Update on brake imbalance

Lane, shortening the springs on at the wheels will give you more travel on the eBrake.  That was Carey's recommendation. I did it and it was better, but still not great.  I'm hoping for a better experience with the rear disc brakes.

How much did you shorten them?

About 3/8#, if memory serves me right.

3/8"

Come to think of it, I remember doing that the last time I was in there.  After looking at the bits and pieces, it appears that the cables are simply too short. The fly in that ointment is that this problem was not in evidence when the car was delivered.  I have just discovered (from reading the Bentley VW manual) that the adjusters are NOT symmetrical, a fact that I was not aware of.  It is critical to have them in the proper orientation or you will not get the adjustment correct.  Guess I'll be pulling the drums after all, and checking the adjusters.  I wonder if that has something to do with the e-brake issue.

 

I really, really, REALLY hope that pulling the drums doesn't start things leaking again.  I'm really over f**king with the rear brakes.  Seriously tired.

!@%$!!!!

 

Well this morning's discoveries were interesting, to say the least.

1. Yes, I have already shortened the e-brake return springs.  The cables really appear to be too short.
2. All four adjuster notches were correctly oriented.
3. The insides of both drums were dry and free from axle shaft grease, except...
4. The shoes on the right (weak) side had grease on them, and had contaminated the drum surface.

I appears that my local mechanic friend had reused the old contaminated shoes from the last leaky seal debacle, but in an attempt to get to clean braking surface he had ground down the surface (there are visible grinding marks across the surface of the braking material 90 degrees to the rotation).  Apparently the one set of shoes was too badly contaminated, and bled grease out as there is no other sign of seepage inside the drum.  Even this wouldn't be such a bother except no auto parts place around here (at least those open on Sunday) carries brake shoes for an old Beetle any more.  I think I could have he car back on the road (sans e-brake) in an hour or so, but now I have to order parts.  This sucks because it is absolutely top-down weather here right now.  We will see near 80 degrees today.

 

Have I mentioned how much I hate working on the rear brakes?  !@%$!!!!  

Wish I lived next door to ya, Lane. I'd give you my spare shoes.

+1 for me too. 

I find disc brakes so much easier to work on.

 

Lane, maybe it's time to visit this site: 

 

http://www.cbperformance.com/S...p;show=15&page=1

X3 on drums. Even a retro-grouch like me has zero use for 'em. You are a patient man, Lane, but why fight it? Buy the discs.

I still want the disks, but they are not going to happen prior to Carlisle because of:

1. Budget.  Not only am I trying to be frugal, I may be replacing wheels and/or tires in the near future.
2. The need to either modify or replace my exhaust system so that the muffler clears the right caliper.  I need at least 1" clearance for heat reasons.  Not yet sure how to do that.

 

Crap, crap, CRAP!

 

The car has been sitting with it's hind end on jack stands and the drums removed while I await my new brake parts from CB Perf.  (Hint: Never, ever pay extra for UPS Ground.  It's costing me $18 extra on a $35 order for what I though was speedier shipping.  It took 2 days for them to ship the order, and they are saying delivery is scheduled for the 27th. I think the free shipping would have been faster.)  Be that as it may, several days with the drum off has produced a visibly slick of axle grease under the right drum, meaning that the seal is leaking yet again.  I take back what I said about my mechanic using contaminated shoes.  Is this to be expected, or should I fix the seal for the 3rd time?  I am not happy.  What the hell is the secret to doing this so that it is actually leak free?

 

All of this started when I attempted to go to disk brakes, but ultimately had to switch back to drums as the disks conflicted with the Sidewinder muffler.  I suppose I could have cut and re-welded the muffler, but I was running out of time before last year's (or was it 2011's?) Carlisle trip.  Since re-installing the drums I have been fighting these leaks continually.

 

I really, really, REALLY hate fixing problems multiple times.

Lane, I am TRULY bummed for you even though you don't like me.

You DO know I was kidding, right?

Of course :-)

Lane.....    I've noted this several times on this site....  Always give the bearing spacer ( the seals inner wear contact area ) a VERY close inspection...  I chased a leak which was caused by what appeared to be a "hammer" ding....  Nothing severe, just enough to see when held up to the light in the correct position....     There is no way for you to true up this surface at

home....  A machine shop will cost more than new parts from C.B. Perf.....

 

A contact surface which has not been properly smoothed will leak also...( heavy machining marks. )   You have a 2 in 10 chance of polishing it up by hand....

 

Give me a call or Dialog for a walk through....  

You know that one of my criteria for choosing Special Edition, in the first place, was proximity.  That has paid dividends far more than I ever could have imagined. It's actually cheaper to drive to Indiana and take the train back and forth than it is to store it locally.  Plus, and a big plus that it is, I can get whatever work done while it's there during the winter by the experts.  Of course, I would rather live further south where I didn't need to store it for 5 months.  Hopefully, I'll get it perfected before moving south :-)

Lane:  Kinda reminds me of Einstein's definition of:

 

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." 

