If one were going to build a type 4 who is the premier engine builder at this time? FAT? This engine is not for the 356 I’m building with Beck. Thanks.
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The "premier" T4 builder at this time (and indeed of all time) would be Jake Raby. He's forgotten more than most people will ever know about how to build the perfect T4... assuming you can pony up the many, many tens of thousands of dollars and do everything Jake's way without asking questions or offering input. If you meet these criteria, you might be accepted as a candidate for one of his engines. Approval may come after your application and statement of net worth makes it through the review process.
Greg Aronson sold FAT several years ago to Rimco (a SoCal VW machine shop), and is no longer involved. For a while, Roland Rascon was building engines for Rimco/FAT, but with his passing last year, I'm not sure who they have building now.
There is a yawning hole in the ACVW world, waiting for a T4 expert to step into the sub-$25K breach.
@Stan Galat wrote: "The "premier" T4 builder at this time (and indeed of all time) would be Jake Raby. He's forgotten more than most people will ever know about how to build the perfect T4... assuming you can pony up the many, many tens of thousands of dollars and do everything Jake's way without asking questions or offering input. If you meet these criteria, you might be accepted as a candidate for one of his engines. Approval may come after your application and statement of net worth makes it through the review process."
I wonder what George Brown would have to say on this? He and Jake used to have royal battles on here...and the rest of us would sit back and watch. Not necessarily on T4 engines, but air cooled in general. 
It's entirely possible to be a legitimate expert without being an egomaniac. This truism was lost in those battles royal.
George was right about 99% of the time, but he expressed himself in a way that made people want to find the 1% crack, insert a splitting wedge into it, and start flailing away with a sledge hammer.
I hear Pat Down might be getting into building type IV...
I really don't know the nuances of the type4, other than big power is expensive.
I do know that Glenn (Curtis?) rebuilt Cory's type4. Maybe an east coast build possibility without giving up a testicle?
I'd volunteer but I think I'm better off sticking with type1 since I'm way more familiar.
The only reason it has to be a type 4 is that it’s for a 914. I have a friend who has 2 914s and would consider selling his all original 1973 1.7 L with 95k miles. It’s very nice but I think I would want more than stock power.
Great idea, 200hp would be a great addition to a 914 ... a P 6cyl would work too...
BTW, I went to buy one last year and sat in it... fortunately the top was off, had to pass on that one.
I had a new '72 couple years after I got out of college. '73 is a good year since it has the side shift 5 speed vs the tail shifter (which some say gets sloppy when bushing wear) plus the 1.7L pumps out 79 hp. The later 1.8L was 84 and the 2L was 99 but both at higher RPMs. They have less quirks than a high power T1 - the lower end is strong, and the case doesn't very often need line boring. Case is aluminum (a very few were magnesium) so can be easily welded. Hp is limited by the non-adjustable electronic fuel injection so that means carbs or aftermarket injection. I've never really heard of overheating issues.
I rebuilt mine after about 120k miles - I added dual webers, 94 mm P&C, a valve job, Bursh exhaust and electronic ignition. I didn't know better - I left the FI cam in case and didn't crack case. That left a considerable Hp gain on the table. I should have replaced the cam but there wasn't any internet help back then.
Seems heads cracking around valves is biggest issue. They can be welded and there are new heads available. 60-80 Hp can be gained with using the 2.0l crank (71 mm throw vs 66 mm), a new cam and larger P&C. Vinny recently did the T4 for his Puma.
I've got a 1.8L and a 2.0L in my FL barn that Danny can practice on. Both from rusty NJ 914s - so running when pulled. One has dual Solex carbs and the 2L has dual holley-webers. Parts to rebuild for higher Hp is about $1k (plus cabs & exhaust) - so not bad.
I would have liked a solid Type 4 in my speedster but as I'm not looking for huge power (anything beats the original specs) but ... reasons ..
Pat Downs just had shoulder surgery but after he heals he will be building Type IV's.
My friend Walter had a '74 914 2.0 SE. It was black with the yellow trim, and is the only 914 that ever really got my heart pumping. It's too bad, somebody rear-ended him and broke the tail of the trans and he let it sit and molder for YEARS and years and finally sold it.
I ended up buying the '72 911 project car of his from his brother, then sold that after 6 years. That is the one car I regret selling.
Chico's Performance in Arcadia does Type 4's and 914's. Some of them go out with turbo's no them too. He is close with Pat Downs who, currently, isn't doing Type 4's
Bruce
Yup Danny. We all have the one we regret selling. Mine was a 73 914 2.0 SE. I guess maybe I’m trying to get it back.
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This is the 73 1.7 I’m thinking about buying. Next to my Spyder on the Blueridge Parkway.
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@aircooled posted:Chico's Performance in Arcadia does Type 4's and 914's. Some of them go out with turbo's no them too. He is close with Pat Downs who, currently, isn't doing Type 4's
Bruce
He is now.
