I wanted to ask a question about something mentioned in Lane's auction thread, and realized it may be going off topic, so:
Pat Downs 2530 Type IV vs Jake Raby 2530 Type IV?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I don't think Jake Raby builds them anymore (he's moved on to other things). Pat Downs has recently (not sure when) started to build them. Phil recently had Pat build one for his IM.
@WOLFGANG posted:I don't think Jake Raby builds them anymore
Not true.
Jake will still build a killer T4 for you, if you can tell a compelling tale, have a giant pile of money, and the muse is upon him.
Also, a genuflect may be required. If you question any part of the process, the deal is off.
It will, however, be a killer engine stuffed full of unobtanium and pixidust.
@Stan Galat posted:Not true.
Jake will still build a killer T4 for you, if you can tell a compelling take, have a giant pile of money, and the muse is upon him.
Also, a genuflect may be required. If you question any part of the process, the deal is off.
It will, however, be a killer engine stuffed full of unobtanium and pixidust.
Ok, Stan, I laughed out loud at that! The sad part is that it's all true- the man who was going to educate the masses no longer has time for us mere mortals...
Here's link - A reputation built on excellence. – Raby Aircooled Technology
A Raby T4 for a VW based car is $28k! (includes RAT supplied $2k core plus $1.5k for exhaust - there are other options available so easy to reach $30k).
There's prices now? Last time I looked it was more of a "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" deal.
So yes, then-- a $30k+/- 200 hp T4. I'd love one... but not enough to sell a kidney.
Jakes engines have always been fantastic, but the price makes a Pat Downs T4 look like a bargain, and a crate LS/LT look almost free.
Stan it sounds like a membership into an exclusive club 
@ALB posted:Ok, Stan, I laughed out loud at that! The sad part is that it's all true- the man who was going to educate the masses no longer has time for us mere mortals...
I think he has educational videos and in-person classes at his shop.
I bought a 2165cc(not the biggest) type1 from Jake WAY back in 2002. I still have it, and like a certain actress said, it's SPECTACULAR!
I bought it when $6K was the buy-in. I think a CB turn-key by Pat Downs was $5k at the time. I drove it for about 35,000 miles before replacing pistons and cylinders and refurbishing the heads. I had done crankfire standalone ignition almost from the get-go(maybe 3-5000 miles in). I added an Autocraft dry sump system later on.
Then finally I changed to Speeduino EFI. I initially fired it up on ignition only and got that right, then added the fueling after replacing the carbs with CB 48mm ITB.
It was money VERY well spent. Some have said, it's the best-running type1 they've ever seen. I agree.
I have no need for a type4, but I think they're cool. Jake charges a lot of money, but that 30k is a drop in the bucket if you look at the prices of Jake's watercooled Porsche offerings. Bring two kidneys, and a testicle.
@DannyP posted:Some have said, it's the best-running type1 they've ever seen.
I thought my twin-plug 2276 was the best running T1 I'd ever driven. Then I drove Danny's car.
Like I said, "a killer engine stuffed full of unobtanium and pixidust."
Amazing.
My 2.65 L Pat Downs T4 cost me about $20k. Exhaust was extra. I supplied new 48 Dells. It’s a stump puller. I think he would charge more now. But it wouldn’t be $30k. I know he’s building the same engine, with 48 Webers, for Greg. Greg is building a Pre-A Coupe for himself. It’s going to be a beast. The Pre-A Coupe with the sunroof sitting in his show room is one of the nicest replicas I’ve ever seen.
The one he built in white “Continental” was a beauty. I love Coupes
Update ….I really was hoping IM would have built one...
@550 Phil - Where did you find the Dellortos?
@howdo posted:@550 Phil - Where did you find the Dellortos?
I have two sets of 48 Dellortos (regulars and tri-jets). I’m not ever going to use them. PM me if you’re looking and interested.
@howdo posted:@550 Phil - Where did you find the Dellortos?
I know I’ve told this story a couple of times. These were new in box 1989 Dells that I bought from Jake Raby in 1999. I stored them for 25 years waiting for the right project.
Wait another couple of years and the story might need to be repeated
@Stan Galat posted:I have two sets of 48 Dellortos (regulars and tri-jets). I’m not ever going to use them. PM me if you’re looking and interested.
Stan you know you want a big T4 one day. Maybe you should save them.
