I have not kept up with current type 1 motor technology, but has anyone ever come up with electronic fuel injection for these motors.Please don't laugh too loud!
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I have not kept up with current type 1 motor technology, but has anyone ever come up with electronic fuel injection for these motors.Please don't laugh too loud!
Michel,
Pat at CB performance has been working on a laptop programable EFI for type 1's for some time now. I spoke with him about it last week and he said it was a month or so away from being completed...
CB has other injection (competition fuel injection), but not as tuneable as this will be, so I'm told.
Mitch (an SOC member) had the CB competition fuel injection on his ENVEMO, and it seemed to work nicely. It had a small box to tune the mixture at idle and WOT.
Carey
Pat at CB performance has been working on a laptop programable EFI for type 1's for some time now. I spoke with him about it last week and he said it was a month or so away from being completed...
CB has other injection (competition fuel injection), but not as tuneable as this will be, so I'm told.
Mitch (an SOC member) had the CB competition fuel injection on his ENVEMO, and it seemed to work nicely. It had a small box to tune the mixture at idle and WOT.
Carey
check out---megasquirt on the web or shoptalkforums.com under fuel injection=lotsa info
old cb system is geo metro stuff converted.
Lots of company
what about 1970's fuel injected beetles? arent those type I engines?
I have been told that the early fuel injection was more hassle then it was worth? In fact I have a friend that had an MG replica and he took the fuel injection off just because it was so much trouble.
oops, wrong thread.
I think if you want one stop shopping today, either Gene Berg or VW Paradise will make you very happy (if not in the wallet). If I had just one vote today, for a one stop shopping solution, it would be VW Paradise and their Redline/Weber solution. The product is well integrated and Kris at VW Paradise is very knowledgeable and accessible (just like Pat Downs is at CB, when CB gets their new system out on the market).
I have settled on Redline/Weber Throttle Bodies (they are beautiful Billet items and look fabulous). I am building my own MegaSquirt ECU to control the whole system. MegaSquirt is an open source project started by a couple of engineers a number of years ago. It is open source so the rate of improvement and change is striking. It is also a very cost effective solution; the whole ECU will run something between $150 for a bare bones setup, to say $400 for the top of the line.
As far as FI being offered on Beetles in the past, the answer is correct! In fact, for anyone wanting to do a very inexpensive system, much of the Mexican dual port FI bits can be put together with a Megasquirt ECU to yield a state of the art solution for smaller displacement engines (for sure 1776 and maybe up to 1915 with little major surgery). I have a set of Mexican End Castings, Manifold Runners, Throttle Body, Generator Stand, etc. coming from a Mexican source that I am going to modify for use on my larger engine (this is a longer term project, largely for my own education). These pieces would go right on a smaller displacement engine and provide a super low cost and effective solution.
If you want to go EFI and are not sure what you options are, feel free to email me and I will be glad to tell you everything I have learned over the last few months on the subject. Also, Bruce Gordon, who posted earlier on this thread, has forgotten more than many will ever learn on the subject and would also be an excellent person to query on the subject. Bruce really got me pointed in the right direction.
It really is not as daunting as many who know nothing on the subject would lead you to believe (that never seems to stop them from posting does it?). It will take a few hours reading and assimilating, after that, you will be convinced, one way or the other. All in all, it has been some of the most fun I have had with my car, I highly recommend it.
I have settled on Redline/Weber Throttle Bodies (they are beautiful Billet items and look fabulous). I am building my own MegaSquirt ECU to control the whole system. MegaSquirt is an open source project started by a couple of engineers a number of years ago. It is open source so the rate of improvement and change is striking. It is also a very cost effective solution; the whole ECU will run something between $150 for a bare bones setup, to say $400 for the top of the line.
