Will the type 4 engine from a 76 bus fit in a framed cmc speedster with stock type 4 cooling setup, or will I have to do an upright conversion?
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Will the type 4 engine from a 76 bus fit in a framed cmc speedster with stock type 4 cooling setup, or will I have to do an upright conversion?
You will need to do an upright conversion. Type 4s in speedster are very nice. Any questions contact Jake Raby...he's the T4 man.
Ron (the older one)
Ron (the older one)
By the way, Jake has just come out with a new fan shroud for a T4 conversion to a beetle/speedster et al.
Check his web site out at; www.aircooledtechnology.com/
Ron (the much older one)
Check his web site out at; www.aircooledtechnology.com/
Ron (the much older one)
Yes, IF A TI ENGINE WILL FIT A TIV ENGINE WILL FIT, no matter what vehicle, 2 of ther TIV dimensions are SMALLER than a TI..The engine will need to be converted correctly, though.....thats not a problem at all.
My fanshroud is not really "new" as it was originally sold in the early 90s.....All I have done is made the shroud accessible again and redid a few aspects of it.
A TIV in a speedster is UNREAL!
(Message Edited 8/3/2003 10:47:11 AM)
My fanshroud is not really "new" as it was originally sold in the early 90s.....All I have done is made the shroud accessible again and redid a few aspects of it.
A TIV in a speedster is UNREAL!
(Message Edited 8/3/2003 10:47:11 AM)
Thanks for the info Ron and Jake!! Neil 58cmc
JPS has put lot's of type 4s into Speedsters, including mine. Many were uprights, but not all. See his Website under Manufacturers. Makes a great combination for easy driving. Loads of torque ...the American way !
Jake "Raby Aircooled" is very accurate on saying a Raby T-IV in a Speedster is unreal ...what a ride , reliable and runs cool!
Alan M
Alan M
On the options list from JPS the TIV has HD transmission listed.... anyone know what this means.... and I'm curious as to what size and setup you people are running on your TIV engines. And who built your engine would be great info
(Message Edited 8/7/2003 11:06:49 PM)
(Message Edited 8/7/2003 11:06:49 PM)
I'm still using the IRS transmission that came with my VS Speedster with Jake's T4. I don't speed shift or abuse the trans.. My next project will be putting in a beefed up trans. Been running this configuration for over a year now with no problems.
Steven, why don't you ask JPS about the transaxle?
(Message Edited 8/8/2003 10:25:35 AM)
(Message Edited 8/8/2003 10:25:35 AM)
I did send an e-mail asking about this, but never received an answer....they did answer other questions that I had, but I will try again.
Ensure that the trans is set up with the thought of a TIV powerplant... There are many changes that I like to do to the gearbox to make the conversion simpler...That includes the year of the case it is built on...tire sizes.....and the engines powerband. It is always better to buy a known combination of engine and trans that have already been optimized for your application, or to buy the engine already dynoed and build the gearbox around its performance...
I like peak torque to be at the users desired RPM for cruise speeds for the best fuel economy and coolest running temps.
IT DOES MAKE THE DIFFERENCE!
(Message Edited 8/9/2003 5:41:26 PM)
I like peak torque to be at the users desired RPM for cruise speeds for the best fuel economy and coolest running temps.
IT DOES MAKE THE DIFFERENCE!
(Message Edited 8/9/2003 5:41:26 PM)
"Peak torque at users desired RPM for highway cruising" may give peak fuel economy, but just coincidently it also gives he maximum high gear acceleration when you want to spank someone. That principle has been around for 50 years, and it holds just as true for a big block Chevy as it does for a Fiat 500. C'mon Jake, tell us the rest of the story.
David, at highway speeds if you want to "spank someone" a downshift to 4th (or 3rd, depending on your speed) in a 901 5-speed coupled to a healthy 2,110cc type 1 engine will do it even better.