If you continue to get a leak after three tries, then something is in there causing it that you haven't yet found - those things are pretty simple, BUT they don't tolerate contamination well.

If you and Leon get stymied, then give my cell a call and I'll try to help, too.

Lane,

 

The pressure of your drums in place and torqued IS a big part of what keeps them from leaking, so if it is leaking because the drum is off or not torqued, that is to be expected. 

That doesn't account for the wet shoes, but for that I'd say start with a good physical inspection, look at o-rings, look at the slinger, look at the spacers and washers for wear or nicks or groves, make sure the drain passage is at the bottom and make sure it is NOT clogged, make sure the bearing cap is not worn or cut...  It has to be one of the above...  Most common one we see is the drain and the hole in the gasket not aligned or the drain on top... doesn't work that way...

Thanks, guys.  Since the paper gasket is not leaking, and the amount is small, I am not going to remove the end cap this time and I will follow Carey's advice to see if I can get away without changing seal/O-ring/gasket.  I really don't want to open that can of worms as the last time I did it, the shoes were immediately ruined.  Fingers crossed.

 

Carey - Did Kevin mention my question about the e-brake cables?  Something has to have gone awry with them as they were fine in the beginning.  What should I look for?  Is there any way to lengthen them if I have to?

He just did.  I can only think of a few possibilities... the cables have been twisted and are in effect shorter, although I think that is unlikely. Maybe the e-brake push bar was not reinstalled correctly, maybe it has jumped down out of its notch?  Next time you have the drum in your hand, use that sweet ass camera of yours and snap me some high res pics of the rear drum innards (wheel cylinders, push bars, cable end, etc...) and e-mails them to me... maybe I'll see something

Roger that.  I'll take some pick this weekend.

Brake cable tube busted loose, shifted and jammed somehow in the tunnel?

 

Nah. But I post anyway thinking there's no harm in throwing it out there.

I'm with Carey on this - the spreader bar has slipped down and is pushing the actuator lever to the rear and it wants more cable.  This usually also causes the front shoe to drag (all sound familiar?)  In the good old days, there were spreader bars for left and right, but they were a skosh different and only fit properly on their respective side.  Then, someone found out that you could use a pair of lefts for both sides and they were "OK".  This is true, but they're only OK.  If I could ever find a correct right side one, I preferred to use that, but you now only find them in old junkyards.  If the drum is off, re-seat the spreader bar into the slots made for it and your actuator arm should move inward toward the axle and give you more cable at the lever.  You may have installed the bars wrong and that's why they slipped.  They're easy to screw up and the service manuals don't really give a good picture of their orientation.

 

BTW: Often, if you have the drum off and there is no torque on the axle nut, then the axle seals sometimes can leak.  I usually jack up the side I'm working on enough so the axle tube is headed downhill toward the Tranny to prevent any leaking until I get it all back together.  Of course, if you have an IRS rear, then all this is moot.

Here are some pics.  Didn't see anything obvious about the e-brake, but the leak is pretty clearly coming from around the axle itself via the splines.  Is it a crazy idea to use some sealer of some sort in there?

Well, OK, so the spreader bar looks like it's in the right spot and cannot slip down because of the clip holding it to the return spring, so I'm stumped.  I'll ask the swing arm guys take this one.

 

The small o-ring may be leaking at the axle, but I'm still inclined to think that it's doing so just because the drum is not on and the hub nut torqued on properly.  How much do you think you torque the hub nuts to??   250 ft. lbs.?  You might check the outer spacer to see if there are any burrs on it where it meets the small o-ring and make sure the small o-ring looks OK but the large o-ring and paper cover gasket look OK as well as the outer seal (since the oil is coming from close to the axle, not out where the large seal is).

 

One last thing.....did you ever group parts when you were working on your brakes or seals in the past and maybe flipped the e-brake spreader bars from side-to-side without knowing?  I know they're supposed to be the same, now, but in the old days, they weren't and they, just may, be side specific.  In the top pictures, it looks like the actuator lever is way off to the right, when I expected it to be a little more centered.  Not a lot, but a little movement there is a big deal.

Never grouped them that I recall, but I will check.  Really hoping not to have to remove the plate on the axle as that would mean replacing the gasket (and O-ring?).  I guess I'm leery of opening it up as the last time I attempted to fix it I failed miserably and had to take it to my mechanic.  As you can see, even he wasn't totally successful.