@dlearl476 posted:Beautiful. My buddy that just bought the RSK had one like it last year.
Love that green.
Your buddy looks like he has a flat 6. He’s got the 5 lug Fuchs.
If I got this car I’d just keep it simple. I’d like to have a dependable ~150hp Type 4 and some 4 lug Fuchs with maybe a bit more rubber.
Dellortos didn’t sell so this would be a nice home.
@550 Phil posted:Your buddy looks like he has a flat 6. He’s got the 5 lug Fuchs.
If I got this car I’d just keep it simple. I’d like to have a dependable ~150hp Type 4 and some 4 lug Fuchs with maybe a bit more rubber.
Dellortos didn’t sell so this would be a nice home.
It was a home made -6.
@Stan Galat posted:Those two ideas might be mutually exclusive. A 150 hp T4 isn't going to need 48 Dellortos.
Exactly. 150 hp type4 will be happiest with 40s. As will the guy pushing the go-pedal.
Thanks Greg. My buddy just bought one of those flat bed air cooled VW trucks and needs some cash to work on it. Might be a good time to hit him up for the 914. Can the Dells be rejetted? I imagine I’d need near 3L displacement for 48s. Even the 2.65L Fat type 4 had 40 Webers.
@WOLFGANG posted:Seems heads cracking around valves is biggest issue. They can be welded and there are new heads available. 60-80 Hp can be gained with using the 2.0l crank (71 mm throw vs 66 mm), a new cam and larger P&C.
AFAIK, it was the 2.0 that suffered from cracked heads. Lots better stuff on the market now.
@WOLFGANG posted:I've got a 1.8L and a 2.0L in my FL barn that Danny can practice on. Both from rusty NJ 914s - so running when pulled. One has dual Solex carbs and the 2L has dual holley-webers. Parts to rebuild for higher Hp is about $1k (plus cabs & exhaust) - so not bad.
If I ever make it to Florida with a pickup truck, I'll take you up on that offer Greg. Lots of good parts in there I think.
I don't think it would be hard at all to get 150hp out of either one. Basically a stock rebuild of the 2.0 with better heads and bigger pistons and a good cam would yield that number easily.
From what I've seen and read over the years, they aren't much different than a type1. The aluminum case is tougher and heavier, and less prone to getting pounded out by the crank. I know Lenny's 2270 makes a ton of torque.
http://www.s262612653.websiteh...Andrews/dellorto.htm
Thought this was good information for what carbs will work for what applications. Based on this I would need to build a Type 4 of 2.5L or more capable of 6500-7000 rpms. That's a pretty high order. And I answered my own question. There is a very limited range of venturi size I can use with my 48 Dells. So it looks like I would have to build a very expensive beastly Type 4 just to use these 48 Dells. If I want a dependable 150hp Type 4 probably more like 40 Webers. Go big or go home??? Think I shoot an email to Pat Downs and see what he thinks.
My buddy decided to keep both of his 914s. Smart man. Everyone knows that 2 914s are better than 1. Well at least I learned one thing. If I ever decide to use the 48 Dells I’ll have to build one large engine. Who knows maybe I’ll put a Type 4 in the 356 I’ll be building with Carey in a few years. Dellorto stopped making carburetors in 1989. I’ve had them since 1999. Holding on to them a few more years seems reasonable.
1828
How about changing to a smaller venturi size and rejetting?
Parts seem to be available from CB- Venturi is only $8.95
7207 DRLA Main Venturi (specify size) (cbperformance.com)
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@WOLFGANG That's a good tip, but only as a last resort. Basically, Dellorto 48s are never a good choice for our typical engines of less than 2.4L.
The issue is not the jetting. Jetting will be about the same regardless of Dellorto 36 or 45 or 48. The problem is the size of the "throat". The 48's throats are too big for our small engine's vacuum to get the jets to work right. One trick, as you mentioned, is to make the throat smaller with (for example) 36mm vents; which has the effect of making the 48 work like a 40, kind of.
Of course, that begs the question, "why didn't you just start with 40s?"
If all you have is Dell 48s, and you have a "full size" engine, you can make them work. I had Dellorto 48 Tri-Jets on my 2332. But it takes a series of compromises to get them street drivable. First off, yes, choke them down to 36mm vents. Next, heim joint linkage is mandadory as balance adjustment is hyper touchy. Idle was best at 1100, (butterflies would start closing below that), and I could never tune it better than the rich side. And, I don't know if I ever could pull enough vacuum down the throats to get the Tri-Jets to come in (even at 2332, the engine might have been just too small).
So, other than the parking lot "mine's bigger than yours" zipper check when you can say "yep, them's Dellorto 48 Tri-Jets", there's not really a good reason to have them.
If I were 550 Phil, I'd sell them or trade them. What I would personally do with new-in-the-box Dell 48s is display them.
^ I agree with every word of Mark's post. I had a set of tri-jets on a 2332 as well, and I'd also bet the 3rd jet never activated.