Hey George and Jake,
Seeing as how King George will soon have the ultimate Speedster, how about if your two paths cross, and there is a Vw drag event at a swap meet, we see a mano-y-mano last bragging rights face off, T1 vs T4. Or you two guys come up with a mutually agreed upon face to face test.
Seeing as how King George will soon have the ultimate Speedster, how about if your two paths cross, and there is a Vw drag event at a swap meet, we see a mano-y-mano last bragging rights face off, T1 vs T4. Or you two guys come up with a mutually agreed upon face to face test.
Erik, once my car is broken in I'll do some "test and tune" runs at the local 1/4 mile strip and get some time slips. I have no idea what my new car will do for 1/4 mile times but I would imagine low 13s or high 12s which isn't bad for a "daily driver" performance engine.
Roger that George, its just that your comment re the 901 and "healthy 2110" will do it even better" sounded a bit like a challenge to me.
George,
Some of us are just torque junkies (a hold-over I suspect from an early indocrination to 427 Corvettes), hence my choice of a type 4 engine. Also, local "cruzin" conditions in Southern Cal are usually 75 to 85 MPH. Anything less and grandma in a grey Hyndai will pass you. SUVs and Beemers are mostly doin 90 in the left lane. Got nothing against RPM or type one power, it's just a different approach.
I commute to work every day on a motorcycle and 8000 RPM freeway spurts are nothing unusual. But most of the time, I just twist the wrist in the gear I'm in, and bang, traffic is behind me. Same with a type four, just push on the pedal and you're gone. Maybe at 61 years, I'm just gettin old?
Some of us are just torque junkies (a hold-over I suspect from an early indocrination to 427 Corvettes), hence my choice of a type 4 engine. Also, local "cruzin" conditions in Southern Cal are usually 75 to 85 MPH. Anything less and grandma in a grey Hyndai will pass you. SUVs and Beemers are mostly doin 90 in the left lane. Got nothing against RPM or type one power, it's just a different approach.
I commute to work every day on a motorcycle and 8000 RPM freeway spurts are nothing unusual. But most of the time, I just twist the wrist in the gear I'm in, and bang, traffic is behind me. Same with a type four, just push on the pedal and you're gone. Maybe at 61 years, I'm just gettin old?
David, you sound like you're doing fine!
Ron
Ron
David, it never ceases to amaze me that people keep thinking a type 4 engine just inherently has more torque than a type 1. It's true of STOCK type 4's and type 1's since the stock type 4's had more displacement.
Torque is the ability to do work and depends on engine displacement, crankshaft stroke, and engine efficiency which all translates into BMEP (brake mean effective pressure), torque, and BHP. Horsepower is simply work done in a specific amount of time.
So what you get for torque and BHP depends on the engine specs you build with, not which engine you start with.
The only real advantage to a type 4 engine other than increased stock displacement is that it has a stronger engine case, but it also has a rather poor cylinder head design. Going beyond stock items, there are now stronger aluminum type 1 cases available and many choices for type 1 performance cylinder heads, crankshafts, connecting rods, etc.
Torque is the ability to do work and depends on engine displacement, crankshaft stroke, and engine efficiency which all translates into BMEP (brake mean effective pressure), torque, and BHP. Horsepower is simply work done in a specific amount of time.
So what you get for torque and BHP depends on the engine specs you build with, not which engine you start with.
The only real advantage to a type 4 engine other than increased stock displacement is that it has a stronger engine case, but it also has a rather poor cylinder head design. Going beyond stock items, there are now stronger aluminum type 1 cases available and many choices for type 1 performance cylinder heads, crankshafts, connecting rods, etc.
George,
The TIV does have more torque than a TI, and at a lower RPM also.It never ceases to amaze me that you post opinions, from hearsay- wheres YOU'RE PROOF? (and don't be giving me some BS story from some clown on the CLF thats just as closed minded as yourself!)
I have 225+ dyno plots to prove it, thats from TI and TIV engines.The TIV does and WILL make more torque. Thats not hearsay, thats a fact. It's people like you that have kept the TIV from spreading its wings and doing what it's is capable of for thousands of powerful daily drivers- No tool box needed.