As far as FI being offered on Beetles in the past, the answer is correct! In fact, for anyone wanting to do a very inexpensive system, much of the Mexican dual port FI bits can be put together with a Megasquirt ECU to yield a state of the art solution for smaller displacement engines (for sure 1776 and maybe up to 1915 with little major surgery). I have a set of Mexican End Castings, Manifold Runners, Throttle Body, Generator Stand, etc. coming from a Mexican source that I am going to modify for use on my larger engine (this is a longer term project, largely for my own education). These pieces would go right on a smaller displacement engine and provide a super low cost and effective solution.
If you want to go EFI and are not sure what you options are, feel free to email me and I will be glad to tell you everything I have learned over the last few months on the subject. Also, Bruce Gordon, who posted earlier on this thread, has forgotten more than many will ever learn on the subject and would also be an excellent person to query on the subject. Bruce really got me pointed in the right direction.
It really is not as daunting as many who know nothing on the subject would lead you to believe (that never seems to stop them from posting does it?). It will take a few hours reading and assimilating, after that, you will be convinced, one way or the other. All in all, it has been some of the most fun I have had with my car, I highly recommend it.
If you want to know what is available regarding EFI on VW engines, it is all on the net.
There are a large number of people doing EFI on Type 1 and Type 4 Aircooled VWs. If you want to meet some of them and hear their stories (via the internet), just go to the Shop Talk Forums and start reading.
Here are a few facts:
1) Lots of very successful EFI systems are up and running on air cooled VWs.
2) CB
There are a large number of people doing EFI on Type 1 and Type 4 Aircooled VWs. If you want to meet some of them and hear their stories (via the internet), just go to the Shop Talk Forums and start reading.
Here are a few facts:
1) Lots of very successful EFI systems are up and running on air cooled VWs.
2) CB
Gee. Between Gordon and Bill posting good solid info on one thread, I'm about to break out in hives. Thanks for sharing.
these are my weber carbs which have been "gutted" and sealed which
will eventually hold my injectors with turbo hats on top. No throttle
shafts, floats or other innards. Air will pass through these only.
I like the look of carbs with the performance of FI.
will eventually hold my injectors with turbo hats on top. No throttle
shafts, floats or other innards. Air will pass through these only.
I like the look of carbs with the performance of FI.
Attachments
Images (2)
Besides they cost me $40.
I defer to Gordon and Bill's knowledge, good info. My car may be the only one here currently running with the CB EFI rig refered to above. It was installed by the first owner in about '98. I didn't know anything about it, good or bad, it was just what the car came with, I've tried to learn as I go. All I can tell you is - it works, the engine starts easily, holds a steady idle, goes ZOOM when I press the gas pedal and slows when I let off, no burping, hiccupping, backfiring after its warmed up. It was setup with the lines coming in to a tee at the bottom of the tank as mentioned. Its been completely troublefree, maybe I'm just dumb-lucky. I believe CB sells this system for a little under $2K.
The system is fine, usually trouble free, cheap, parts you can buy at
the local store. What more could you ask for. The only complaint that
"performance minded"(read:tinkerers) people have is that the computer
is not tweakable. but it works fine.
the local store. What more could you ask for. The only complaint that
"performance minded"(read:tinkerers) people have is that the computer
is not tweakable. but it works fine.
Hey Gregg, good to see you on here, (Hi-Jack alert).
Bruce, thanks for the pics and info.
Bruce, thanks for the pics and info.
Gregg and Bruce, what cc engines are you (planning - Bruce) running with this system?
Mine is 2007cc (90.5 cyl X 78 crank)
Nice job on the DIY Bruce. CB's throttle bodies sorta look Weber-ish, same air filters.
