Type 4 engine

There are several out there for sure - Jack C has one built by Jake that he has many miles on it. Cory D's Hoopty engine a T4.  Rich D (Now PepeSpeed aka Tom L) has a 2 plug per cylinder Raby T4.  Jim A in IL has one in his Inca Gold Speedster. Mango Smoothie too. Lenny C's Spyder too. 

What gets costly is going to upright cooling ($1k) - but the OEM flat will work fine and you still have heating and thermostats.  You can follow Joe Cali upright conversion manual which uses a mix of T4 and T1 cooling shroud parts too. Rich D did that on an earlier engine. The other is exhaust - like Tangerine Racing but you can use 412/Bus heat exchangers modified (914 appear too long).  

I've got a 1.8L and 2.0L sitting waiting for me to work on them.  The crank offset is different between the two as are the heads and P&C size.  But it is easy to use a 2L 71mm crank in the 1.7/1.8 case and go to larger P&C.

Another cooling option is to find some stuff for a Porsche 912, which would be the same engine with the "upright" cooling shroud as on the original 356 cars.

Just as a point of interest, with the Type 4 Porsche had perfected the flat-four engine and cooling apparatus way beyond what the 356 or VW engines had in their day, and the type 4 engine has all that.  The pancake cooling system on those engines really worked well - much better than the upright cooling system prior to that -  so if you go that route I would be really tempted to leave the original type 4 cooling in place.  I've seen a New England speedster with the T-4 and original cooling package and it doesn't look all that bad, just different.  In fact, it looks a lot like having a Subaru engine in there.

You've still got four more days to bid on this little puppy:

WOW - that's a monster! Great deal.

Wolfgang check out the DTM (Down The Middle) Type IV cooling shroud. Go to type4store.com  and enter DTM in the search box. 

I do love the Raby Type IV in my Vintage Speedster --it has 45,000 miles on it and is stronger than new today.  A round trip to the West Coast (3,800 miles) and 10 Carlisle events in a row (2,400 miles each round trip) without a hiccup. 75-80 all day on interstates, 27-32 mpg and oil temps never over 185 with a dry garage floor.

Suby's are nice (Raby is remanufacturing these), but if you want  air cooled power,  a Type IV is pretty sweet.

Personally I like the look of the 911 style fan. I have seen these things rebuilt (non -Jake's - too costly for me) with the 911 fan in the $6k - 7k range.

My question is more along the lines of performance. What does a stock type 4 give you in the way of torque, hp, feel,  etc... ?

(Thanks for the Joe Cali lead Wolfie. I'll see if I can find it.)

Thanks Jack. I missed your response. That is great.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 You've still got four more days to bid on this little puppy:

I’m going to need a moment to collect myself.

Thank you very little, Mitch, for planning seeds of discontentment in this holiday season. This is quite nearly the perfect engine.

I’ve had a 200 hp Type-1, and it was stressed to the moon. This one is running 8.5:1 CR, and makes 196 horsepower @ 5,500 rpm and 228 lb-ft of torque @ 4,000 rpm. It’s making over 200 lb-ft @ 3000 rpm. Numbers like that are not really possible in an aircooled flat-4 without at least 2.5+L displacement or a turbo, which brings its own compromises. Low RPM torque figures come from sky-high compression ratios, or displacement. I’m living with the high CR in a streetcar environment.

I’d love to go down the big displacement road. 

Mazzive engine and looks great but lit with a 009 and Pertronix? I don't think that would work at all in Stanistan. 

Stan, I knew that cheery, red shroud would brighten your holidays.

edsnova posted:

Mazzive engine and looks great but lit with a 009 and Pertronix? I don't think that would work at all in Stanistan. 

Oh, it would only be a starting point, for sure. 

Just to really make no sense: The right upright shroud for this, imho, would have to be a Furhman-style knock-off like Arjani has. Upgrade the intake to a FI with ITBs and hide the fuel rail and injectors under a bolt-on oval cover that says "Porsche." 

Dry-sump that sumbitch. 

THEN dual-plug it. 

At that point it would take a marque expert several minutes at least to determine what you were presenting. You could bolt it in an Aztek or a sandrail and people would still think it was a 547 engine.

And with that kind of torque . . . .