Show me a TI of less than 2316cc that will make 152 lb/ft of torque at 2500RPM....Rev to 7,500 and make HP to 7K.
That engine in my 914 will run 110MPH in 3rd gear, idles like its stock and runs head temps of 325 degrees with a stock cooling system...thats a 10:1 static CR engine.It gets 28 MPG.
Like I have said for the last 2+ years George....Till you drive one in a converted state, done right and made for the application, you cannot even give a comparison.....reading books, stories and posts just don't cut it.
I have driven them, and know literally thousands of others that have also. Of those people I cannot think of a SINGLE one that has went back to TI power after feeling what a conversion is capable of.
I speak and base my experiences on what I have derived from trial and error and doing things with MY OWN 2 hands, not reading things with my 2 eyes and making my own interpretations of them, to satisfy my self....then telling those feelings to others.
I may not know it all, and never want to....
The best way to know you found a liar in the VW world, is when you find a VW "expert"!
The TIV does have more torque than a TI, and at a lower RPM also.It never ceases to amaze me that you post opinions, from hearsay- wheres YOU'RE PROOF? (and don't be giving me some BS story from some clown on the CLF thats just as closed minded as yourself!)
I have 225+ dyno plots to prove it, thats from TI and TIV engines.The TIV does and WILL make more torque. Thats not hearsay, thats a fact. It's people like you that have kept the TIV from spreading its wings and doing what it's is capable of for thousands of powerful daily drivers- No tool box needed.
Show me a TI of less than 2316cc that will make 152 lb/ft of torque at 2500RPM....Rev to 7,500 and make HP to 7K.
That engine in my 914 will run 110MPH in 3rd gear, idles like its stock and runs head temps of 325 degrees with a stock cooling system...thats a 10:1 static CR engine.It gets 28 MPG.
Like I have said for the last 2+ years George....Till you drive one in a converted state, done right and made for the application, you cannot even give a comparison.....reading books, stories and posts just don't cut it.
I have driven them, and know literally thousands of others that have also. Of those people I cannot think of a SINGLE one that has went back to TI power after feeling what a conversion is capable of.
I speak and base my experiences on what I have derived from trial and error and doing things with MY OWN 2 hands, not reading things with my 2 eyes and making my own interpretations of them, to satisfy my self....then telling those feelings to others.
I may not know it all, and never want to....
The best way to know you found a liar in the VW world, is when you find a VW "expert"!
I think both of you are misguided. They way to go is to convert a Chevy Vega motor to air cooled. After all, they had an aluminum block (didn't they?) and we know how dependable they were. And then, instead of putting Porsche script on the back, you could put something like 'Viva Las Vega' I could work!
As my good friend, Rodney King, always says, "can't we all get along?".
Ron
(Ron's motor has left the building)
As my good friend, Rodney King, always says, "can't we all get along?".
Ron
(Ron's motor has left the building)
"Show me a TI of less than 2316cc that will make 152 lb/ft of torque at 2500RPM....Rev to 7,500 and make HP to 7K. That engine in my 914 will run 110MPH in 3rd gear, idles like its stock and runs head temps of 325 degrees with a stock cooling system...thats a 10:1 static CR engine.It gets 28 MPG."
OK, I want one of those... how much and where do I send the check...
(Message Edited 8/16/2003 10:42:15 PM)
OK, I want one of those... how much and where do I send the check...
(Message Edited 8/16/2003 10:42:15 PM)
Ron, what is your problem...you've got a 2110...what more do you want...maybe someone to show you how to drive it?????
The other Ron
(going to the Bug Show?)
The other Ron
(going to the Bug Show?)
Ron,
That engine is a 914 spec engine that I offer, see it on my webpage under 914 engines. Its the 2316 annihilator.
To run 110 in 3rd, you'll need the 901 gearbox and have the guts to watch the tach climb to 7500RPM before shifting- no sweat.
That engine is in my personal car, just drove it this morning....if you were closer I'd take you for a drive!
