Type 1 vs Type 4

In my research prior to purchasing a speedster, I am learning a lot about VW engines. Of course, since I knew next to nothing, a lot is relative. One of the confusing things is Type 1 vs Type 4. I have been on Raby's website as well as some others. He gives a lot of info. I have communicated with VS (they say the 2.3 lite Type 4 will not configure). JPS offers the Type 4 on their website so I assume he will put one in his car, but he doesn't say what size. I'm trying to figure out if a Type 4 is better than a Type 1. What are the good points of each? I'm mostly interested in driving around town, short trips, not a daily driver, and I want acceleration over top speed. And I definitely want a heater and would like A/C if possible. Any input is appreciated.

Type 1 engines are still being manufactured; type 4 engines were used for a very short period of time in the VW 411, 412, and Porsche 914. Type 4 engines are heavier and slightly more robust but aftermarket parts and equipment for them are limited and more expensive than type 1 counterparts.

A type 1 engine looks "Porsche period correct" in a Speedster replica engine compartment and a type 4 does not. I personally find a type 1 engine easier to work on (tuneups) in a Speedster engine compartment.

For an around town car with killer accelleration but docile street manners an engine build similar to my current 2,110 hooked up to a close ratio Porsche 901 5-speed transaxle (like mine) will embarrass just about anything you run into on the street except for a Viper.

Merged header systems are available with heater boxes and heat/defrost booster fan kits are available. Intermeccanica offers a very nice air conditioning installation that does not clutter up the engine compartment too badly when used with a dual-carb type 1 engine.

Comfort and convenience in a daily driver almost mandates an IM convertible "D" (better top, visibility, heat/defrost, roll up windows, comfortable seats with recline adjustment) depending on the duration of your trips and local climate.

(Message Edited 10/30/2002 2:53:04 PM)

George, Can you give some tech specifics on your engine? Also, who built it? How much did it add to the cost of your car over the 1600 that IM uses in their base car? I think I read in another Forum message something about 0-60 times of 5 sec. Is that right? Do you attribute a lot of that to the tranny? Sounds like a mean machine.

Jake, would you like to add your two cents here re the old T1 Vs T4 debate?

Nope....
I'm tired of the re-iterations of this.

All I can say is that I have been a VW enthusiast since the age of 8. I built my first engine a year later and the first one for a paying customer at age 13.

With that being said I will also say that The only cars I drive or VW/Porsche based, and I have no "SUV" or watercooled vehicle at all. Each of these cars must transport me from/to anywhere I go including long trips.

I currently have 5 daily driver street cars all 5 of them are TIV powered, and only one is bone stock(73 914 2.0 145,000 Original miles).

My "Street Teror" is a 66 Beetle with a 2332cc TI making 222 BHP, it is not driver friendly, does not get 15 MPG. The engine is built for pure power, something a TI is good for, it lives from aftermarket parts (the only thing VW made was the case and hardware) For play toys that hardly get driven I like TI engines, for drivers, with more power I like TIV engines.

TIV parts are a tad more expensive but thats simply because many items are "Porsche" based and that normally adds a bit anyway....

For me TIV all the way, I ship 75 engines/ year from my shop, both TI and TIV I base my opinion on which ones I have the least amount of hassle with. Either way you go as long as it is done right you will have a great engine. See my site and do some research on the TIV and see what you think www.aircooledtechnology.com

Uh, Jake, type 4 engine parts are not "Porsche based". Most of the type 4 engines are totally VW through and through and the 914-4 was sold as a VW in Europe. You can go to a Porsche dealer and order parts that were common to both engines and pay more for them if you want to, or you can order the same parts for a 411 or 412 from your VW dealer. Most (if not all) of these parts will have the VW logo on them.

The 914-6 was offered somewhat later with the Porsche 911 6 cylinder SOHC engine to silence European and American critics of the 914.

