Which motor is a better value? Is one more dependable? Is there any significant weight difference? Is one more easily serviced and are the parts more readily available?
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Which motor is a better value? Is one more dependable? Is there any significant weight difference? Is one more easily serviced and are the parts more readily available?
Oh Boy! It's a good thing George is retired and Jake is on vacation.
-=theron
-=theron
According to Vintage Speedster site "VW produced over 29 million air-cooled Type 1 engines, so finding parts and service is never a problem." Produced in mass from 1949 to last couple of years when production ceased in Brazil and Mexico. Huge aftermarket production too from crank shaft, cylinder heads to new aluminium cases. TIV was produced only from 1968-1978 (VW-Porsche 914, Porsche 912E (1976), VW 411/412, and Model Type 2 bus/vans/campers (1972-1978)). The T1 engine has limits on HP and longevity but parts are 1/4 that of the TIV. If ya need >2100 cc displacement and HP - then TIV is way to go. Bottom line though is -- all are 30 year old engine designs! At least the TIV has standard real oil filter and aluminium (easily repairable) case -- base HP was like 76HP vice 40 or 53HP of T1.
Type 1 parts are typically cheaper and more readily available. Cheaper is the operative word here (both price and quality). Type 4 parts are typically more expensive and sometimes harder to find, but we've got a good network established, and anything can be found or made nowadays. As already said, the type 4 started life with significantly more output in stock form than a type 1, so it's already got a heads up over it's older brother. If done right, a type 4 will outlive a type 1, but that's a big if (referring to being done right). To do it right, you'll have to spend more, especially if you really want a killer large displacement / high output type 4; for that matter, a high output type 1, done right, costs a bunch too.
What kind of power and longevity are you seeking out of your engine? That might be the best place to start.
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
What kind of power and longevity are you seeking out of your engine? That might be the best place to start.
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
From what I can tell there is not a great deal of difference between the two, kinda the Ford Vs. Chev thing. You
To represent the .01 percentile...Type 4 rebuilt $5000, type 1 built and hopped up $3500, JDM Subaru EJ20 Turbo with less than 30000 miles $800 plus a KEP adapter plate $500. Now you have a motor pushing 230 hp stock with very little maintenance. Now lets do some quick calculations, an 1800lb car with 230hp gives you an estimated 0-60 time of 3.95 seconds. Now you say, the tranny cannot handle it, well with the $3700 you have saved so far, get a rebuilt Porsche 915 tranny for $2000 and you don't need to worry about it. Next, you argue the problem of it being water-cooled. Throw in a few lines and a radiator and you are good to go, SAW does it with one small rad. Now you have a real SPEEDster with little maintenance, air conditioning and heat! Plus you will never get embarrassed at the next street light. It might not be period correct, but it will be fun. Just my 2.0T cents worth
well. I see the Newbie section is working out for FAQs...
Theron, let me help....
Nationwide - SOC Members poled (so to speak), say:
46% are core T-1s
46% are core T-4s
2% are Nader Corvair holdouts
2% are Swift Boat Captains for Revisionist History. Actually the Swift Boat Captains' real grind was whether a T-1 or a T-4 would have better powered their Lambretta Taxi's in drunken races against the Vung Tau Tea Girls and Cowboys while the rest of us fought the real war.
3.99% are trying to wedge Porsche 6s into their Speedsters,
.01% are using Suby Power and seem to be happy with their choice!
Following this you will get some serious replies. Sorry, I just feel glib tonight!
Nationwide - SOC Members poled (so to speak), say:
46% are core T-1s
46% are core T-4s
2% are Nader Corvair holdouts
2% are Swift Boat Captains for Revisionist History. Actually the Swift Boat Captains' real grind was whether a T-1 or a T-4 would have better powered their Lambretta Taxi's in drunken races against the Vung Tau Tea Girls and Cowboys while the rest of us fought the real war.
3.99% are trying to wedge Porsche 6s into their Speedsters,
.01% are using Suby Power and seem to be happy with their choice!
Following this you will get some serious replies. Sorry, I just feel glib tonight!