HA HA. I’ve actually thought about making them into book ends.
I’ve got 2 years to go until I start my 356 build. I’ll be taking delivery when I’m 64-65. I’ve had 5 “kit” cars, 3 spyders, an intermeccanica and a Caterham Super 7. I’m saving my pennys. This last car will be THE car. If Carey somehow perfects a 911 powered 356C SC I’m in. If he doesn’t I’ll look at other options. If Pat Downs says he can build me a 2.7L Type 4 using my Dells that’s drivable and stuff it into a Conv D that would be great. Then there’s always the stroker Outfront 2.6L Suby. All I know is I’ve got a long time to wait and I’m going to leave my options open….but they would make some awesome looking bookends.
I was going to type something to the effect of what Mark wrote, but was secretly hoping he would check in and do it for me. You see, the man LIVED it. And it was a long and somewhat painful journey.
Honestly, for a street-driven 2.5 or even 2.7 liter, it will be REAL WORLD DRIVABLE(like you want) with 45s.
48 Tri-jets are for racing. Period. Either road or drag, doesn't matter. They really aren't made for around-town manners.
Bookends it is. That’s probably why Jake Raby sold them to me 23 years ago. Probably couldn’t use them.
Drag racers really like big carbs because where they really give is at WOT. Since WOT hp numbers are the way most people compare engines ("it made XXX hp on the dyno"), it pays them to just bolt on a set of bad-boys for that vanity pull. It's how the world ended up with 51.5 IDA kits on the street.
It's also why engine builders focused on drag racing (and that's almost all of them) like carbs better than EFI. "Transition" and how an engine behaves at partial throttle is inconsequential in drag racing, so a "dyno tuned" engine is generally optimized to make the most possible HP at WOT, which may or may not be optimal for partial throttle applications.
I've had the "dyno tuned" 200 HP 2332, but I've only driven 2 ACVW powered cars that delivered a crushing, big-bore V8, crazy-fast feel in the seat - Rich Drewek's old red car with the 2.6L T4 and @DannyP's somewhat (very?) surprising sub-2.2L T1. The commonality between the two was how they behaved in transition and partial throttle. It's worth noting that both had crank-fired ignition, proving that 95% of all carburation problems are ignition, but regardless - unless I'm mistaken, they both had Weber 44 IDFs. A drag-racer would say they were both undercarburated, and a guy like Anabel Chico would have 51.5s on both of them to get another 10 more "zipper-check" (thanks for that, @RS-60 mark) horsepower at WOT.
Those 48s are worth a lot more on TheSamba than as bookends, but I don't generally get $1500 bookends (your mileage may vary). I'd put the (free) ad up over there, ask $2000, and mention you bought them from Jake Raby - one of Jake's groupies will pay a premium just because they passed through his hands.
But back to your car, IMHO, the ultimate setup (for a "D" anyhow) would be a big T4 built by Pat Downs with EFI and crank-fire by Danny or Mario Velotta.
Good luck, and Merry Christmas @550 Phil Phil.
Always sage advise Stan. Planning on copying an Emory outlaw. He always does a gold fan shroud either on a type 4 or a 4 cylinder chopped 911 engine. I was going to do a gold intake manifold on a Subaru. That gold fan shroud on a type 4 sure would look sweet.
I’m sure you’ll have a great Christmas Stan surrounded and worshiped by that big brood of yours.
Pat Downs response.
Hi Phillip, yes I would be happy to build you a type-4 engine. 48mm carbs on a large cc type-4 are fine. If anything, all I would need to do is go down on the venturi size. When my arm heals, I will be building a 78x104 type-4 for Greg at Vintage. This is probably the engine size you will want to go with, 2650cc.
The only cooling we can do on this large of an engine is the Porsche shroud and an original 911 fan assembly.
I left out the part about the price. A Type 4 will be $7-8k more than the 2.6L stroker Subaru and probably not as powerful. But I think this is the way to go. I’m sure a 915 tranny will be much more expensive than a 5 speed Subaru tranny. I’m going to start saving my pennys. I know this won’t be as powerful as a SC 911 car but it will still have Porsche power. And with no radiator in the front I will have a useful frunk. And it will be a Conv D with role up windows and removable hard top. Now all I have to do is wait.
I'll let you drive mine if you let me drive yours.
@Lane Anderson posted:I'll let you drive mine if you let me drive yours.
You’ve got a deal.
So it has begun. Pat Downs will be building me a 2.65 L Type 4. Completion time for the engine is almost a year. Sounds like his business is taking off very fast. It’s crazy how much I’m paying for this engine but the power train will be full Porsche. Plan on using a 901 or 915 tranny. I actually liked the 901 in my 914 so I might do that. It won’t be the 911 car but it will be pretty close and I get my convertible with hard top. I think I’ll deliver my Dells personally to Pat so I can meet the legend.