I know, Phil, your car was awesome with the top. I ordered a hardtop but it took so long to build the car and they had yet to start on the top. I got tired of waiting and scrubbed the top… then a year or so after I asked IM to do it and they refused to do it claiming they needed the car, which I knew but I believe with the hand off of the sale of the company they were not able.or were unwilling due to other constraints. Stuff happens…
Honestly the hard top looked cool but it wasn’t practical. The soft top on my IM was so weather tight I think the hard top was unnecessary. I drove my IM with the soft top from Norfolk to the outer banks of NC during a Northeaster. Not a drop in the car. I always think that I should have kept that car. But honestly I didn’t like the colors and it was about 120hp. My new used IM is beautiful with a beastly T4. I think it will match my personality better.
Attachments
Images (2)
@550 Phil posted:Stan you know you want a big T4 one day. Maybe you should save them.
It'll be EFI if I do it.
.
@Stan Galat posted:.Like I said, "a killer engine stuffed full of unobtanium and pixidust."
The problem today is that unobtainium is getting harder and harder to find.
.
@Stan Galat posted:It'll be EFI if I do it.
There you go. Is this a neighboring separatist fiefdom?
It would make sense if Curvistan was next to Stanistan.
Attachments
Images (1)
@howdo posted:I think he has educational videos and in-person classes at his shop.
I seem to recall that he also has a small network of “authorized builders” that build engines to his spec, like he does authorized installers for his IMS Solution for M96/97 engines. How much cheaper it would be to have them assemble one, who knows?
@WNGD posted:I draw the line at two kidneys....
Keep your kidneys. Just have Pat build it. He’s got a pretty good reputation as an engine builder.
@550 Phil posted:My 2.65 L Pat Downs T4 cost me about $20k.
@550 Phil posted:Keep your kidneys. Just have Pat build it.
I dunno', man. What's the going rate for a kidney? Jake's T4 is at $30K. Pat's is at $20k. 200 +/- hp on the dyno either way.
A 6.2 LS3, brand new, all set up and ready to rumble (straight from the General) is 430 hp and <$9k delivered to your door. No secret handshake. No genuflects. No muse. No unobtanium or pixi-dust (but a roller cam, etc.). No waiting 9 months (and counting).
There are times when I think we're in the wrong hobby.
Makes me wish Chuck had put out more Lister replicas. An LS3 in one of those would be fantastic.
I hear you, David-- I just can't love the Lister body, though.
I'm looking at Cobra replicas lately. They're about the same money as a Speedster with 4x the power. It's tempting. I used to not want to be "that guy" -- but anymore, I don't think I care. I have a pavement princess diesel truck with a 3-1/2" lift. I'm mashing every hick-town white-trash stereotype button ever generated. A Cobra pretty much fits my present ethos. I'm not caring much what anybody thinks these days.
A Devin could be cool. A C2 Vette replica with an LS3 would make me weak all over.
@Stan Galat posted:I dunno', man. What's the going rate for a kidney? Jake's T4 is at $30K. Pat's is at $20k. 200 +/- hp on the dyno either way.
A 6.2 LS3, brand new, all set up and ready to rumble (straight from the General) is 430 hp and <$9k delivered to your door. No secret handshake. No genuflects. No muse. No unobtanium or pixi-dust (but a roller cam, etc.). No waiting 9 months (and counting).
There are times when I think we're in the wrong hobby.
I'm a big fan of an LS in anything!! I put an LS3 in my Hot Rodded 1941 Cadillac when I built it. Boy did it wake that car up !!. I had a guy do a performance tune on it and without much work, got a bunch more power. The tuner said the stock LS's come way under tuned from GM. I used an after market ECU so it was easy to make adjustments by plug and play with the computer.
Attachments
Images (2)
.
So, what's the word on actually driving plastic Cobras?
I see gaggles of them at every C&C, but not so much out driving. From afar, even more so than Harleys, the word seems to be LOUD. And I can see how that wouldn't go down well on longer road trips.
Are there any throttle positions between off and on?
Also, are there tops? Or does the LS sort of vibrate rain drops away?
I have always liked the way they look and can see how they'd be way less fiddly to keep going than the mighty T1. But I can also imagine the looks I'd get from the missus upon even broaching the subject.
In general, I'm not good at broaching as it is.
.
In terms of cobras, the 289 or “slab side” is what gets me weak in the knees. Unfortunately, those seem to be the cobra replicas that draw the most money…aside from the Kirkham.
