Type 4 or Type 1 your thoughts

Just checking to see if anyone can post a little feedback on current experience on type 4 versus type 1 experience. I am getting ready to start another project and the motor planning is in full swing.

If you have any recomendations on setup or parts or builders, let me know. I need to get this started right now so I can have the car ready for next May.

I am sure that this has come up before, but my back button is not working on my browser.

P-

This has been discussed a lot on this forum. I've had my Raby T4 in my Speedster for a couple years now and it's been trouble free. If a T4 is the way you go, I would talk with Jake Raby. Great engine and customer service.

I am getting some very mixed reviews on the Type 4 power plant. I need some more personal experience.

Patrick,
Check my post on Jake Raby's web site re: the two type 4's that I have installed in speedsters.
The workmanship, quality and reliability is well worth the initial investment. Drop a Raby type IV into a speedster and you develop what I would call " Perm-a-grin " .

Paul had his car at the Northern California Kit Car Club show in San Leandro today. We talked and laughed alot but I forgot to ask about his engine. His car was a standout however. We took I-80 home together and he did pass me and a beautiful wine colored 993 at a pretty high rate of speed. It was good to see Paul again, it has been awhile!

Hey Patrick,
I think Barker got the right combination of useable power,enjoyable torque and reliability in his 2260(?) type4. I think John Leader's type4 is of the same displacement, maybe out of a 914?...

He'll be checking in once he gets out from behind the wheel...I understand he even drove it in the rain last week. Who said it never rains in California?

My speedster has been out of commission since the Knotts Show getting the 48IDA's rebuilt, replacing the crossbar linkage and getting the heads repaired.

The heads got ported too thin and cracked. When they went back for repairs one got fixed and one got overlooked, requiring the engine to be torn down a second time. The remaining head (well-traveled but not yet broke in) went back for its repairs.

Unfortuneately for me, Jake's head dude had a bunch of race cars to attend to first and my second head's repair was delayed a couple months.

I'm now dealing with an intermittent loss of oil pressure, but I'm sure that we can figure this one out ourselves. I think while it is in for that work we'll replace the Taiwan pulley with one that isn't as chrome or slippery.

The solid mounting we adapted after Knotts seems to be keeping the driveline in one piece, although if you want a smooth ride and want to forego tranny support, be cautious how much engine you decide on, these type4s are torquey!

Running oil temps are just about the same as my type1 and the auxillary oil cooler has yet to kick on thermostatically, but I turn it on from the dash just because I can. Head temps to and from the San Leandro show were about 325+ ...the gauge is a little out of my field of vision, but 350 is straight up and down, and I can see the needle is a ways off to the left (low side) So I think that is fine.

Most of us at the show this afternoon watched and listened in awe as the dude with the Intermeccanica fitted with a 3.0 911 engine pulled out... I think I could take him, but there's a value in the sound of a 911 that you just can't put a price on.
Hmmmmmmmm?

Paul,

Thanks for the info. I wish I had time to talk to you and check out the car. A buddy of mine did check out your car and was stoked to see the type 4 motor in a VS. He was curious as to some of the components, but thought it looked cool for the most part.

Your experience is exactly what I am worried about. Should I build a monster type 1 or a mild type 4. It sounds like you have a monster type 4 if you are in fact running the Webber 48Ida carbs. I hear that those are great on the strip but may be trouble on the street if not jetted correctly.

There was an IM 911 powered car at the show today! Damn it! I knew the community service would get in the way sooner or later.

Originally, I was going to put a 914 Type IV in my new Speedster build, but John Steele was very excited about a large Type I his engine guru had come up with (a 2332cc) and wanted to try it in my car. I said, "OK," and in it went.
It's fast, smooth, torque to spare, but it's been blowing oil out the bottom since Day One even with a breather kit installed.
I brought it back into JPS last Thursday morning in a rainstorm (Hey! Rain? In L.A.? In September?). Let me just say that OEM Speedster windshield wiper blades may look cool, but they don't work worth a damn. I didn't stop to put up the top because I just assumed that the brief storm would quickly pass. It got worse. I got soaked. People were actually pointing and laughing in traffic. Geesh.
And the 2332 is now back to the clinic for some diagnosis. As Joe-Don-Billy-Ray-Jim-Bob Whooziewhatsis once said, "Speed takes time."