Nice job on the DIY Bruce. CB's throttle bodies sorta look Weber-ish, same air filters.
presently installed 1600. Hopefully next year/season
82X94, t-3 turbo, hideaway turbo header, megasquirt. Engine compartment
very clean (no extra wires ducts etc in view), dist (cap) eliminator
(see pic), coil pack and wires mounted on rear of shroud to clean up front of engine. Oil sender port plugged (psi can be taken from oil cooler line below eng tin). Pressurized air from turbo(below tin)will
be routed up through (hidden) the (unused)fresh air hose pass through
the fan shroud(sealed tube)and tee off behind shroud to come back to
my turbo hats on top of my converted weber bodies. The only thing you
should be able to see from the "front" of the engine (hopefully)will
be the alt., belt, and small anodized cap on the dist.and two fresh air tubes.
Well, thats the plan anyway.
Ps.fuel pump block off plate installed with a vent line routed under Alt. out and up and I may even shave the oil filler neck off the Alt. stand and fill from another point in the system.(remote neck with line to sump or valve cover).
But then again I might have to drive the kids to soccer or something.
82X94, t-3 turbo, hideaway turbo header, megasquirt. Engine compartment
very clean (no extra wires ducts etc in view), dist (cap) eliminator
(see pic), coil pack and wires mounted on rear of shroud to clean up front of engine. Oil sender port plugged (psi can be taken from oil cooler line below eng tin). Pressurized air from turbo(below tin)will
be routed up through (hidden) the (unused)fresh air hose pass through
the fan shroud(sealed tube)and tee off behind shroud to come back to
my turbo hats on top of my converted weber bodies. The only thing you
should be able to see from the "front" of the engine (hopefully)will
be the alt., belt, and small anodized cap on the dist.and two fresh air tubes.
Well, thats the plan anyway.
Ps.fuel pump block off plate installed with a vent line routed under Alt. out and up and I may even shave the oil filler neck off the Alt. stand and fill from another point in the system.(remote neck with line to sump or valve cover).
But then again I might have to drive the kids to soccer or something.
I'm keeping my eyes open for a set of 911ish carb/filter covers.
The ones that look like a baking pan overturned.
Next stop kmart.
The ones that look like a baking pan overturned.
Next stop kmart.
Bruce, I think I saw some on the Samba a few weeks ago....
Thanks for the info guys. I am following Bill's build and will be looking at all the options for maybe a changeover when I have the spare $$ and time. I may write you with some Qs as soon as I learn more on the forums.
Thanks for the info guys. I am following Bill's build and will be looking at all the options for maybe a changeover when I have the spare $$ and time. I may write you with some Qs as soon as I learn more on the forums.
Jim:
Are your carbs giving any problems? Or would you just like to have FI?
Are your carbs giving any problems? Or would you just like to have FI?
Greg, congrats on your EFI. I sure hope I did not come off dissing your system, as I do believe the current CB offering is still much better than carbs (with the exception of the return line tee issue). The fact that there are more state of the art systems available today is really more a mtter of when products were first offered, than who knows more about EFI.
On the subject of the return line TEE, although there is no way of knowing how many successful return line tee setups there are versus those that gave problems, as you only hear of the problem ones on the forums (I now know of one that gave no problems), everything I have read says, do the return line to the tank.
Bruce, if you are thinking about turbo, have you considered going with the Mexican Beetle FI stuff for the manifold and throttle body? I have some coming for a project I have in mind that includes Turbo. I think the single TB approach for turbo has a great deal of potential, and the prices are hard to beat for used Mexican parts.
On the subject of the return line TEE, although there is no way of knowing how many successful return line tee setups there are versus those that gave problems, as you only hear of the problem ones on the forums (I now know of one that gave no problems), everything I have read says, do the return line to the tank.
Bruce, if you are thinking about turbo, have you considered going with the Mexican Beetle FI stuff for the manifold and throttle body? I have some coming for a project I have in mind that includes Turbo. I think the single TB approach for turbo has a great deal of potential, and the prices are hard to beat for used Mexican parts.
Hey Bill,
Great post! I know many of us will be interseted in your progress on your new EFI system. Keep up the good work.
Brooks
Great post! I know many of us will be interseted in your progress on your new EFI system. Keep up the good work.