Maybe we can add a sticky in the main directory for "read this first." That might help eliminate redundant threads, although there's nothing like a new post to rekindle the topic :-)
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
I like freds thinking but one other thing you have to do is add the fuel system requirements for the subaru engine since it is fuel injected, but for a one time hassle you eliminate a lot of hassles. If I personally had the talent to build and fabricate it would be a no brainer Suuuby engine would be a lot of fun.
my opinion on this discussed subject:
t4 is a better engine
t1 is a cheaper and more practical approach
t4 is a better engine
t1 is a cheaper and more practical approach
But can the subby motor be retrofitted to a VS/JPS or do you have to sell and start over with SAW. so the money you save on the subby motor may be lost via, the resale loss of old car and the profit margin on the SAW car.
Jerry, only John and Kirk can answer the question of whether they would take on the Suby "retrofit." If I was a betting man I would suggest that they would not tackle this project. I think that the word retrofit severely understates what is involved. The system in the SAW car is on the cusp of being perfected and it involved a great deal of time and effort (read money). I considered other builders when I wanted to have a car built for me and I chose to take a risk on an unproven product. In the long run, I think this will have been the best choice for me.
John H
John H
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Tough question. I personally feel the most important decision is choosing a good engine builder and working with him and accepting his input. With either engine format you can't go wrong nor will it be settled here. And of course a lot depends on your driving needs and style, how many miles you plan on driving per year, what type of miles, how long do you plan on keeping your car, etc.
The Type IV is a terrific engine, as is the T1. And I know who I would pick as the T4 builder. The only slight concern I have is there is a whole lot of ongoing effort being expended to dramatically raise the T4 performance bar, bi-annually there are new engine parts, parts treatments, etc., that are "must have"... With each improvement the price of the baseline keeps going up and up. Granted you get what you pay for and if you plan on keeping your McSpeedster for 100,000 miles in the long run the upgrades are must have. I just wish there were baseline combo options available without all of the nice but perhaps a luxury options for those of us that don't want to spend ten grand on and engine and transmission and we know we won't be keeping our cars for a decade.
I shouldn't use a NASCAR analogy but its die-hard fan base that built the sport are now seeing regional tracks loose race dates so NASCAR can open new markets out west and in the Mid-West. To bring it back around to Type IV, there is nothing wrong with the 1911 or the 2056 engines. Ideally while raising the bar the little ugly duckling engines aren't lost in the shuffle while developing engines with commix book names, if so another T4 builder will develop a niche market filling that modest demand.
The Type IV is a terrific engine, as is the T1. And I know who I would pick as the T4 builder. The only slight concern I have is there is a whole lot of ongoing effort being expended to dramatically raise the T4 performance bar, bi-annually there are new engine parts, parts treatments, etc., that are "must have"... With each improvement the price of the baseline keeps going up and up. Granted you get what you pay for and if you plan on keeping your McSpeedster for 100,000 miles in the long run the upgrades are must have. I just wish there were baseline combo options available without all of the nice but perhaps a luxury options for those of us that don't want to spend ten grand on and engine and transmission and we know we won't be keeping our cars for a decade.
I shouldn't use a NASCAR analogy but its die-hard fan base that built the sport are now seeing regional tracks loose race dates so NASCAR can open new markets out west and in the Mid-West. To bring it back around to Type IV, there is nothing wrong with the 1911 or the 2056 engines. Ideally while raising the bar the little ugly duckling engines aren't lost in the shuffle while developing engines with commix book names, if so another T4 builder will develop a niche market filling that modest demand.
Jerry, the Subaru engine will fit in the same area as the VW motor, I believe that it is actually a bit shorter. The main problem arising from mounting it in the stock VW location is that the oil pan is much lower in the Subaru motor. The option here is to actually shortern the oilpan by a few inches and having the engine run a quart low (this is done quite a bit and seems to cause no problems), or you can buy a oil pan that is made wider but shorter (these are actually available). You can see some details at www.ricola.co.uk , click 'my car', then 'Speedster', 'engine swap details', and finally 'Subaru Swap'. He had too do some firewall mods for the intercooler, but if you were using a non turbo model, should be normal.
