Type IV in Intermeccanica?

Hello All

I've read dozens of the Type 1 vs Type IV threads; some great information and incredibly humorous exchanges! I'll steer well clear of the "which is better" topic.

I know that there are a bunch of guys running Type IV engines in various Speedsters and Roadsters of all makes. One question I do have is, has anyone asked Henry at IM to install a Jake Raby Type IV/"B" Transaxle in a new build? I know that generally Intermeccanica uses CB Type 1 engines, but I have seen some of IM's 911 engine installations.

Therefore, I was wondering if Henry ever fulfilled a customer request to install a Jake Raby Type IV in a new IM Convertible D order. And if so, I wonder how the whole integration process between IM and RAT went.

As I understand it, there was a three way phone call between those concerned. When the total cost of the parts were discolosed by the vendor, the client decided to go in a different direction.

Henry builds a great car
Jake builds a great engine.
Problem melding the two is ________________!
(fill in your own reason)

Gawd! I can't resist this, 'and with a tube frame like Henry builds it would be a superior platform!'

Moderate this________!

I may be off base here, but since Henry doesn't have anything setup with Jake, the price is probably pretty hi, and Henry is definitely not going to be able to provide any warranty on the engine.

Yeah, Steve - I'm sure the combined price would be pretty steep since you are paying top dollar (for quality) on both. The combination does sound like it would be really great, though. The Type IV is a nice engine.

However, in terms of the CB Type I's in IM new build's, I don't hear many negative stories on the forum. There are a lot of threads on Type 1 disasters, but then again, many of these seem to be on older cars, replacement engines, modifications, etc. I don't hear many complaints about engine problems on new IM builds. I would love to be able to pick up an IM Roadster in Vancouver and drive back home to NY....at least, I think I would!! :-)

Seriously, when it comes to dollars and sense, even though I had a falling out with his Rabiness over his customer service, if you look at modestly high performance engine costs, I don't think there's that much difference between an engine like Jim Wards and the 150HP Raby-range Type4.

I spent $4,500 rebuilding a relatively new 1776 type1 to 135HP. So if new from scratch that was probably a $6,700 engine.

Cool CB powerhouses got to be more than that and if you're in the $8,000 neighborhood, dare I sayit, why not go to real power with a type4?

If you want to avoid any Raby-ring-kissing and all the elect-me-Pope-poop that goes with his products, Phat Performance has a line of type 4 engines also.

Oh-oh, I feel some modulation coming on!

Christopher, the best person to ask is Henry. He can tell you the up cost to go with the "super 90" he is putting in his cars or the 2110 that he uses. I have driven both, although not for very long and can tell you the 2110 without the lightend flywheel is a terriffic engine. In town it putters along and is a dream to shift, on the road it scoots. The 2165 in my car (also from CB) has a lightend flywheel and spins up faster and is a LOT quicker ;-) but it is also not as fun in town to drive.

I have never driven a T-4 but I am very satisfied with my T-1.

Call Henry.

My T-1 2110 in my IM has reached the 5,500 in mile mark in less than 5 months, no issues, runs very smoothly and has been a compliment to the overall quality of the car.

Dale wanna do a car swap part way to Ventura show???
Walk on the wild side buddy!

The lovely Mrs. Bates will be traveling with me, so I have to say, No thanks. You're car is to scary fast for me. That engine in my car would be interesting. Not because of the TUBE frame, but because of my comfortable seats.

Lunch next week, my friend?

You all know that there are many builders of type 4 engines besides Jake right? What's with the question marks?

"What's with the question marks?"

It's a long story?? But some people use question marks on their declarative statements in addition to their question statements, and there was some comment on this practice???

So, we all have to be careful to use question marks properly, eh????

But, you already know this, don't you?????

In reply to Ron:"You all know that there are many builders of type 4 engines besides Jake right?"

Thanks to this group, yes I do!

Henry's ability to warranty the full package is important to me, so I may decide to go with a CB Type I 2110 or 2165, both of which seem to get a big thumbs up.

If Henry can recommend and install a Type IV built by Fat Performance (or another manufacturer), then a Type IV might still be up for consideration. This is probably a conversation that I will have to have directly with Henry.

For either a Type I or Type IV application, I would be interested in utilizing fuel injection rather than carbs. CB lists some fuel injection options on their website and even state :"It's our feeling that fuel injection is the future of the VW aftermarket". So I think I would go this route. Anyone running a new CB fuel injection system?