Nobody—but nobody!—could stare ya down.

You guys are way over my head with this thing. I am learning a lot.

Here is another one. Never heard of Richie, but he has quite a few engines for sale on Samba.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2235178

@MotoCarlo-

 I know nothing about Wright Gearbox engines, Carlos, but my friend Bruce recently took apart a rebuilt trans I think was 1 of his rebuilds and the r&p settings were way wrong.

Thanks Al.

I've had the type Iv with the  911 style fan in two Speedster projects, the torque is great but that unique 911 fan noise is the bomb !

I love mine!

Finished up mine last summer. Went the Cali route and made my own tin. Got it installed about July and only got to drive it a few weeks before I put it up for winter.

My Son-in-law used to work at the local airport and he called me one day saying he was cleaning out a hanger that a guy vacated and he found a VW engine in pieces and wanted to know if I wanted it. I of course said yes. He brought me a block and 5, 5 gallon buckets full of parts. It ended up being a 2 ltr out of 914  so I was more than happy to get it for free. After checking the block out and having the heads rebuilt I started assembly.  I bought another type 4 for parts for 100 bucks that was locked up, Here is a few Pics and Video of the build. This was installed in my 88 CMC widebody I ended up having to clearance the deck lid to get it to close. I have had a lot of people ask me about the oil cooler, which I left in the stock location. I have an oil temp sensor installed along with a CHT sensor and while I dont have a lot of miles on it, it seems to be keeping everthing cool for city driving. I will continue to keep an eye on things but if it ends up giving me trouble I may go with a doghouse or external cooler.

I also have a short video of the build here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Za9ziZR0g

Ha, took me a bit to figure out the valve cover over the stock oil cooler!

Thanks for posting that Dana. Looks like you did a great job. Pretty engine and sounds great.

WOLFGANG posted:

Ha, took me a bit to figure out the valve cover over the stock oil cooler!

Yes, Its an old VW valve cover I cut down and added a skirt. Inside I took the original bracket/seal that came from the type 4 tin and welded it into the cover to provide a seal so that all the air from the duct goes through the cooler and not around it.

MotoCarlo posted:

Thanks for posting that Dana. Looks like you did a great job. Pretty engine and sounds great.

Thanks. I just installed a new red leather interior, (Dash, seats and door panels) to my speedster and painted the engine red to match the interior.

Looks (and sounds) very good, Dana! I'm sure it moves your Speedster along in fine fashion. Everyone that I've read about that's done the Joe Cali conversion all say they run nice and cool (sometimes a little too cool!). Did you keep it a 2 liter or did you go a little bigger? Stock cam or? Any porting work to the heads when you had them rebuilt? I take it the Kadrons are a good match for the engine? How high does it rev with power? Any pics of the rest of the car?

I see these are your first posts- Welcome To The Madness! Al 

ALB posted:

Looks (and sounds) very good, Dana! I'm sure it moves your Speedster along in fine fashion. Everyone that I've read about that's done the Joe Cali conversion all say they run nice and cool (sometimes a little too cool!). Did you keep it a 2 liter or did you go a little bigger? Stock cam or? Any porting work to the heads when you had them rebuilt? I take it the Kadrons are a good match for the engine? How high does it rev with power? Any pics of the rest of the car?

I see these are your first posts- Welcome To The Madness! Al 

I really havent checked the rev limit but it really is a huge improvement in torque and speed. Lots more power on tap than the stock 1600 I originally had in the car. I was trying to build this one on a budget so I kept everthing stock. 71mm stroke and 94mm pistons. The heads got new valves, guides and seats and was cc'd, no porting or polishing. Im guessing it may be 100hp max but that is more than double what I had. I had to do a lot of work on the carbs. I called the guys at Kaddie Shack in regards to the Kadrons and they suggested bigger jets and venturis went from 28mm venturis to 32 mm. Took me a while to get them dialed in. Acc pump adj was critical.  I have a Vac distributor that I want to replace the 009 with but will have to send off one of the Kadrons to get a vacuum port installed. I live in WV and we have a lot of hills around here. With the type 4's new torque I find I can use higher gears on some of them and its a lot more fun driving on some of our curvy, hilly roads around here. 

