Tyre clearance question

Dropped my project back onto its wheels. I'm using the old skinny rims at the moment, I still have the nice shiney ones in my office.

Rear wheels appear to be rubbing on the back of the arch....Theres no engine in just now, is that why they are touching??

Is an old CMC kit and its sitting square on the pan, I have the same problem on both sides :( Its a swing axle rear

Some pics in the morning

Been out for another look this morning.......I reckon the weight of the engine in place should reduce the camber and fix the problem......

What do you all think ?

My new rims are 5 1/2J on the rear and I was planning on 185/65x15 tyres...Or should I move down to 165's


Cheers
Gerry

Gerry:

You're right. Once the engine's back there it should settle down and not rub - especially with a passenger or two on board.

The 185's might be borderline for size on a swingaxle setup. Best to get the opinion of those who are running them and what wheel diameter they are running, too.

I thought the swing axel had a narrower rear than IRS? And those are OEM 4.5" rims? That appears too close - even with weight added it is still going to come back to that point as your crest a dip.

As much as possible try to keep 185's. I upgraded to 185's this past summer and yikers, it sticks a lot better.

From what I understand, the swing axles came in three lengths, I had to install axles from a '65 Bug in order to clear my rear fenders with the wider wheels.

I think that these lengths are probably correct.

The '61 to '66 swing axles are 26 11/16 inches.
The '67 swing axles are 27 13/16 inches.
The '68 swing axles are 28 7/16 inches.

Lots of room for adjustment here.

Thanks for the replies!

Its a '67 pan..

Gonna try throwing some weight on the back, see what effect it has.

Don't forget that a swing axle rear will get way positive camber after it has been lifted off the ground and will stay positive until it is ROLLED forward(if the toe is correct) a few feet.. Even in those dollies, I would expect to see excessive positive camber until they are removed and the car is rolled. I bet after the weight of the engine is added and the car is moved you could expect to clear that quarter panel easily.

I bet you will have to switch to the shorter stock axles.

"I bet you will have to switch to the shorter stock axles."

How would that work? I'd have thought that the pan would be the limiting factor, determining the length of the axles. (I'm still building my VW knowledge...)

Any other CMC users have shorter axles? Nothing mentioned in the manuals other than possible changes at the front if using a strut based pan.

Cheers
Gerry

"How would that work? I'd have thought that the pan would be the limiting factor, determining the length of the axles."

Nope pan and torsion plates stay the same, the length is determined by the axle, axle tube and bearing carrier/housing.

If you DO decide to swap out the long for short, you best option is to hit TheSamba or someplace similar and get the entire assembly. Either both sides complete out to the drums, or one including the transaxle.

There are just SO many bits that you're going to need, and the assembly order is SO precise that having everything right will almost make the difference between success and not-so-success. The backing plates brake cylinders changed over the years as well, they can mix and match successfully, but again, a visual right in front of you is WAY better than the exploded diagram will EVER be.

I could go on, but you understand, I'm sure. If you decide, be sure to get MORE than you think you'll need. I went through this twice and STILL ended up having to make my own oil slingers, 'cause neither axle assembly had them in place.


Luck,

Zee Forum PrIcK, non?

Oui!

OK Done my research and now see where the extra length goes.....

Not measured my axles yet but I guess I have the long axles ....BUMMER !

Is it a big job involving messing around in the gearbox or is it a matter of unbolting at the gearbox and bolting in the shorties....


Just what I don't need :(

TC - think he is in Scotland too. Not sure if there are many VW junk yards there! Could he do the IRS swap and get narrower stance? Those parts might be easier to come by there.

I'm pretty sure the axle swap is just unbolting from the trans and nothing else on that end. As TC said, it's all on the wheel end.

I feel pretty confident in saying that an IRS swap wouldn't really give him any more clearance as the only way to narrow the rear track is skinny wheels or....... I can't go there...........it's still too painful to think about.