I have an upright conversion stage of tune for this engine, that makes even more power. Send me an email to info@aircooledtechnology, and Kathy will shoot you some dyno graphs from recent engines-my site needs updating.
(Message Edited 8/17/2003 2:51:54 PM)
That engine is a 914 spec engine that I offer, see it on my webpage under 914 engines. Its the 2316 annihilator.
To run 110 in 3rd, you'll need the 901 gearbox and have the guts to watch the tach climb to 7500RPM before shifting- no sweat.
That engine is in my personal car, just drove it this morning....if you were closer I'd take you for a drive!
I have an upright conversion stage of tune for this engine, that makes even more power. Send me an email to info@aircooledtechnology, and Kathy will shoot you some dyno graphs from recent engines-my site needs updating.
(Message Edited 8/17/2003 2:51:54 PM)
Well Jake, if you've managed to circumvent the laws of physics then more power to you - you must have one of those pointy wizard hats and a magic wand. Oh, by the way, I'm gonna be getting my hands dirty building and installing a SOHC 911-4.
Jake, show him the scar on your forehead.
Ron
(change the 'j' to an 'h', change the 'k' into 2 'r's and change the 'e' to a 'y'. A coincidence...I think not.)
Ron
(change the 'j' to an 'h', change the 'k' into 2 'r's and change the 'e' to a 'y'. A coincidence...I think not.)
Ron, I don't know what's in the water in your parts, but bottle some up and send it to me! That "Jake" scrabble was another good 'un!
LOL
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MM
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MM
So for the non Knowing folk...myself...what makes a type four stronger in torque? What is it about this motor that gives more grunt vs the same size type one? I do beleive the rumors about the type fours being pretty stout but I'd like to know why?
As for the argument for the type four (for me) it easy to see that if a 2.1 liter type one engine isn't punchy enough then it's time to go to a type four. From what I've read and whom I've talked to it seems like a 2110 type one is about the biggest you can go before you get into reliablity/longevity issues. And really, the mag case isn't meant for big displacements.
I ask to George why not go Type four? Seams like you want a fast reliable car. A type four can give you big displacement without all the headache of going totally custom. I just don't see how an all custom engine will be that reliable. All out type one aftermarket blocks are for the drag races not cruising around. George, I'm sure your car will haul (&*^ however I wouldn't take a long trip in your ride without a great towing plan from AAA.
The other side of the coin that I can see when the type one does wear out there is something to play with. I mean that it can be fun to play with engines especially type ones as there's so much out there. We all like to fiddle at least a little bit.
J-P
As for the argument for the type four (for me) it easy to see that if a 2.1 liter type one engine isn't punchy enough then it's time to go to a type four. From what I've read and whom I've talked to it seems like a 2110 type one is about the biggest you can go before you get into reliablity/longevity issues. And really, the mag case isn't meant for big displacements.
I ask to George why not go Type four? Seams like you want a fast reliable car. A type four can give you big displacement without all the headache of going totally custom. I just don't see how an all custom engine will be that reliable. All out type one aftermarket blocks are for the drag races not cruising around. George, I'm sure your car will haul (&*^ however I wouldn't take a long trip in your ride without a great towing plan from AAA.
The other side of the coin that I can see when the type one does wear out there is something to play with. I mean that it can be fun to play with engines especially type ones as there's so much out there. We all like to fiddle at least a little bit.
J-P
The main reason why George could'nt go TIV is because he'd never be able to bitch at me again...
He took a ride once ago in a 411/412 that his girlfriend had, and he didn'tlike it....so between that ride in a heavy stock car, and his reading of BS on the net he has created his own assumption. Thats what he is best at.
Now he has already admitted that there are many more ways to go than TI power, with his choice of using a 911/4 for his new car. He tried to build the ultimate TI engine, and it was less than favorable in the outcome---listen to his actions, and not his words.
