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Type 1 Engine Starting problem

FM Former Member
Has anyone experienced starter related problems that arise when the motor is hot (i.e. operating temperature)

-The Starter in my older Intermeccanica (2084cc Type 1) is often times a lot less willing to turn over after motor has been running and engine is hot (for example: if you attempt to restart after just shutting off a few minutes to run inside a store or something) The starter will begin to tun over at a "normal" rate of speed and then suddenly begin turning over very slowly, (sounding similar to a near-dead battery) However, when the engine is cool it seems to start as expected.

I have replaced the starter (several times actually) and have checked the ground strap and determined it is making a good connection.

I have also inspected the positive cable (1 gauge cable, running from starter to bulkhead mounted in the front of car) The cable appears to be in good working order and the connections have been inspected and cleaned

I am rather frustrated at this point and much less willing to drive the "daily driver" than I would like to be.

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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FM Former Member
Has anyone experienced starter related problems that arise when the motor is hot (i.e. operating temperature)

-The Starter in my older Intermeccanica (2084cc Type 1) is often times a lot less willing to turn over after motor has been running and engine is hot (for example: if you attempt to restart after just shutting off a few minutes to run inside a store or something) The starter will begin to tun over at a "normal" rate of speed and then suddenly begin turning over very slowly, (sounding similar to a near-dead battery) However, when the engine is cool it seems to start as expected.

I have replaced the starter (several times actually) and have checked the ground strap and determined it is making a good connection.

I have also inspected the positive cable (1 gauge cable, running from starter to bulkhead mounted in the front of car) The cable appears to be in good working order and the connections have been inspected and cleaned

I am rather frustrated at this point and much less willing to drive the "daily driver" than I would like to be.

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

FM Former Member
Have you tried installing a relay from the battery to the starter solenoid? If your battery is located up front, you might be suffering from "voltage loss". This happens when you've got a long length of wire running from the battery (front) back to the starter (rear) and then back up to the ignition switch. It's a very simple fix.
FM Former Member
Glenn:
Yes, the car has a starter relay installed, I have experimented by driving it with and without the started relay "in the loop"... there is no difference in performance. Voltage at the starter seems to consistently hover in a perfectly acceptable range... with or without the starter relay.

Also, to clarify my understanding of the systems, the starter relay is added to ensure a proper level of voltage reaches the solenoid (which acts as a switch to turn on the starter) rather than providing any boost of voltage to the starter itself... isn't this correct?

Mike:
I had previously read the post from Joe regarding Type 1 shutting down... however, I have never experienced the engine shutting down entirely on it's own and then "not turning over at all" when asked to.

Though my temp gauge doesn't seem to be accurate (reads very high), Oil temperature appears to be in the 160 - 190 degree area (via a thermo inserted into dipstick tube).

Are there any preferred methods for acurately determining oil temp?
FM Former Member
Hey Dan,
I think you miss understood my solution. All cars come equipped with a starter solenoid relay, what I'm suggesting is purchasing an outboard high-amp relay. Lots of VWs have had this problem because the wiring running back & forth the length of the car would loose too much voltage (ie too long wire, too thin of a guage used).
So the solution was to install an outboard relay to power the starter. If you contact Gene Berg Enterprises in Orange, Ca they sell the starter solenoid kit for under $30 The kits are: GB 639-6 (6volts) & GB 639-12U (12volt)

Gene Berg
1725 North Lime St
Orange, CA 92865-4187
(877) 568-BERG

I hope they can help you out. Just call them and explain your problem(s). I have no affiliation with this company, but just a very happy customer who is very pleased with their products & customer service.
FM Former Member
Some replicas also have a voltage drop problem from the ignition switch to the coil - it's a very long wire run and most harnesses use a 16 or 14 gauge wire which can cause the voltage drop.

To fix this, mount a 12V relay at the back of the car and use the original coil wire to trip the relay. Then wire 12V+ from the large starter hot terminal through the relay to the coil's + terminal.
FM Former Member
Glenn:

Thanks for the reply, apologies for not being entirely clear earlier, I was indeed referring to an "outboard" relay as opposed to the solenoid that is physically attached to the 12v starter. (I have this additional relay installed)

With the engine at operating temp, I have tested the starter both with the outboard relay in line and without, with no obvious difference in performance. It seems to me that the issue is not so much the solenoid not having enough voltage (as the starter ALWAYS engages) as it is potentially voltage to the starter... the does indeed turn over, but not always at a rate of speed compatible with actually STARTING the engine. (i.e, sounds like when one has an extremely low battery)

Not sure if that helps to clarify my situation, but I do feel that the issue of solenoid is not entirely relevant to this particular problem
Ron ORon O1984/2010 IM, B.C. Canada
Before you add any relays etc., try this: check the voltage at the battery and check the voltage at the starter, when you start it. Is there a noticeable drop in voltage? If not, then another relay won't help. If it does, then going with the external relay may be the next step. Also, how good is your battery ground? Ideally, it should be attached to the motor block, but in a replica that is hard to do.
Ron

FM Former Member
Dan, have you been able to determine if the engine is more difficult to turn over when it is hot? If it is, that could be the problem. To check this, use a torque wrench on the Alternator and turn the engine over when it is cold. Then, when it is hot and giving you this problem, try turning the engine over with the torque wrench. Compare the two torque figures and you have either eliminated a potential problem, or found the problem.
FM Former Member
I agree with Ron Leonard and Ron Black's approaches to problem solving. There seeems to be a great tendency for people to jump immediately from symptom to remedy, bypassing the cause entirely! I know that people are trying to help, based upon their past experience, and this is good. But you should use these inputs only as "theories to be tested"...not as solutions to be instantly implemented.

You can test most all of the electrical theories with a simple multimeter in short order. The systematic approach is always best and cheapest in the long run. Remember: Symptom- cause-remedy.

Perhaps this is all self-evident to everyone, but reinforcement never hurts.
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