(Message Edited 10/31/2002 3:56:39 PM)

George,
Enough already! You opinions concerning Type I vs. Type IV, speedster vs. convertible D, IM vs. everybody else have been expressed in excruciating detail many times over the past year and a half. You have a nice car- I'm sure it is the best of all possible cars to you. However, your car may not embody automotive perfection to someone else. Believe it or not, there are other opinions concerning relative value that are worth considering. It seems odd to me that someone who espouses to believe in no absolutes in the universe (brainstorming thread) could truly believe that there is only one way to build a "correct" replica 356. Does this not seem to be an oxymoron to you? I believe in absolutes, and in an absolute God, and in free will. I also drive a REPLICA car, which really matters very little in the big scheme of things- and believe it or not, is exactly what I want (even though it isn't an IM or a covertible D).

Stan, I think everyone should do what they want to do; new people tune into this forum all the time, so when Jake blows the type 4 trumpet I just like to level the playing field a little. As Pogo Possum (Walt Kelly) said, "To each his dag-nabbed, blue-eyed own."

My car is FAR from perfect, but it was conceived and built with reliable high performance in mind instead of just selecting from a builder's limited menu options, because there is more than one way to skin a cat...

George,
Level the playing field? You're steam-rolling it flat. I've got a 1776 Type I engine- It roughly approximates the performace of the original, and I'm an value oriented kind of guy. But once you get much above the "1776, dual Kadron" level, the relativly small savings in parts costs of a T1 vs a T4 becomes pretty inconsequential. Horsepower is all about money- T1 or T4. Jake makes some good points based on experience, and dyno time. This all kind of strikes me as the "my dad can beat up your dad" thing. Pogo aside, does it really matter so much to be right?

Gee Guys, I didn't mean to start a war. I just wanted some opinions. Nobody addressed two of my questions, i.e., heater and a/c. Care to comment on those two? Thanks.

Jim,
You didnt start a war thats just George! Jake is one hell of an established engine builder. The key is that this is his businness. Jake is not a part time engine builder. He is damn good at it and one of the best! Opinions are opinions facts are facts! Money talks and bullshit walks. Lets put this subject to rest.
Jerry

ix-nay on the A/C.Redudndant with top down and potential power-robber. I like having the heater as I drive my car all year. The defroster on my Vintage works well on the early morning dew, but I still keep a couple towels handy.
My vote.
MM

I love it when you guys get fiesty.
I never intended to travel to the Maryland area, but since I 'met' George through this forum, I'm gettin' there someday and
I'm goin' to load my wagon with all my high-dollar fire-power for our range competiton and
I'll be carryin some extra tires for all our wheel-to wheel adventures and about the time I'm through kickin' his ass on the asphalt berms, my sis and her big boat aught to come steamin' into port spinake at the ready and we can take it out on the water next...

Oh boy, oh boy, call my travel agent, "Hello, Jake...? Yes I'd like to book a party of, uh 150 at last count"

I agree with Paul and others on the A/C question. I think it's about a 2k option and mine is sitting in pieces on the garage floor. Good riddance. Heat....hmmmmmm.....yea, there is some. towels are indeed a good idea. The defroster did work decently on evening dew, but I don't know about real frost. Maybe in TN we will have a mild Winter again.
John H.

Medicine Man,
Hey.... what the hell happen to the "ghost writer" idea? You're funny!Sould I load the Yellow Tub with my arsenal & put a pseudo sail on my Scarab & caravan behind you? (I need the miles...LOL)~R

I do feel a caravan in my future...you know what they say, " When you gettin' run outta' town, best to make it look like you're leading a parade..."or something like that.

Feeling a bit supercillious 'cuz of local RE agents,
MM

Oooooh, Paul! Poppin' caps, burnin' rubber, and upwinding me? Be still, my heart.

You want Military high-power or .22 50 meter bench rest? How about pistols - .45 or .22? Open road would be fun for the cars, and my spinnaker is ready to hoist, baby...

Bi-coastal greetings (as opposed to bi-polar)all,
I was initially concerned about the interstate transportation of firearms, but a few phone calls and I'm assured that, as most my stuff has 'Daisy' scribed on the barrel, I'll be OK... Rick your stuff is too serious! The City of Oakland is jealous of your cache!