The other car I’d love to have would be a small block Austin Healey. Or Cobra Killer. Every once in awhile you see one on BaT. Given the modification, the purists decide not to throw out top dollar for them. (With some exceptions of course).
https://bringatrailer.com/list...-healey-3000-mkii-3/
https://bringatrailer.com/list...aley-bn1-v8-special/
https://bringatrailer.com/list...-4-seat-roadster-25/
Not a small block, but a cool looking car:
https://bringatrailer.com/list...100-bn2-roadster-29/
This “speedwell” is pretty cool for a small car as well:
Then again, for the cost of a new speedster, one could put a little piece of sunshine in their garage:
https://bringatrailer.com/list...956-jaguar-d-type-5/
Not quite the General’s LS. But that Jaguar inline 6 sounds sweet.
This one is a bit extreme in cost, no doubt given the aluminum bodywork….but the driving videos! That sweet orchestra being produced. That sound alone most likely drove up the price.
https://bringatrailer.com/list...957-jaguar-d-type-2/
We have had a D-type on our rally in the past. Nothing beats looking in your rear view mirror and seeing that car.
Attachments
Images (2)
@Stan Galat posted:I hear you, David-- I just can't love the Lister body, though.
I'm looking at Cobra replicas lately. They're about the same money as a Speedster with 4x the power. It's tempting. I used to not want to be "that guy" -- but anymore, I don't think I care. I have a pavement princess diesel truck with a 3-1/2" lift. I'm mashing every hick-town white-trash stereotype button ever generated. A Cobra pretty much fits my present ethos. I'm not caring much what anybody thinks these days.
A Devin could be cool. A C2 Vette replica with an LS3 would make me weak all over.
Stan, my buddy bought a Kirkham 427 polished bodied "roller" a few years back. He had a, "still in the crate 427 SOHC motor" that he had Art Chrisman prep and install it in the Cobra. He ended up with 850 HP when it was all done. What a beast ........!!
Attachments
Images (1)
@Kevin - Bay Area posted:In terms of cobras, the 289 or “slab side” is what gets me weak in the knees. Unfortunately, those seem to be the cobra replicas that draw the most money…aside from the Kirkham.
The other car I’d love to have would be a small block Austin Healey. Or Cobra Killer. Every once in awhile you see one on BaT. Given the modification, the purists decide not to throw out top dollar for them. (With some exceptions of course).
https://bringatrailer.com/list...-healey-3000-mkii-3/https://bringatrailer.com/list...aley-bn1-v8-special/
https://bringatrailer.com/list...-4-seat-roadster-25/
Not a small block, but a cool looking car:
https://bringatrailer.com/list...100-bn2-roadster-29/
This “speedwell” is pretty cool for a small car as well:
We have very similar tastes. The 289 Cobras are my pick too, the widebody versions don't do much for me.
Put me down for a slab-side as well. Either that of a 289 FIA.
When I was first researching replica ownership I gravitated to Cobras because of their looks and commonality. I soon found I much preferred the Speedster folks to the uber-macho "mine's bigger than yours" attitude that seemed prevalent on the Cobra sites.
Chuck has always wanted to do the lIster "on more time" but we've been so busy it just doesn't make sense. It was also never one of my favorite shapes, BUT the lure of LS power and pure performance for LESS money than a current PDP Type 1 motor is appealing also...
Regarding Pat's TIV motors I see a LOT of reference here to Phil's TIV build and cost, but keep in mind that was sort of a test bed for Pat doing TIVs and I've seen a few TIV quotes from my clients recently and they are 25-30% over what Phil paid.
Greg knows a guy in Phoenix building T4’s and that’s about it. I just haven’t heard of too many folks out there who will do it. Yes shop around.
Regarding cobras I did a lot of research in the early 2000’s before I ordered my 2nd Spyder. Slab sides are definitely the prettiest and closest to the original. Superformance are the best builds. At least they were in 2001. But the no weather protection thing was an issue. And at the time Greg lured me back in by offering to build the first Suby Spyder ever. By the way I also looked at the Beck Lister in 2001. I thought it was drop dead gorgeous. And if I had decided to go in the V8 direction I would have bought a Lister.
I’m assuming that Carey would not build another Lister. Is that a fact or a never say never.
@550 Phil posted:
I’m assuming that Carey would not build another Lister. Is that a fact or a never say never.
Never say never... lmao. We're making up ground on existing orders, slower than I want but in the right direction, and I'm curbing or at least extending out, the really custom builds since they take all of my personal time. I actually thought it may be wise just to retool the Lister and warehouse the project for "some day" in the future.
Attachments
Images (2)
