than the 1915cc.

I will not build the 1915cc. I have build engines using quality 94mm's but they are expensive to get those right. The better combinations use a larger stroke and the 90.5mm for a longer lasting engine. I think one speedster owner posted a picture of how much the heads need to be cut to put in the 94mm cylinders. Now, just common sense would tell all that is border line on machine work.

People make up for leaking 94mm cylinders to heads, using copper gaskets in the heads, but copper gaskets crush and are only suggested by the professional engine builders in turbo only engines. Most turbo engines see very little street use or running time. Unless you plan to re-torque your VW engine heads, which someone put in those copper head gaskets, you will certainly find in a rather few miles, the heads will be leaking past those copper head gaskets.

I am trying to save everyone money by using what I know are longer lasting combinations on engine sizes. If you shop by price only, buy the 1915cc and good luck ! I drive my air cooled engine vehicle about 10,000 miles/ year, so I want it to last, in all kinds of weather and temperatures.

Your engine builder may be careful in building your 1915cc engine, but by design, you will not have the best combination.

Other than the 1904cc, I suggested, if you have the money go for any engine using 90.5mm cylinders and something with over two liter in displacement. It should run great ! Plenty of torque and plenty of horsepower. ---George K. ---