Type 1, 2110 oil volume question

Do you have a sump?

Had a 1 1/2 quart one that leaked from ever nut. One of the better engine builders in the area said to take it off as it isn't that much help with running a filter and oil cooler with the increased oil in the system.. I might have to put it back on. That's why I asked if anyone one was running a 2110 with the standard (original) sump.

VW gave the stock engine enough oil for it to be driven as they intended; a utilitarian, low rpm commuter car. Any VW aircooled engine that revs quicker and/or higher than a stock engine needs a sump. Any VW, even a completely stock car, that is driven harder than the what the engineers at Wolfsburg envisioned, needs more oil capacity than the factory provided. They gave it the minimum it needs to meet the conditions it was built to operate under. After all, it needed to be cheap to operate, and another quart or 2 of oil just added to the expense, and oil wasn't as cheap as it was today.

 

Ok, so it needs more oil capacity, but be clear that the extra oil in the filter and extra cooler is outside the engine and not available to the pick up! That is what a deep sump does. And there are different size sumps- 1 1/2 extra quarts will protect an engine to about 6,000- 6500rpm in a street car, the 3 1/2 quart, low profile but wide unit is for higher strung street cars and the drag racers tend to favor the deep, relatively square 4 quart sump so there is no chance the pick up will run dry, because if the engine runs out of oil at higher rpm's (8,000 or 9,000) it turns into junk right now!  

 

When re-installing the sump, a couple of things; make sure the mounting surfaces are mating completely and a fin somewhere isn't keeping it from bolting up properly, and either install the sump with the gasket rubbed with gasket sealer (the round drain plate gaskets of today are porous, made out of cheap pressed paper or cardboard and not proper gasket material) or just use sealer on the mating surfaces and eliminate the gasket altogether. For inbetween the sump plate and the sump, use sealer on the gasket and use the proper cap nuts and copper washers (not the cheap copper coated washers) so they seal the nuts to the plate. If you don't have the right cap nuts, then install the plate studs into the case with a locktite of low grade holding power so oil doesn't leak through the threads.

 

I prefer a sump plate with a drain plug so you're not always removing the whole plate. For the drain plug crush washer, I've been told that the Japanese cars have a similar washer that can be bought by itself, but haven't had to investigate yet.

 

Hope this helps. Al 

I don't know your builder-guy, but I'd consider looking for a new one. That makes no sense at all. You need oil at the pick-up-- the extra oil needed for the filer and cooler means you probably need more (not less) in the sump to start with.

I had similar problems with my old Gene Berg sump.  I purchased a new CB 1.5" sump, for better ground clearance, and a center plate with a drain plug.  I also ditched the stock mesh screen.  With the center plug the small nuts that hold the center plate on never have to be taken off, which decreases the chances for leaks.

 

As Al and Stan mentioned, if you're going to be 'carving the corners' you need an added sump.

One thing I didn't see mentioned here and pretty important if you're installing an additional sump, is that the oil pickup tube must be extended down into the new sump such that the end of the pickup is about 1/2"-3/4" up off of the drain plate.  Otherwise, you'll have a whole lot of oil down there in the deep sump that'll never get into the system because nothing sucks it up.

 

Oh, and I'm with Stan - the "advice" from your "better engine builder" is either bogus or he doesn't understand air-cooled VW engines for beans.  Find a better guy....

I was replacing the gaskets on the Clydes Buggies sump on the 1915. I installed one of those fancy 'forever filters' by CB performance. In doing so, I had to remove the sump extension tube and replace it with the rubber gasket, the smaller sump tube and the screen supplied by CB. I was nervous removing the extension, but the sump screen wouldn't fit without removing that tube.

 

http://www.cbperformance.com/P...asp?ProductCode=1755

 

(Sorry to thread jack...)

Ted

Hi, I builded a little sump by myself. A cool thing about this construction is, that I can use all ste stock VW things like seals, strainer and lid. so have a look on the pictures, if you like.

 

Best regards from Jan from Germany.

Jan - that is a pretty cool fabrication you came up with! 

Very nice work Jan!

 

-Art

Ted- Almost as long as I've been in this hobby people have said that the VW oil pump, because it's suction fed, should not be restricted at the intake. There are people who believe that when you make an aircooled VW rev faster and higher that even the stock screen is restrictive. I've never personally seen or heard of this damage, but I will not use anything that restricts the intake to the oil pump; that's what the full flow filter is for, and if anything big was to break off somewhere and try to make it's way up the intake tube you have bigger problems than a destroyed oil pump. Some people will hose clamp a "cow magnet" to the intake tube, and I've seen people use powerful magnets on the outside of the drain cover to collect stuff. Hard drive magnets are supposed to work well for this.     

 

Jan- That looks very well done, and would certainly help a stocker, but wouldn't have nearly enough capacity for an engine that revs appreciably higher.

So, you're saying I wasted 24.00? And that I should remove the screen?

Thanks for the info. The "EMPI" sump is going back on with the lower pick up tube.

Yes, and yes. Sorry, man-- some parts are just a bad idea (I've got quite a stash myself).

Ted, if that's the only thing you ever buy and not use you'll be doing well. You should see the shelves and boxes in my garage....

 

Jim- Good idea; there was somebody earlier this summer that toasted an engine autocrossing without a sump; iIrc he said the light would only come on "sometimes".

 

Hey- found it- https://www.speedsterowners.com...1#407609122182923961

 

 

I bet I can still return it to CB. They are great about returns. Now I'll need to see if I can get that lower sump tube extension to fit back on the oilpump pickup tube without removing the sump. The worst part is I *just* put a new gasket on there. I'm sure I'll destroy it trying to take the sump cover off.

 

Ted

Glad you're having so much fun Ted!

Oh you're fuuuunnny. 

 

Ted, you'll laugh about it later.  I'm past laughing.  I've moved on to the crying stage.

Thanks, Ron. I'll pull the fancy oil strainer in the next day or so. I took the opportunity to just order one of the high dollar sump plates with the fancy magnetic center drain. It will make oil changes simpler.

Hi Al,

 

the main thing wor me was not to enlarge the oil volume (also if it is around 500ccm bigger afterwards) . I wanted to put the oil intake in a deper position. My target was to provide the engine from pulling air instad of oil while i'm driving around the corne at high speed...

this never happened again after I installed this little external sump.

 

Jan

The best compromise is a 1.5 quart thinline sump. Enough capacity to matter, but still retains some ground clearance.

 

If you have an external full-flow filter, there doesn't shouldn't be ANY restriction on the pickup tube. And if you have any desire to autocross, you WILL starve an engine without a sump. I'm with Al on this, no restriction allowed on a suction-based pump. I even removed the CB screen cartridge filter inside the sump and put a straight tube.