Patrick, I also have a 2332, that now has about 3000 miles on it. I have drag raced it (14.4 & 93mph, 0-60 in 4.93 sec) and autocrossed it, and generally driven it hard. No problems so far. I do get a bit of oil off the pulley above 6500 rpm, but can likely fix that by plumbing the breather box to the top of the carbs. I would be interested to hear how George Browns 2386 is doing, but it is probably also uneventful. If done right, there is no reason to fear a hi-po type 1.
Ron

Patrick,

I have a 2056 TIV in my speedster. It is a Raby engine. I have only taken it out a couple of times so far, as I have some other bug to work out, but the power and torque is more than enough in my mind. Unless you are really crazy like Paul, I think the 2056 is a good middle of the road, long lasting (I hope) engine.

John L.

Rain in LA? What is this world coming to. The wipers on our tubs are not all that great as you mention but a liberal coating of Rain X works wonders to rid the water from the windshields. Problem is generally you have to have road speed of over 45 MPH for the stuff to work, under that I guess we are dependant on the tiny wipers! Maybe you should have pulled under a bridge or viaduct or the drive in awning of a Taco Bell! Was your Water Dog, Wiz with you? Bet he was loving it!

Bruce in sunny, dry Southern Oregon

Hey Patrick,

There is a lot of hype and nostalgia that go along with Webber 48 IDAs. They are awesome when they work. I think the key is waiting and finding some older ones that were better built, or dealing directly with Art Thraen and getting them through him. He was able to fix the crappy parts of my carbs (accelerator pumps) that were wrong from the get-go, he replaced some of the linkage components that were also crap and then he did his third-hole thing.

Night and day driving the car now. Before the carbs could scream when wide open, provided the linkage didn't fall apart and that was about it. Now, they idle up through normal gear shifts and when I want to pass someone, the repsponse is more predictable.

The carbs still have a tendancy to load up when I'm just idling along at about 3000 RPM in traffic, but a little goose and they clear right up...problem is 3500-4000 and I'm in the felony zone!

Word of caution to all who buy performance carbs, once they are sold, the vendor laughs all the way to the bank. They could care less about how shitty the quality is. My Webbers were a prime example.

I'll sift through the binder that came with the engine and see if there was a components list for your friend. Most of my options/upgrades/decisions were done over the phone and I don't remember much other than "send more money!"

JoeBOBBILLY& Harlin were all right, going fast does take time!

Paul had some issues with my engine and they were not small unfortunately.

Engines are mechanical, and sometimes one ends up better than another. When Paul and I originally started his process we were building him a 2316cc engine that would make around 170BHP. When I dynoes the engine Paul got the urge for some extra power and I had just had a customer back out of the buid of a much bigger engine as his wife was pregnant and he soon found out that he had bit off more than he could chew.

I was able to give Paul a break on the engine money wise (it was still damn expensive as it was 2600cc) but not as much as the original customer was going to pay for it. This helped me out as well as Paul.

When Paul received the engine he didn't have very much time to get any shake down runs under its belt before the trip to Knotts and make sure that the engine and complete car were working as they should. He was right down to the wire and only had it running a day or so before the show.

To make a very long story short Pauls engine was not normal in size, nor was it normal of a Type IV, or even my work. This is the first time that we had this type of an engine problem with a customer so far away.

Things could have went better than they did, in all aspects. Stick with a Type IV engine smaller than a 2316, like we originally built for Paul and things will be much simpler. The smaller engines still make great power, they have less mods needed to the heads and are great platforms for reliability and Performance.

Most of the Time the larger TIVs are as well, but like I said every now and then anything will have a failure. This is multiplied when you are making more HP on one cylinder the entire stock TI engine made on all 4.

Paul would have been better suited with a smaller engine, even though he wanted alot more HP.

BTW, Paul those temperatures are very good. 350 is the stock running temp of an engine thats 100HP smaller than yours. anything over 400 is when to worry but 325 is a very solid running temp.

Paul,
Nice meeting you & the guys at the show. Your car should have taken first. Too bad that motor was so temperamental after all the tons of money you put into the build. I'm a T4 guy but the extra cushion of money spent should have gone hand in hand with reliability.
Hope Raby stood behind his motor.
D-Man

I tried...But in the end I did not stand behind the engine.

The engine did not end up coming back to me. He chose to repair it on his end and not ship the entire engine back.