Forgot the other .01%. I have a 912 motor... So far so good! Definatly sounds different. Pulls well too.
Check out this forum post.
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84102
It started out as a Type I thread and got really zaney. The one guy there, Danimal is a real piece of work and hates Type IV engines.
as with any post on the subject some really good points are made between the two powerplants. Overlook the yelling and there is plenty of solid data there.
Erik,
The 1911 and 2056 engines are not overlooked. Matter of fact we are making a new endeavor to keep the TIV growing in popularity and one of my schemes is to sell the 1911cc engine kit for very near what a 1776 TI would cost. The 1911 parts are easy to come by and I have hundreds of cranks and thousands o rods laying around that need to go to use!
The more people experience the difference, the more people they will tell and the revolution gets even more widely known. With the 1911 the only expensive part will really be buying the converrsion kit. The rest of it will nearly be given away!
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84102
It started out as a Type I thread and got really zaney. The one guy there, Danimal is a real piece of work and hates Type IV engines.
as with any post on the subject some really good points are made between the two powerplants. Overlook the yelling and there is plenty of solid data there.
Erik,
The 1911 and 2056 engines are not overlooked. Matter of fact we are making a new endeavor to keep the TIV growing in popularity and one of my schemes is to sell the 1911cc engine kit for very near what a 1776 TI would cost. The 1911 parts are easy to come by and I have hundreds of cranks and thousands o rods laying around that need to go to use!
The more people experience the difference, the more people they will tell and the revolution gets even more widely known. With the 1911 the only expensive part will really be buying the converrsion kit. The rest of it will nearly be given away!
Oh yea . . . well I think that Type IV engines $UCK ! ! ! ! !
Any chance of rakin' up some muck, or is this post too old?
They REALLY $UCK ! ! ! ! ! ! !
How' bout now?
Anything . . .
?
Any chance of rakin' up some muck, or is this post too old?
They REALLY $UCK ! ! ! ! ! ! !
How' bout now?
Anything . . .
?
I know you're out there . . . I can hear you reloading.
...uh, I think Vince is out riding his Harley and I'm still drooling over the outrageous Lamborghini that Joe Lampariello brought along on our Lake Arrowhead cruise! But, I can hear everyone else spooling-up -
Peace - Out!!
Peace - Out!!
volley ---- $UCK great volumes of air and gas producing tremendous reliable HORSE power --- BLOWing the doors off T1 equipt Speedsters? Ha, things must be slow to resurrect a 2 year old thread.
I was away.... Getting Married.. why am I always away when this post pops up??
Answer your own question...
www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry
When I got there I made a 94 MPH pass in the QTR mile and the 170HP engine was not touched for the entire trip... 3,450 miles in 4.5 days. The engine was based on one of my off the shelf kits and was assembled for the current Hot VWs build up story with no special assembly tricks..
Answer your own question...
www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry
When I got there I made a 94 MPH pass in the QTR mile and the 170HP engine was not touched for the entire trip... 3,450 miles in 4.5 days. The engine was based on one of my off the shelf kits and was assembled for the current Hot VWs build up story with no special assembly tricks..
congrats Jake....to you and your wife...
Michael
Michael
Congrats! Mr Raby! You must of finally got tried of drivin up to Atlanta.
3,450 miles in 4.5 days doesn't leave alot of time for honeymoonin. Congrats Jake
ed
ed
Jake -
I'm guessing that you gave your wife a manly MASSIVETYPEIV on your honeymoon - and not some puny TYPE1.
Congratulations - Here's wishing you and your new wife many years of Good Health and Prosperity!
I'm guessing that you gave your wife a manly MASSIVETYPEIV on your honeymoon - and not some puny TYPE1.
Congratulations - Here's wishing you and your new wife many years of Good Health and Prosperity!
TC, I love you, man, but you really need to have your head examined.
Mockulatory comments on the Type IV! Ouch!
Someone send a T4 Task Force to Massachussetts, quick! Scramble the Microbusses and 914s! Alert the media! Get my Trike!