He took a ride once ago in a 411/412 that his girlfriend had, and he didn'tlike it....so between that ride in a heavy stock car, and his reading of BS on the net he has created his own assumption. Thats what he is best at.
Now he has already admitted that there are many more ways to go than TI power, with his choice of using a 911/4 for his new car. He tried to build the ultimate TI engine, and it was less than favorable in the outcome---listen to his actions, and not his words.
Jean-Paul, the type 4 case is a stronger aluminum alloy with through-bolts for the main case that go through large crankshaft case main webs, and it can take a bit larger bore cylinders. The crankshaft main journals are also larger. The cooling setup is a bit weird with the fan mounted on the rear end of the crankshaft, the engine has a larger oil cooler, and it also incorporates a spin-on oil filter.
A modern "built" type 1 may use a stronger aluminum case, a stronger than stock counterweighted crankshaft (with larger type 4 main bearing journals if desired), type 4 and/or auxilliary oil cooler, full-flow oil filter, and displace up to 2,387cc without too much hassle. Bore and stroke, rod length, camshaft, induction system, exhaust system, ports, ignition curve, and valve size will determine the RPM and amount of maximum torque available.
I'm currently getting together the parts for my next engine - a 2,500cc single overhead camshaft four cylinder 911 Porsche engine with dual ignition and dual Weber 48 IDA's. Time to rock and roll...
(Message Edited 8/19/2003 11:18:12 AM)
A modern "built" type 1 may use a stronger aluminum case, a stronger than stock counterweighted crankshaft (with larger type 4 main bearing journals if desired), type 4 and/or auxilliary oil cooler, full-flow oil filter, and displace up to 2,387cc without too much hassle. Bore and stroke, rod length, camshaft, induction system, exhaust system, ports, ignition curve, and valve size will determine the RPM and amount of maximum torque available.
I'm currently getting together the parts for my next engine - a 2,500cc single overhead camshaft four cylinder 911 Porsche engine with dual ignition and dual Weber 48 IDA's. Time to rock and roll...
(Message Edited 8/19/2003 11:18:12 AM)
I had to postpone my T4 project. I am doing a budget T1 1915 as a stop gap. At least in my mind the T4 suits my needs & expectations bettter. The Europeans figured it out a good while ago.
People go golfing with more than one club in the bag; re Vw, different engines serve differ purposes, it depends on what you want. Jake has a race beetle with a T1 in it.
I suspect it is fair to say there are fewer expert T4 engine builders compared to T1.
People on the cutting edge have always been second guessed, i.e., the earth is not flat, germs cause illness and here we are debating the taste better/less filing T1 vs T4 argument. I would be proud to have a Rabized T4 by Jacob.
People go golfing with more than one club in the bag; re Vw, different engines serve differ purposes, it depends on what you want. Jake has a race beetle with a T1 in it.
I suspect it is fair to say there are fewer expert T4 engine builders compared to T1.
People on the cutting edge have always been second guessed, i.e., the earth is not flat, germs cause illness and here we are debating the taste better/less filing T1 vs T4 argument. I would be proud to have a Rabized T4 by Jacob.
Jake, we drove her 412 many miles over several years; I was never impressed with its performance. I rebuilt it for her at about 100,000 and replaced that awful VW electronic injection with dual Webers and that was an improvement.
She traded it in on a manual trans Honda Accord coupe; she loved the Honda compared to the 412 and found it to be far superior for her needs. The Honda was quicker, quieter, more comfortable, had better brakes, and got better gas mileage.
The 2,387 will be in my new car until I finish the 911-4, and i'm sure that at 215 BHP it will be more than adequate.
The 911-4 will have slightly more power and torque but will also rev much higher than a type 1 or type 4 with no problems; 7,500 RPM for a properly prepared SOHC 911 on a regular basis is no big deal. And, it will be NEAT AS HELL.