The motorcycle contingent is closing ranks though. Seems their weaponry is, uh, best suited to the street?
With a full spinaker,
MM

Medicine Man,,, No worries, all the serial numbers have been ground off (LOL). Now back to the original program....

JIM, my 2 pesos worth say NO on the AC (put the $$$ into HP) and my VS heater system is very adequate, especially with half the tonneau zipped up.~R

IMO A/C is pretty ineffective in a Speedster replica and depending on the installation can cause problems when servicing the engine; it is also extra weight and will increase engine operating temperatures when operative. I had a new 1974 type 181 (Thing) with A/C and it was a joke; I would not have bought it intentionally with A/C but it was the last new type 181 available in the USA.

George,
Ever heard of an 039 part number??? Thats Porsche..

Drive down my way and lets go through some twisties held at redline for 15 solid minutes and see whos engine survives or takes teh abuse better...and the one I'm gonna use is factory and never been rebuilt, it came factory in my Porsche...

Wanna run long distance, came line up next to the 912E..

I'm tired of your attitude just lie everyone else here is, you don't like what I have to say and thats the way it is...stop pounding your own chest long enough to use your brain.

What you have is not the best because you own it, when you assemble it you can be proud, till that time realize you bought a car, and you bought an engine, and you are buying another engine....you are no different than someone that bought a new Civic from a Honda dealer and droped it off for an airbox and superchip.....

You started the attacks here on me, I never mentioned your name...Get a life, or get your hands dirty. Don't bother making a reply post, I won't be reading the non sense.

I think another Pogo Possum quote goes, "we have met the enemy, and he is us". What do you think? I think I may take my wife's advise, and spend a bit less time on this nonsense.

James, for heating, you can get blowers that sit in line with the heater boxes which will aide the delivery of hot air to the interior. From those blowers the forced hot air travels through metal tubes of some sort. These act as heat sinks cooling down the air by the time it gets inside. Some have rerouted the hot air from the heater boxes with flex tubing more directly into the cab beside the seats, this has not solved the defrosting of the windows.

I think several have made a good argument supporting the use of as much of the original tin, dog house shroud, with thermostat and internal air valves, dog hse oil cooler to make it a specific request if your are hoping to have heat in these cars from the oem engineering. (George,How has IM installed the heating?)

The direction that I am persuing and some others maybe as well is the use of the heated oil circulated through an aftermarket car heater mounted beneith my dash which blows through defroster vents as well as down at the floor. A couple of things I've not worked out yet is how quickly the engine temp will get up to a usable range. And the current draw of this heaters blower draining my battery when idling around town. Wheather has recently gotten cold to where the in vivo testing is under way.

My 2 cents! I have a Raby T4 in my Vintage Speedster. I love it!
It goes into the Speedster with NO problems. If you want a T4, forget having a heater or A/C .. they will not fit.

Why to I like the T4 .. POWER! Great HP and torque .. And I know this engine will out last a T-1 .. The T4 is a stronger built engine.

Bob, glad to see the engine is working out well for you...have you taken it to 6500Rpm yet?

Victor, your hot oil heater with fan sounds a lot like the aftermarket hot coolant heater I had in my MG TD in 1955; it had three flaps - one on each side and one pointing rearward - and a wheezing fan. It sat on the drive tunnel under the dash, and if you reached down and stuck your hand next to an open flap in the winter you could kinda/sorta feel a slight temperature change. Maybe yours will work better...

The IM with heater box exhaust and "fresh air" shroud channels the hot air forward and is ducted to an under-dash box housing the 3-speed fan. Ducts from the box and a single control route cold or hot air to the defrost vents, under dash area, or both. The fan is a bit noisy...

George,
I had a '63 tr3 whose heater rattled until the fan motor picked up sufficient speed. My type one aftermarket solution is coming along, I post it under 'heating our tubs' thread.