(... and congrats, Jake. Right on, Jim.)
Mockulatory comments on the Type IV! Ouch!
Someone send a T4 Task Force to Massachussetts, quick! Scramble the Microbusses and 914s! Alert the media! Get my Trike!
(... and congrats, Jake. Right on, Jim.)
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YES ! ! ! !
I KNEW that there was a spark left in this old thread!
Raby, like an old Uncle asleep at a Holiday dinner, rumbles to
live and growls, "Shut up! Damned Type I kids . . . I wanna go . . .
an . . . ah . . . um . . . yawn . . .Type IV ! ! " Then goes back to sleep
'til the next time.
Nothing ever changes.
Now I just gotta perform a little CPR on that
"Pan versus Tube Frame" controversy . . .
I KNEW that there was a spark left in this old thread!
Raby, like an old Uncle asleep at a Holiday dinner, rumbles to
live and growls, "Shut up! Damned Type I kids . . . I wanna go . . .
an . . . ah . . . um . . . yawn . . .Type IV ! ! " Then goes back to sleep
'til the next time.
Nothing ever changes.
Now I just gotta perform a little CPR on that
"Pan versus Tube Frame" controversy . . .
You guys are a riot...
Thanks for the congrats!
Thanks for the congrats!
This thread has been sponsored in part by the....Nardi Horn Button Co.
... It can cure the sick, raise the dead and make the little girls talk outta their heads (forgive me Mose Allison)... OK TC, how's about an owners report on a two to three year old 2.6 litre Type4?
Some of you may recall the old flame war that got me into a Type4 engine. I've since (and finally) learned that there is always something 'better' or 'bigger' or whatever, right around the corner (case in point this twin-plug stuff)
I got off to a rocky start with my new engine but it got sorted out. Yes I could have purchased a few Type1 engines for what I paid for my Type4, but there was a whole lot of 'magic' inside that engine and the relative expense for that magic is pretty comparable, type1 to Type4.
Although characterized as a dragster or racing engine, I drive the car daily, whether it is stop and go out on the freeways, light-to-light where permissable in town and up and down the west coast, cruisin' from event to event.
Yes it will light up the tires. Yes it will cruise all day long at 80mph+ through the 100 degree central valley at 230 degrees thereabouts. It is rugged and reliable and I pass on most all threads concerned with over-heating, auxillary oil stuff and fan modes.
I have learned that power to spare means a lot of different things. It is an old man's joy to accelerate with authority without having to downshift. harnessing that power would have been better served with a five-speed transmission but the number of times I have found myself missing a higher 'fifth' I realize 130+ is fast enough... a closer third to fourth may get me through an uphill turn quicker, but what's coming down the mountain to possibly greet me, a boat-towing SUV?
Long ago I mentioned a trait with our cars that can be summed up as the 'oh yeah!' factor. The enthusiasm or shared excitement that comes with something unique. It has been priceless (LOL) opening up the engine bay and watching the jaws go slack..."what is it?" or "Man, that's a lot of engine..."
It is equally daunting to have a bulls-eye painted on your ass at those friendly little road tours when the huff-and-puff steel-bodied P-cars want to try and race you. Or they 'missed you' at our last wine tour. My ass, they wanted to try and carve a notch in their bedpost.
So I made a committment to an engine platform a little out of the norm. It is now resale time and I would like to recover a particle of what I spent, I don't think that is unrealsitic but it certainly creates a new set of hurdles.
The car is in great shape. If money were no object I'd do some additional cosmentics but I like my car looking like it has lived a little. The supporting performance equipment alone is equal in cost to a mid-powered type1 engine.
There are cheap replicas and there are expensive replicas and I am somewhere in between. Those on this forum can understand that dilema. Joe-Car-Buying-Public doesn't have a clue.
My car-building decisions of 2002-2003 were valid then; I got power, tons of torque and a Hell of a ride. I got it with Raby-built Type4. Is it better than a type1? My reason for selling my monster replica has nothing to do with engine choices but rather aesthetics (sp?). I just have a different vision of my next speedster and believe it or not it might have a smaller engine!