- opps, I used a question mark :-)

Thank you Dr. Carley?
Bro Ron

Chris ,
If you are considering EFI on your type I or Type IV that adds a bit more to your initial post. There are a few builders that are installing EFI systems on the motors including Jake Raby. I have Type VI built by Jake . I'm very please with the engine and the service provided. I have made a few mistakes with my engine and Jake has been very easy to work with. I have learned through this car build along with my past engine deals when racing that anything can and will happen. What it boils down to is ... when you are hashing out the problems with an engine builder or car builder you need to treat them just like the way you would want be treated. If you come off like a bull in a china shop to will make little or no effort. So Chris do you homework. Check out Shoptalkform. Brush up on your mechanical skills if you are not a hands on car person.
This forum is to help one another and is not made to take out frustrations. If you want info call the car builder or engine builder directly. Write up a script of question to ask them. Let them know of your concerns. Ask about any problems or issues you my have heard of. It's your money and your choice.You 'll have to live with it anyway you look at it. Just make the best of it !
Joe

I'm speedster-less in Texas this week.
On the other note, I think I see an income opportunity in front of me...A guy tells his wife he's going to buy a speedster and commences to explain engine options.

As she is glazing over she mutters it has be safe or some such blather. The guy just wants a reasonably fitted 2110 with 150HP but she is not so sure.

Cut to a few days later, the guy has called Paul's Get in, Hang-on, Shup-up test drive services. A little pamphlet and a couple sub 4second runs to 60MPH in my Madd Maxx-mobile. CB 2110 SOLD!

I recently talked with Henry at IM when a customer was contemplating my engine and DTM in his IM that Henry is building.

We had a very good chat and Henry and I saw no issues with dimension and etc with either the engine or shroud or exhaust.

Unfortunately the customer could not hang out on my wait list for the duration so he did not purchase my engine. Henry has less backlog for entire cars than I do for just the engine, so that may pose an issue even if you decided to go with RAT power.

I have had many owners of IM Speedsters and Roadsters buy either my full engine, or just the shroud and install it on an engine they bought elsewhere or from a salvage yard.

Either way the TIV is a great aircooled alternative to the TI power plant.

BTW- EFI has been STD equipment on all RAT engine for about 5 months now, I'm working to get totally away from Carburetors and as soon as the current proposed engines are out the door thats what will happen.

Now a type IV without those silly old carbs would be great. I kind of wondered since the carbs give so much trouble and are so hard to get tuned and stay tuned why people hadn't switched over sooner?

Jake, is it a lot of work to put the EFI on those engines? Do you have to do a lot of modification or something or is it a known quantity already existing system and brand name your using?

If I was inclined to do the type 4 that would make a huge difference to me, having the convenience of EFI over the carbs. Have you seen a performance change as in more HP or better low end HP? Does it make the cylinder head temps cooler since the EFI keeps things more exact?

This is very cool, I want to know more about it?

I have been (and continue to even today) testing 6 different EFI set ups and when I came up with the best one all around I have now been working to further optimize it.

The EFI arrangement that I have is specifically made for the TIV and equipped with my cooling system. Just last week I finished a new bellcrank style stainless steel linkage for it as a final touch.

You can read more about it here on my store link. http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/home.php?cat=320
It is the only TIV specific system that comes 100% complete right down to the fuel pump, filters and pressure regulator. If I build the engine its all optimized on the dyno with YOUR components so you just bolt it in and go- all you supply are the fuel hoses.

If you already have an engine I can upload some of the fuel MAPs I have for an engine similar and send you the kit mostly tuned- you optimize it digitally from the driver's seat and you don't need a laptop to do it. The main reason I have bneen testing EFI so much is to gain different fuel MAPs for a database that will make tuning engines much easier in the long run.

I will be uploading a ton of pics today of a couple of my EFI installs so you can check them out later today if you want here http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/theysay.html

As for power differences- Hell yeah EFI makes more power! I have seen some incredible results and datalogged them all for upload when the testing is all finished. So far I have tested 6 different EFI systems against each other and against carbs- I wasn't testing only power, but moreover temps and efficiency. EFI really shines on smaller displacement engines better than huge engines that have the displacement (vacuum)to make the carbs work better generally. I have seen everything from 20% power gains with EFI all the way to power losses with EFI Vs. carbs. I have also tested some set ups using carbs as the throttle bodies, therefore taking away the "Edge" that venturiless throttle bodies sometimes give to EFI in other tests.

So, enough of that... There will eb a ton of buzz about when my results get posted here in a couple of months http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/research.htm As I stated its very hard to build a modern engine with carbs, especially when the carb companies are supplying us with junk carbs more and more everyday. I got tired of carburetor issues and the problems they caused and decided to march to thebeat of a modern drum.

Back to the topic at hand:
The TIV is a GREAT engine for a Speedster!

BTW_ I don't sell engines to vehicle manufacturers, I deal with the customer purchasing the car. The car builder will not be driving my engine, or paying for it. Many builders won't recommend buying an engine from a guy like me because they can't "make their cut" on the deal...... Henry wasn't that way at all- He wanted the customer to be pleased and was more than willing to install my engine in the customers car.

Great info Jake - a real education. Thanks!

BTW- Here are a few of those pics..

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/dworrell/index.html