Jake,
Certainly admire your honesty in this open forum regarding not standing behind Paul's engine.
I'm planning a future build & my biggest dillemma has been picking an engine that is adequate in power, reliable in nature that won't blow at random like the Mexican motor equiped Speedsters that I have read about in this forum.
Because my preference is the T4, I was considering having the King of The 4's build my motor:JR. Now, I'm OK with your not offering a "written warranty" but would like to know what happens in the worst case scenario when the engine has problems. Who would pay for the transport back to Georgia, considering I live in CA, just like Paul. What about labor & parts related to any malfunctions? Would that be up to the client?
Also, would you recommend a tamer build for reliability?
D-Man

All these questions, just like any question pertaining to my business should be taken off line. It doesn't benefit the other posters here. Please send me an email.

All engines are covered by a warranty while on the dyno. Once they leave I never know who installs them, how they are driven, and what state of tune they are kept. All my work can be killed with a jetting change, or timing change. Ultimately all engines are mechanical and mine have the same chances of dying as anyone elses.

When a failure occurs I do my best to make the situation easier. The customer has to pay for shipping back the engine and then based upon his attitude I adjust my prices for repairing the engine(parts and labor). When the customer becomes outraged, or incapable of being pleased I cease my efforts 100%.

Every instance is different, most are no where as extreme as what Paul and I endured. Its just like a race car, it might make 1 lap, or 1 million- no one ever knows. I do my best but I'm not god and can't work mechanical miracles.

Once again, this is not an open forum about me and my engines and Thereon appreciates it if we keep particulars off line. email us for all the details.

Jake,
Fair enough. Thanks for responding as much as you did & being candid about the possible variables & downfalls that may occur when undertaking the task of building a Raby-Motor.
D-Man

I agree Jake, however, you had your full say. Let's see what Paul has to say and then call it a day.

Paul, what sayeth thou?

I'm sure that Paul's overview will be vastly different. I was the seller and he was the purchaser. Until anyone was in the midst of any of our dialogue back and forth they wioll never know what really happend to turn our relationship from friends into fight to the death enemies.

That is what I had thought too. In the beginning Paul was a prime candidate to show off my efforts. Thats why I cut him a really good deal on such a large engine that I felt was more than reliable enough (it has been for 7 other customers, oe of which drives the car from Baton Rouge LA to Orlando FL all the time)

When small problems got larger and I had to make decisions based on my feelings, Paul did not agree. Things got very unfriendly and as of this writing we are not even on speaking terms.

I did my best to remain professional, tactful and support my product. I was not able to please Paul and for that I am not only sorry but seriously bummed. What should have been an extraordinary chance to gain a friend and follower/supporter was not. I will now gain bad press from an engine that I had planned to exhibit my finest work.

Paul's style and radical motoring is why I offered him the choice of the Weber IDA series carburetors. This too panned out to be a drastic mistake.The radical powerband of those carbs I thought would go hand in hand with Paul. I had no way of knowing the carbs would have issues that would show up on Pauls trip to SOCAL for the Knotts show.

I felt so strongly that the engine would be reliable and non fussy that I wanted Paul to drive it across country to the show in Carlisle.

Paul does have his own version, and I'm sure he will share it with us all.

I'm very accustomed to customers being so pleased that they invite me into their homes(Like Bob Barker did above), send me gifts and etc.... When something like this happened it really hits home and makes one wish he worked at Burger King- but even there you can't please everyone.

Jake,
"Fight to the death"?
Based on past posts, my money was on Paul's humorous nature & passion for radical motoring to be a perfect marriage for your passion to deliver a radical supreme motor backed with a bona fide semper fi credo.Guess I was wrong. Please tell me George Brown didn't move in to your annex and is now collaborating in the dyno room (grin).
D-Man

Jake, I met Paul at the Southern Cal show. He fired that engine up and I was TOTALLY mesmerized. That engine hit 7,000 rpms in a milli-second. I was just standing there wondering what had just happened. I saw the tech and still did not believe it. It was like a 2-stroke motorcycle racing engine. Great job!! Darryll

Thanks, I really appreciate that.(and need it on this one)

None of it counts till the owner feels the same way though, and unfortunately he does not.

Hi J.R. I just want you to know I saw your engine at San Leandro last weekend. I didn't get to talk to Paul, but I was extreamly impressed. I am condsidering building a new block with a friend this winter, but after seeing your efforts, I think I will save my money and have you build 2360 . I would rather drive with confidence,than with my limited talents. I am truly sorry for the falling out, but hey, you cant"t win them all. Years ago I had a Kieth Black Chevy built for me that thing was a screamer. It failed too, but hell I just racked it up to high , It was supposed to take more,but didn't. I learned a vauble lesson, shit happens. Although no one likes to see money down the drain, or a car down.,things do go wrong. I learned a long time ago perfection is an absolute, in this ever chaanging world sience teaches us there is no such thing as absolutes. I for one would love to have one of your motors.