Actually I have been a member here for a while but have just been out of the Speedster thing for a while. I bought the car about 15 years ago and have been slowly making improvements to it over the years. Last year was the interior and this year was the new engine. I really enjoy driving the car and also enjoy working on VWs in general. 

Geeesh  me,  Tom B. and now a third West Virginia speedster neighbor ( well around here ( Elkins) 150 miles up and down a few mountains isn't all that far :~)  Btw  you have a hell of a good VW guy near you in Dunbar,   WV . 

Alan Merklin posted:

Geeesh  me,  Tom B. and now a third West Virginia speedster neighbor ( well around here ( Elkins) 150 miles up and down a few mountains isn't all that far :~)  Btw  you have a hell of a good VW guy near you in Dunbar,   WV . 

Hi Alan, Lots of guys around here into VWs, Not that many close by in to 356s though. I used to be a member of the Almost Heaven VW club out of Charleston and there was a bunch of guys in the Parkersburg area that had Speedsters. Ive also been to Keiths in Clendenin. WV. I live near Huntington and we have a few guys in Southern, OH and around Ashland , KY also. The guy that worked on my heads is from OH. I know there is another Keiths Auto in Dunbar and been there a couple times. 

While I like the look of the 911 inspired upright cooling systems - they end up adding $1k to cost.  The flat pancake T4 engine can fit in the Speedster as is so the $1k can be used on a performance exhaust instead.  Plus the engine is easier to work on in flat format.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 You've still got four more days to bid on this little puppy:

It closed at $18,000. Holy. Freaking. Cow.

Pretty much what it would have sold for new. Yikes.

It seems that the auction style brings a frenzy and a lot of people buy stuff at what I would consider a ridiculous price.  I mean if you want to buy a new one go get one.  Gee I wish Craiglist and Kijiji, brought that kind of return on used stuff.  

MotoCarlo posted:

Pretty much what it would have sold for new. Yikes.

$18,000 is actually over the total of the FAT Performance invoice. I was ready to bid on this when it was $6000. Looking at the comments until then, I was pretty confident that $7500- $8000 was going to do it.

I was very, very wrong.

10 years ago, I contacted FAT about building a 3L, dry-sump, twin plug engine. At the time, all I wanted was a longblock-- and the price was about $11,000. This engine is nowhere near as exotic as that one would have been. It was dressed nicely and all, but still-- $18,000?

Building 2.5L+ Type 4s would be a very nice little retirement job.

How much demand would there be for big fat T4's?

Bill Prout posted:

How much demand would there be for big fat T4's?

Certainly enough for a retirement job.

I agree with Stan, I thought $8k tops.
I want to upgrade the power plant in my IM Roadster. 
A T4 is at the top of my list ($6k), next would be a Pat Downs engine ($9k), and last revisit the subie ($12k). - of course with me doing the install etc....

But honestly I am also considering selling my IM Roadster where it sits (which is pretty dang nice right now) and simply taking on a different car altogether. I already have way tooooo much time and money in the IM, and the thought of spending another $10k on it and months of work....

A 912E (with the T4) in decent shape can still be had in the sub $20k range. Or score a used Beck and make it happen with new engine etc... 

Fun to consider the options.

I looked for a 912E after Carl got his orange one - back then nice ones were $16-18k.  Now a ragged one needing total restore is $20k. With only 2092 built they are becoming rare.  None listed on SAMBA and one cobble 6 cyl one on ebay.

f:0&vxp=mtr" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-...k:1f:0&vxp=mtr

There is one on Bring a Trailer for $15k now - ends in 2 hrs and close by in Washington state! Ouch, 266k miles on it!

@MotoCarlo

https://bringatrailer.com/list...976-porsche-912e-15/

I saw that one too. But not ready to buy yet. I agree Wolfie, 266k = nope! I am Just watching for fun now. I have seen them off the beaten path still in the $20k range ( of course I have not actually "seen" any of them - and as we all know , that makes all the difference.).  

The good side of the stock market taking a tumble, we can watch some of the cars come down in price. Seems the 356 coupe was once nearing $80k and now looks closer to $60k. Same with the older 911s.

And even the overpriced Alfa GTV seems to be softening - aside from the blue one that just got a crazy price on BAT... ($60k +)

This is a fun part of being a car nut - watching and hunting for the cool deal.