Lane,

 

Unfortunately it all looks correct as far as I can tell.  The only thing I can see that I question is your spring looks fairly compressed to start, so make sure it isn't bottoming out

 

When you have time try 2 things: disconnect the e-brake cable from the e-brake lever inside the drum, with everything else attached, and gently pull the e-brake lever inside the car to see if you still only get 1-2 clicks.  If you only get a click, then you know the issue is in the cable itself, or the spring at the end of the cable.  If you get a full pull on the e-brake lever, reconnect everything and pull with the drum off. Be careful since the drum isn't there to stop the shoes.  Just going to have to go through a process of elimination...

 

We can make what you have work, but there isn't any reason it shouldn't go back together and work like it should...  unless the drums are just waaaay worn out and you are at the limit of the e-brake to start, or the shoes are wrong (too large) and all the way adjusted out is only a click away from engaged.

 

Anyway, IF it comes down to it, you can notch the spreader bar deeper, and then you MAY have to shorten the spring again, but that would buy some length.  Again, I don't see why you'd have to do that to make it work again, other then the possibilities mentioned...  a lil stumped.

 

re: sealer.  I am one that is against sealers in most instances, BUT even Rancho has been using RTV on the paper gaskets in our new gearboxes.

Hello Lane, in the first two pics your adjuster is adjusted out more than the other on that forward shoe.The drum is round therefor the points of contact on the shoes should be equidistant, if one shoe grabs before the other it will cause the other shoe to roll up on the holding springs.This is noticeable sometimes when when you set the parking brake and then release it, back up and it bangs or feels like its hanging and then releases.

Michael

I appreciate all of the feedback folks.  This one has been biting me for a couple of years now, and I'm a bit frustrated.  I have ordered brake shoes from CB Perf. for a '68 as one vendor lists the ones for a '67 at 30mm in width, and mine are 40mm.  I am not sure that '68 is correct for my car.  Carey, do you know what Rancho cooked up when we ordered the transaxle and brakes?

 

UPDATE:  Just verified that the e-brake spreader plates are the same on each side.  You flip it over.   Seems kinda unlike the Germans to me as it has a depression that the return spring fits neatly into on one side, but the spring has to sit on a raised portion on the other.  Anyway, it looks like they only fit in one way because of the notches that locate it to the shoes and allow for the actuator movement.  Hmmm...

'68 and up should be 40mm wide.  Unfortunately they change regularly Lane.  Sometimes early drums, sometimes later drums with the long spline center machined down, and it is even worse for wide five drums...

Yet another reason to go disk.

UPDATE:  All back together and brakes seem strong and even.  Hopefully the leak has been fixed as well.  Still haven't reconnected the e-brake at the level.  It still looks about 1" too short.  Unless I put some vice grips on and pull, I can't get enough threads top put the nut on.  That seems to make them drag.  Ideas?

Longer e-brake cables? When your car was built, maybe they were shortened too much? Al

When I first got the car, the e-brakes seemed normal.  AT one point I had my local ACVW mechanic friend (now semi-retired) adjust the rear brakes and the e-brakes have been odd ever since.  When I had everything apart recently I looked the cables over end to end and saw nothing that would explain the situation.

When you first got the car, YOU seemed normal.

 

Just look at you now.........

... as can be said of any of us. I used to have some spare change for stuff other than this...

FWIW: I do not have an e-brake.  When I park the car, I put it in 1st gear, and it stays put.  That said, I did have a hydraulic parking brake installed (I forget what those are called just now), and it does work.  I rarely use it, even so.  All it does is lock the hydraulic pressure in the rear brake circuit with a valve that you set by hand after you put pressure on the pedal.  To release, you put pressure on the pedal again, and pull the valve off.  Easy to install, hides behind the driver's seat, and works peachy.  Also gets rid of the P-brake handle and clap-trap in the cockpit.  What it is NOT is an independent (i.e., does not provide mechanical redundancy) of the principle braking system.  That is, if you have a hydraulic failure, this will not serve to add braking to the car like a cable/lever system would.  Such redundancy may be important to you for safety reasons.  Me, not so much . . .

 

Main point being: you can motor along quite well w/out the e-brake cable attached, seems to me, so there will be no reason for you to bail on Carlisle if push gets past shove, and this e-brake hang-up thing drags on  -- pun intended.  So long as the main brake system stops the car more or less straight, you are good to go -- and stop.

 

PS: I have disk brakes AND a sidewinder -- I'll bet you could too.

Kelly...yer killin' me. Redundancy not important to a rocket scientist ? Hmmm..

I know what you mean about those nifty little hydraulic valves. Got one in my airplane. Looking fwd to seeing you again.

Brakes are important in an airplane.....right?

 

I'm jus sayin.........  

 

Lane:  That hydraulic brake lock might be just the ticket for ya.  You don't have a vehicle inspection there.......take advantage of it.  It might be the best you get if that idiot, Sanford, comes back.