Gents,

Jake is the man for type IV's. He builds the best, they sound the best,and perform the best. Jake also stands by his work. Unfortunetly some installers and replica builders with far less technical expertise screw things up once they recieve the engine and then have the balls to blame the customer or Jake when things go wrong -go figure.

Thanks guys...

Richard speaks from experience. I destroyed his engine on the dyno on its final power pull when a set of Rod bearings ended up being bad out of the box (wrong aluminum content)The scattering mishap cost him nothing. I lost all the profit from that build- thats what the dyno is for.

I repaired the sucker, 100% and got it right and then sent it to him. Richard was a great customer and understood what I was going through. He let me have the extra few weeks I needed to pick up the pieces and repair it all over again. Customers like Mr. St. Louis inspire me to keep going with my development of these engines and their applications. Others yell at me and customer support comes to an abrupt end and they are sent away with little or no support, and I utilize my lack of warranty to the fullest.(This is very odd, but has happened, and did happen with Paul's engine)

Thank you Richard for being a great customer and loving what I did for you, the same goes to all those lurkers here reading this post who have my engines in their cars. Guys like this make me overlook an entire weeks vacation that was miserable because I was worried about a certain engine and ONE customer out of several hundred that was not pleased.

I can't please everyone and if I could my name would only have 3 letters and I'd have holes through my hands from being nailed to a cross.

Jake,
My only regret is that you don't live in NJ.

I wish you could modify my 911 SC-but I am broke after the speedster!!.

Ship me the 911 when you save up some more money.. I have a few really trick ideas for one that I would love to try!

I am digging all the posts and I am getting some good info. Maybe I will drop GB a note get his take on the situation too.

Thanks,

p-

we are getting further and further from standard builds. I have dealt with alot of replicar and dune buggy makers and have had a hard time with some of them being the "Middle man". It throws my style off a bit.

Next year my engines will cost more and take longer. Wew will incorporate more developments that we discovered this year and I will be working hard to make it easier for the "normal Joe" to do a Type 4 conversion using good parts that are easy to find and with good directives to make it all happen. Our engine completions will hopefully drop by atleast 25% and the same revenue will be created through parts sales. The engine department will stay small and the engines will become better this way and the general public can have their own "MassIVe Type 4" easier!

That seems like a direction Jake. That may be the way to go. But, don't you think there is a market for the mid level T4s in the replicar dealer turnkey biz? If you stick to all high end customs do you think a competitor will eventually get into the Speedster builder market much as Pat has done with his T-1s?

I only have a beer every two weeks in post transplant life. (There are exceptions though). Tonight I will pull a cold Shiner out and silently say a good thing or two about a great guy.... Paul.

Neutral on your discussion folks. I just think Paul is a great guy who paid a lot of bucks in the George - Jake wars and, well... no dings on anyone, but here's a sip in honor of you Paul. Have your great Speedy ready this spring! I may surprise you with what I roll into LA with this spring.

Jake? Peace and a Q. Why don't you go into cahoots with one of the reputable Speedster manufacturers? Downs seems fairly comfortable with it! I am looking into a turnkey build, & I think that if I get a turn-key I should expect a reasonable warranty on a normally offered engine. Look at Henry's IM site PDF files and you'll see a 2110 and a 2165 T-1 listed as "normal" options. Have you considered this? George seemed to come out ok on a custom build through Downs & Henry, and John Steele seems to being doing his part on John Leaders new GT. Those are custom builds, not a 2110... so? See, I can see a T4, I just want it to come with the car build and at least a strong handshake.

I drove Dale's great IM with a T1 2165 and was impressed with the feel and unexpected smoothness. What a kick ass thing to be on the option's list/ JPS's site does much the same, and Kirk is known to work with Downs too. I'm just wondering why a T4 isn't in their optional engine list?

Jim

Looking at the Map Dale put out on Knotts entries. By hand measurement it looks like an equal drive from Vancouver to LA and OKC to LA.... cool. Here's to 2005!