I would keep what you have, put the engine in, roll it and see where you are. Then you can measure and see what you need.

Any thought to a wheel offset?

Junk yards....European legislation is slowly shutting them down...In my day, cars were stacked 4 high and I used to climb around them ! (health and safety....)

Still a pretty big VW scene in the UK, I'm pretty sure I can track down the narrow axles....Otherwise, they will be in my luggage on the next US trip !

And here was me thinking I'd be on the road by the end of summer.... :(

Aren't many "pick and pay" junk yards on NE US coast either. (Replaced by computerized recycling facilities). I too remember walking the oil/antifreese soaked path ways.

Article in How to Customize Your VW (1988) that shows how to convert Late Brakes on an Early Bug. You could follow instructions in reverse. '67 was a odd year according to article. By going '66 back you got 51.2" wheel track vice the '68 53.5" - so a good 1" each side. It looks like you'd need axels and the axel tubes.

I'll scan the 3 page article and email it to ya.

The thickness of the drums themselves (the length of the splines) is different between long and short axles, by about .600" if I recall correctly. Long axle drums can be machined off to be used on short axles, not a big deal, just be aware. I milled down a set of type III brake drums to use on my short axle car after I converted from long to short axles.

Cars (wide 5's)are sometimes use type 3 brakes and drums, they have wider braking surface and offer better stopping....

Then there are wide 5 versus 4 bolt arrangements. It is not hard to change out one for the other, the usual problem is determining what you have now...then figured out where you want to be, then figure out how to do it....

Wolfgang, that would be great if you could scan that for me !

address is gerry.mclaughlan@lineone.net

Thanks for all of the input folks, I've put up ads in the local forums, hopefully get some quick responses.

Cheers
Gerry

Emailed you the 3 pages as separate emails.

Arrived safely, Thanks Wolfgang!!

Why not look at converting the car to IRS suspension? It will take some mods but will make it track better. Dont'cha think?

I don't want to be a party pooper here, but wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier just to get a pair of rear wheels that are dished in another 3/4"- 1" and be done with it? That way you could run 185's and never have to worry PLUS there would be no axle mods necessary. There's plenty of inside clearance to the spring plates to allow more inner dish, too.

I'm just sayin'.........Or maybe I missed something up above and am out beyond the pitch.....

gn

If it's only about getting 185's on the car I suppose the negative offset would suffice. I thought it was about wheel well clearance. If he has little to no clearance with stock 4 bolt vw wheels (Zero positive offset) then he's gonna be really pinched with any other wheel.

Having spent some time today lying under my mates IRS beetle, removing engine to replace crankshaft oil seal..., it would be plenty of work to put in IRS on my '67 pan.....The short axle option looks to be a reasonably straightforward, bolt in option.

There must be more than a few CMC owners on here...What axle/wheel combos are you folks running??? Difference in long/short axles is easy to see with a quick look behind the wheel. On the axles, there is a "lump" between backplate and spring plate. On the short axle its in the middle, on the long, its more to one side....

Just my luck to have a '67, one year chassis.....

I think my second CMC (wide body) speedy has an IRS set up with 15" Porsche Phone Dials

"Just my luck to have a '67, one year chassis..... "

It really IS good luck if you're are building on a budget and are planning to keep the stock trans. For a home builder looking for the "stock" appearance of a swing axle in a 356 replica, but still wanting to stay with traffic, the 1967 trans is a real keeper. Ol' Skool swing axle suspension, but with "modern" gearing which is much more compatible with the bigger 1600 engine.

Really.

At one point, before custom built boxes became the norm, the '67 transaxle was the one to use. I have one myself that isn't for sale, I'll find the perfect use for it one day.

FP

Picked up my short axle setup tonight :)

I have a CMC on a 73 irs. I didn't have any rear clearence problems but I did grind off the 1/2" to 3/4" lips on my fenders. i got them down to look like a steel body. That might help.

Hi MArk, what size tire/rims are you running

And some photos - Mark.