Probably 10,000+ miles on the engine. Gets about 20 MPG. Uses about a quart of oil in 600-700 miles (system holds seven quarts).Raby-built tranny still shifts clean and effortless. Spins through 6500 RPM without blinking, redlines near 7200 and has power in the sweet-spot 3000-4500 making 60 MPH-100MPH nothing more than a blink.
Is that the sound of one hand clapping as I take my bows or rather one horn honking? You be the judge!
Some of you may recall the old flame war that got me into a Type4 engine. I've since (and finally) learned that there is always something 'better' or 'bigger' or whatever, right around the corner (case in point this twin-plug stuff)
I got off to a rocky start with my new engine but it got sorted out. Yes I could have purchased a few Type1 engines for what I paid for my Type4, but there was a whole lot of 'magic' inside that engine and the relative expense for that magic is pretty comparable, type1 to Type4.
Although characterized as a dragster or racing engine, I drive the car daily, whether it is stop and go out on the freeways, light-to-light where permissable in town and up and down the west coast, cruisin' from event to event.
Yes it will light up the tires. Yes it will cruise all day long at 80mph+ through the 100 degree central valley at 230 degrees thereabouts. It is rugged and reliable and I pass on most all threads concerned with over-heating, auxillary oil stuff and fan modes.
I have learned that power to spare means a lot of different things. It is an old man's joy to accelerate with authority without having to downshift. harnessing that power would have been better served with a five-speed transmission but the number of times I have found myself missing a higher 'fifth' I realize 130+ is fast enough... a closer third to fourth may get me through an uphill turn quicker, but what's coming down the mountain to possibly greet me, a boat-towing SUV?
Long ago I mentioned a trait with our cars that can be summed up as the 'oh yeah!' factor. The enthusiasm or shared excitement that comes with something unique. It has been priceless (LOL) opening up the engine bay and watching the jaws go slack..."what is it?" or "Man, that's a lot of engine..."
It is equally daunting to have a bulls-eye painted on your ass at those friendly little road tours when the huff-and-puff steel-bodied P-cars want to try and race you. Or they 'missed you' at our last wine tour. My ass, they wanted to try and carve a notch in their bedpost.
So I made a committment to an engine platform a little out of the norm. It is now resale time and I would like to recover a particle of what I spent, I don't think that is unrealsitic but it certainly creates a new set of hurdles.
The car is in great shape. If money were no object I'd do some additional cosmentics but I like my car looking like it has lived a little. The supporting performance equipment alone is equal in cost to a mid-powered type1 engine.
There are cheap replicas and there are expensive replicas and I am somewhere in between. Those on this forum can understand that dilema. Joe-Car-Buying-Public doesn't have a clue.
My car-building decisions of 2002-2003 were valid then; I got power, tons of torque and a Hell of a ride. I got it with Raby-built Type4. Is it better than a type1? My reason for selling my monster replica has nothing to do with engine choices but rather aesthetics (sp?). I just have a different vision of my next speedster and believe it or not it might have a smaller engine!
Probably 10,000+ miles on the engine. Gets about 20 MPG. Uses about a quart of oil in 600-700 miles (system holds seven quarts).Raby-built tranny still shifts clean and effortless. Spins through 6500 RPM without blinking, redlines near 7200 and has power in the sweet-spot 3000-4500 making 60 MPH-100MPH nothing more than a blink.
Is that the sound of one hand clapping as I take my bows or rather one horn honking? You be the judge!
Paul and I have put in about 3000 miles driving/touring together and other than a freak fan belt toss now and then, that car is fabulous. We will do another 2000 miles together as we "tour" up to the IM BBQ and back down the west coast. I remember the first time we went to LA together and he was following me. I passed a long truck but there was not enough room for Paul to follow me so I kept an eye on the mirror waiting for him to make his move. When I got past the truck, Paul was infront of me! He had ZOOMED up the right side and must have been doing at least, hell I have no idea and really don't want to know. It was FAST!