I'm sure someone might... The fact is the more you turn out for just a moderate customer base the more chances we have of finding the "Bad eggs" in the crowd. when a replicar builder sells a car we have no idea if the customer is a huge jerk, or if he is the nicest guy on the planet. Not knowing exactly where my engine is going worries me because its a risk.

There are alot of other mediocre builders out there doing TIV engines. They have not developed them the way that Brent and I have but they do build things that are OK. I have no interest in building every engine on the planet- if i did I'd have 20 employees and be dragging cores up from the bottom of the Ocean like a couple of other places that specialize in just an "OK" engine. To them the customer is a number and he gets what he gets. They keep things on the shelf.

As the Type IV becomes more and more widespread I'm sure I will gain some competitors that we don't have now. They will benefit from my hard work in promoting the engines for the past 8 years religously. I really don't care because those who want the best will find the originator of the true "MassIVe type 4" and the others will just keep getting by.

By then we'll have it to the point where everyone can afford a Type 4 of some sort and be able to build it themselves. Hell I even plan on selling the tools one needs for the job!

I've sat on my hands for a few days on this, but since it has evolved into something more than "T1 vs T4", I'll jump in.

Those of us who have been around long enough, remember last winter's flame wars between GB and Jake. Essentially, George told Jake he wasn't the only solution to air-cooled power, and Jake told George to shut up and build his own engine. It got pretty heated.

Paul got pulled in because he wanted a bigger engine anyhow, and George's style had a lot of people ruffled. Jake promised Paul- in front of us all- the king-kong, big daddy, mother-of-all, Massive Extruderator Dinosaur Killer Bad-Boy Type IV. There was talk of drag races, cleaning clocks, shutting-ups, and all manner of posturing.

Paul got his engine- then.... nothing. Paul had a critical failure just before Knotts, and I haven't heard anything more about it (before now) since then. GB stopped posting, Paul kind of fell off the map, and Jake didn't try to sell anything for a couple of months. George posted occasionally with some good tips, as did Jake, but nobody stood on their desk and ripped their shirt open to expose their "real men drive Type (1 or 4, insert bias here)" tattoo, and shouted

Stan, great historical prespective. Thank you. But please leave me out of it; I don't want any more "have radiator" jokes at my expense. I loved my Speedster and I love VW power, but for me, I like the plug and play convenience of modern power which is inexpensive and abundant, enough for this old troll anyway.
jph

Stan (and others):

When I was a kid, I hung around Al Alden's engine shop in Massachusetts. Al was the premier Porsche engine builder for the racing set on the upper East Coast (and a truly nice guy). Porsche factory trained, wrench pulling for 20 years before I met him, starting in the Military (like a lot of folks).

When I was starting to build up air cooled dune buggy engines, I heard and read the same stuff about more and more horsepower. Al wasn't hung up on the age of the engine design (it is what it is) but he would be the first to tell you that if you stress ANY engine to the max, the reliability will lessen (duh! like we don't all know that) and things break. The doctors and lawyers who were buying his racing engines expected to win, expected to drive them very hard, expected things to break and expected AL to fix them (week after week, sometimes) and could well afford his services.

When I would go to him with, yet another wiz-bang part idea to get a few more horsepower out of a 1200cc VW (all I could afford), he would say: "Look.....you're a kid, and you don't have a lot of money to waste on this. I'll show you how to build one up with good power - not a giant killer, but good, reliable power with proven, reliable parts that will last for years. THAT's what you really want. You can't afford to be pulling your engine to fix it all the time like these doctors do."

I've always remembered that, and when I built up my 2110, I figured that was about the limit for displacement, power AND reliability that one could expect from a 1600-base VW case. I may be wrong, but I see quite a few trouble-free 2110's on this forum, and even more with less displacement, usually driven by us older folks whose years of hard accelerated starts are behind them (for the most part). That doesn't mean that you won't find the occasional soft cam or poorer quality parts - they are all aftermarket parts from smaller manufacturers than original VW's, but, given careful research of what is going into your engine and asking a lot of questions of others on here, I bet you can have a good, reliable, 140 - 150hp Type 1, OR Type 4 that will last for years. Then all you have to decide is to go with the cheaper T1 or the more expensive (and less stressed) T4.

What's in YOUR wallet?

I'm feeling better and better about my 1600 Type 1.

:)

Jerome

That was a very interesting overview and its pretty accurate! I tried my hardest on Pauls engine if for no other reason than in hopes of meeting up with GB at some point.

None of it worked.