Then the 2,387 becomes a spare engine. The 2,387 has a full-flow through-bolted aftermarket TF-1 aluminum case, Scat ultra-light 86mm crankshaft with type 4 center main, Crower titanium rods, 10.4 lb. flywheel, 30mm Berg Schadek pump, 3 1/2 quart Berg sump, Manley S/S valves, cryo'd valve springs, titanium valve spring retainers, chrome-moly pushrods, 58 gram composite lifters (silicon-bronze lifter bore sleeves), etc., so I'm sure it will live quite a few miles at any reasonable RPM before it needs anything major.
Don't worry Jake, you've made the point MANY times that if an engine isn't built by Jake Raby it has to be sub-standard. Of course all the guys winning races on the west coast are ignorant of that fact.
(Message Edited 8/19/2003 1:20:42 PM)
She traded it in on a manual trans Honda Accord coupe; she loved the Honda compared to the 412 and found it to be far superior for her needs. The Honda was quicker, quieter, more comfortable, had better brakes, and got better gas mileage.
The 2,387 will be in my new car until I finish the 911-4, and i'm sure that at 215 BHP it will be more than adequate.
The 911-4 will have slightly more power and torque but will also rev much higher than a type 1 or type 4 with no problems; 7,500 RPM for a properly prepared SOHC 911 on a regular basis is no big deal. And, it will be NEAT AS HELL.
Then the 2,387 becomes a spare engine. The 2,387 has a full-flow through-bolted aftermarket TF-1 aluminum case, Scat ultra-light 86mm crankshaft with type 4 center main, Crower titanium rods, 10.4 lb. flywheel, 30mm Berg Schadek pump, 3 1/2 quart Berg sump, Manley S/S valves, cryo'd valve springs, titanium valve spring retainers, chrome-moly pushrods, 58 gram composite lifters (silicon-bronze lifter bore sleeves), etc., so I'm sure it will live quite a few miles at any reasonable RPM before it needs anything major.
Don't worry Jake, you've made the point MANY times that if an engine isn't built by Jake Raby it has to be sub-standard. Of course all the guys winning races on the west coast are ignorant of that fact.
(Message Edited 8/19/2003 1:20:42 PM)
I had both a bug and a 1.8 liter 914. I did really like the 914 with the exception of the stinkin' fuel injection and it was difficult to work on.
When running properly it ran really smoothly and had adequate power for
me. I can only imagine what a 2316 anihilator would do in my speedster.
Of course maybe George will change his mind about that "spare engine"
down the road.(HEHE)
BD
(Message Edited 8/19/2003 5:21:57 PM)
When running properly it ran really smoothly and had adequate power for
me. I can only imagine what a 2316 anihilator would do in my speedster.
Of course maybe George will change his mind about that "spare engine"
down the road.(HEHE)
BD
(Message Edited 8/19/2003 5:21:57 PM)
George, you must be the fiddle king. If I were you I'd buy a 911 or a Demotoso. It seems like your not satisfied with a nice, quick little Speedster.
J-P
J-P
how about a little backgroung information on this 911-4 that george is building....history of the engine style conversions to be done etc.
Steven, buy a copy of the August 2003 issue of "Excellence" magazine; it has quite a write up on the engines and shows John Collins's 356 outlaw coupe with one of them. Dean Polopolus has done the engineering and development starting with an engine that used cut/rewelded engine cases and crankshaft (it had an odd firing sequence) and ending with the current new cases, crankshafts, and cams. I think Chuck Beck (of Beck Spyders and Speedsters) also built an experimental cut/welded 911-4 engine years ago. Anyway, the article covers history and development.
There was an outlaw 356 roadracing coupe with Dean's first 911-4 called "Desperado" that used to give Mustangs and Corvettes fits during SCCA roadraces.
(Message Edited 8/21/2003 1:08:56 PM)
There was an outlaw 356 roadracing coupe with Dean's first 911-4 called "Desperado" that used to give Mustangs and Corvettes fits during SCCA roadraces.
(Message Edited 8/21/2003 1:08:56 PM)
thanks for the info I will get the article
Hell, give it two more weeks and George will be the guys historian on the 911/4...Who needs a book, we have Mr. Webster among us!