I don't get into the T-1 vs T-4 battles, but I can say Paul's engine is amazing. If you want a fast car that is one of a kind, look at Paul's. It is sorted and special. His car also has the coldest fog lamps in the states!
I don't get into the T-1 vs T-4 battles, but I can say Paul's engine is amazing. If you want a fast car that is one of a kind, look at Paul's. It is sorted and special. His car also has the coldest fog lamps in the states!
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Dale and Paul - not to thread hijack - but when you are NB to the IM BBQ, consider our house your house. Love to have you guys spend the night and Steve loves to BBQ. Invite extended to right seaters as well obviously.
What is it anyway about men and burning meat on an open fire?
angela
What is it anyway about men and burning meat on an open fire?
angela
Thanks Angela. We are planning to stay in or just pass Roseburg to make it a bit easier to spend the next night just pass Seattle. Bruce will not be traveling with us due to another commitment but you would certainly be a welcome addition. The event is certainly not an IM only event.
BTW, I don't do well on a BBQ and prefer to let Michele heat my meat.
BTW, I don't do well on a BBQ and prefer to let Michele heat my meat.
Angela, I think it goes back when hunt'n mastadons with spears, gett'n women with a club and paint'n graffiti on cave walls was man's work. Now we merely get the spear shove up our wahzoo's, pepper sprayed by irate females and hang wall paper in our caves. Women have evolved while men have de-volved to the point we seek our masculinity by burning meat over an open fire.
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Im with TC Type 4 are a pain to plumb for exhaust and more costly
If you do all the recemened service Like pulling the heads near 60,000 miles its a real hassle.
I am now leaning Into the T-i direction.
A surperb setup with TF-1 engine case ,Nickie jugs and spit heads best crank and rods.In the 1900 cc range with or without a mild turbo , would be plenty peppy and reliable. and still be less than a T4 2056cc
Im just waiting to see who sets the standards.
If you do all the recemened service Like pulling the heads near 60,000 miles its a real hassle.
I am now leaning Into the T-i direction.
A surperb setup with TF-1 engine case ,Nickie jugs and spit heads best crank and rods.In the 1900 cc range with or without a mild turbo , would be plenty peppy and reliable. and still be less than a T4 2056cc
Im just waiting to see who sets the standards.
I decided to do a type I using nickies, CE heads with dual springs, ceramic lifters, long H rods, JE pistons, 9.5 CR, lightweight wrist pins, dry sump, redline fuel injection, MSD 6AL ignition, MSD distributor, autocraft 2 stage oil pump for dry sump, DTM fan shroud, full and careful balance, cryogentic treatment of steel parts, oil shed on crank and rods, bearing treatments, pent roof hi deck aluminum case with 10mm ARP studs, graphite coating on piston skirts, ceramic coating on piston tops, cylinder heads and exhaust ports, engine is 84 mm stroke and 94mm bore. Not exactly 1900cc's but what the heck? I wanted to see what a type I might do by throwing recent technology, hi tech parts, and $$$ at it. You can see many photos starting at http://www.pbase.com/tmpusfugit/image/53010201 The engine is now in the car, I have not yet done a dyno test on the engine, don't know if I will. Just working out the bugs at the moment. More recent photos at http://www.pbase.com/tmpusfugit/image/59190608
Paul, did I read your post correctly? You have a 2.6 liter engine in your car, as in 2600cc? That's huge! And I thought my car was fast.....
2615 CC; I think we are now getting in excess of 210HP, maybe as high as 230HP out of it. I have a binder with all the details of the innardzzz. It dyno'd real strong even with the crappy IDAs before they got sorted out.
It has nickys and wedgies and "D" cups or ports or whatever and on and on. I think it was Jake's An-I-o-latorTerminatorAlligator model. I don't think he builds too many of these as they are pretty demanding even for custom engine builder- fabricator-An-I-o-latorTerminatorAlligator Trainer.
It has nickys and wedgies and "D" cups or ports or whatever and on and on. I think it was Jake's An-I-o-latorTerminatorAlligator model. I don't think he builds too many of these as they are pretty demanding even for custom engine builder- fabricator-An-I-o-latorTerminatorAlligator Trainer.