Brooks
Bill, I have t-1 fuel injection stuff already, thanks. I've decided
against using any of it (if anyone needs some? email me).
I'm looking to really keep the front of the engine clear(personal taste) and I found the t-1 center section to be very bulky. Thats why I like the turbo "crossover" tube between cyl. banks to be behind the shroud
and then 90 degree into the "fake" carb bodies.
against using any of it (if anyone needs some? email me).
I'm looking to really keep the front of the engine clear(personal taste) and I found the t-1 center section to be very bulky. Thats why I like the turbo "crossover" tube between cyl. banks to be behind the shroud
and then 90 degree into the "fake" carb bodies.
Bob,
The IDFs have been easy to maintain and I am learning more as I go. They have been problem free (knock on wood) even running from sea level to the high passes in BC, the desert, around 8,000' at Flagstaff and around here at 1600' ASL. I've read many of the glitches/problems on IDfs in forums, but so far? I've only adjusted them twice and keep the filters sealed (K&Ns), plus keep the gas filters changed. I am certainly no expert on the IDFs, but my experience with them has been positive so far. (knocking on wood x dos)
The EFI interests me in the long run. As you probably know, Brooks' Speedster is already plumbed for it. I think he and I, both, have been waiting to see what the feedback is on the (anticipated) new CB FI. But, Bill's research and now, gathering of parts (I've been pestering him with e-mail), has my attention. His engine build (and Brooks') is the same as mine in every single detail, and so his results are of interest to me. I may go with the EFI if I get a good handle on what Bill has done, and I dare to mess with a properly running IDFd 2110.
In other words... I feel strongly both ways. (I worked for the Feds, and so....)
The IDFs have been easy to maintain and I am learning more as I go. They have been problem free (knock on wood) even running from sea level to the high passes in BC, the desert, around 8,000' at Flagstaff and around here at 1600' ASL. I've read many of the glitches/problems on IDfs in forums, but so far? I've only adjusted them twice and keep the filters sealed (K&Ns), plus keep the gas filters changed. I am certainly no expert on the IDFs, but my experience with them has been positive so far. (knocking on wood x dos)
The EFI interests me in the long run. As you probably know, Brooks' Speedster is already plumbed for it. I think he and I, both, have been waiting to see what the feedback is on the (anticipated) new CB FI. But, Bill's research and now, gathering of parts (I've been pestering him with e-mail), has my attention. His engine build (and Brooks') is the same as mine in every single detail, and so his results are of interest to me. I may go with the EFI if I get a good handle on what Bill has done, and I dare to mess with a properly running IDFd 2110.
In other words... I feel strongly both ways. (I worked for the Feds, and so....)
No offense taken at all Bill. I'm probably the least knowledgeable person in this thread, just felt obligated to share my experience knowing that what I have is a bit of a rarity in the Speedster crowd. I totally understand that those with more technical expertise and inclinations would want a more tuneable / sophisticated system. Not long after I got the car I did add a fuel pressure gauge between the outlet of the second (downstream) throttle body and the pressure regulator, it seems to show pretty consistent pressure, around 45 psi I think.
Bruce, I understand. I have already got my set of old T1 FI stuff coming, but if you want to unload what you have, you might go to the STF FI Forum and go to the BtlMex FI thread. My sense is there are a number of guys looking for that stuff. I think it may only take a post or two to get it all gone. Also, I think there are a number of guys lurking on TheSamba for that stuff. I found a set of end casting on TheSamba, bid on it, got the deal done, only to have a guy contact the seller and outbid me before he sent the stuff to me. It may be a false sense of demand, but I think they are pretty hot right now.
Greg, you hit on the key. If your system will deliver consistent fuel pressure through out the RPM range, your plumbing is working fine. It's great to hear success stories.
Greg, you hit on the key. If your system will deliver consistent fuel pressure through out the RPM range, your plumbing is working fine. It's great to hear success stories.