Update on Joel Roth's Beck Super Coupe

Joel’s car is definitely going to be a beast. And with the rear engine he will have considerable interior volume. My current Spyder is a beast with its 180-200 hp (who knows) Subaru engine. My first Spyder had a type 1 out back and it sure was nice to be able to put a six pack in the frunk. Not possible in the Subaru Spyder with that big radiator in the front. One of the main reasons I went with a type 4 in my Conv D build is the storage volume in the car. Usable frunk. Rear engine with voluminous interior volume. The Subaru and water cooled Porsche engines obviously add lots of advantages but they require a larger amount of plumbing and space in the car. Think I’m going to like the type 4. And if I want the hair on the back of my head to stand up I’ll hop in the Spyder.

@James posted:

With all the talk about stuffing larger tires into the fender wells, my engineering brain always wrestles with the fact that friction is not dependent on surface area but dragsters always have wide tires.

Wide tires with no tread whatsoever.  100% surface contact.

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@James posted:

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...my engineering brain always wrestles with the fact that friction is not dependent on surface area but dragsters always have wide tires...

As in most things, there's the world of the Physics textbook and there's the real world.

Real tires on a real car going down a real road is a much more complicated thing than the idealized frictional 'surface' in the texts - and not something I claim to understand very well.

I do know that racing cars (and even some street cars) routinely generate more than the theoretical max grip of 1 g  the books talk about.

A sticky tire sorta 'hooks up' with irregular paving, and how much can depend on lots of stuff, including the temperature of the rubber compound, which in turn will depend on how the tread is loaded, which can depend on the car's weight, suspension geometry, size of the contact patch, and so on and so on.

For a reliable explanation, I would look to a racing crew chief long before asking an engineer or, heaven help us, a Physicist.

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@Joel Roth Here’s a couple widened coupe’s Rafa did

I will try this again

I am thinking of selling my GT body before I get any further and getting one of these widebody coupe’s

Finish it, Arden. Once you're done, if you still want to sell, it'll be worth 4x what it is right now.

@Lane Anderson posted:

Even I, with my superb self control, have succumbed to the desire for some "wanton hooliganism" with my measly 180hp.  It's kinda addictive.  I also learned how easy it is to hit the rev limiter in 1st (and 2nd).

I'll see your superbly self-controlled hooliganism and raise you a hick-town, white-trash powerslide.

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I know just what you folks mean.

Hauling up to a light against those Hellcats and 5-liter Mustangs, it's all I can do to keep from unleashing all 120 horsepower in a glorious cloud of smoke and noise.

But I am master of my domain.

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@Stan Galat posted:

I'll see your superbly self-controlled hooliganism and raise you a hick-town, white-trash powerslide.

I chat up every cop that comes in the shop. There are a few that know me by name now and what I drive.

There is a new one that drives a maroon unmarked Challenger that's been haunting a piece of road that I drive daily. I need to meet him, but not in a blue-light-special kinda way.

@Stan Galat posted:

I'll see your superbly self-controlled hooliganism and raise you a hick-town, white-trash powerslide.

Don't forget with exhaust bypass WIDE OPEN!

I just call it 10/10ths when at the limit. Sometimes we get crazy and turn it up to 11 though.

My real hooliganism is revving it up to 4500 rpm and dumping the clutch, leaving two even stripes for as long as I'd care to, bumping repeatedly into the 6500 spark cut.

@Sacto Mitch Formula Vees with their smashing 58-60 hp and all-up weight of 1025 pounds routinely pull 1.5 to 1.7g on 5 to 5.5" wide slicks. Believe it or not, next year is the 60th Anniversary of the class.

I know Carlos posted this before, but it's appropriate:

"@Stan Galat"

@Stan Galat

Can't give you more than one like on this one as we need a software upgrade

As to the IM-6 even the thickness of the square tube is increased so it is one of the most stable creations with a full 911 front and rear suspension and has the bigger trunk due to the new gas tank design.

Finally, I know of one IM unfortunately that flipped when the driver lost control in the rain and hit the curb and rolled or flipped.  It has an Audi 4cyl turbo boosted to 350hp.  

My IM had the VW /Audi straight 4 mounted just like the Audi turbo 4. Engine was mounted very high creating a high center of gravity. I can see why that car could flip.

Well, he is back on the road with the very same car.  I don't think it was the engine arrangement that caused the flip.  The road was very slippery, and he was going a little too fast...I guess 350 hp might do that.

didnt know how to drive a rear engine car,,u dont hit the brakes U accelerate out of a slide

Yes he is back on the road and with a roll bar this time. It was a real blessing that he did not get hurt in the roll over.  It wasn't the size of the engine that did it, but I believe the engine power contributed to him losing rear traction and started the pendulum swigging as the rain reduced the traction he had on the road.  He then hit  the curb with the right front wheel and the car rolled over. BTW he broke the A-Arm.

I am not sure how much the engine being a few inches higher contributed to the flip.

That engine is very heavy. I tried some spirited driving in the mountains only once in that car. Switched ends immediately. I hate looking straight back where I just came from. It was one of the things that sealed the deal for me and made me trade it in for another Spyder. My IM also had narrow rubber in the back that didn’t help. Before traction control the only thing Porsche could do to keep the 911 from switching ends was to put more rubber in the back. Obviously the Spyder is much more balanced and the limit for switching ends is much higher.

But remember Phil, the Spyder is almost impossible to catch when it does go(above 50). Low polar moment of inertia.

When you're screwing around in second gear, it's easy to provoke a slide and catch it.

The Cayman is the same way. I run that in autocross with traction control off, allowing me to squirt around the cones. The key to not swapping ends is SMOOTH, and not asking too much of the tires at any given time.

Rear engine cars merely give an earlier and much louder warning.

Interesting and scary Phil, that experience certainly was a wake up call to the dynamics of that engine drivetrain combo.  I never liked the audi engine offering from IM.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Interesting and scary Phil, that experience certainly was a wake up call to the dynamics of that engine drivetrain combo.  I never liked the audi engine offering from IM.

Which is why it was only offered to a couple of clients.

Now, can we get back to arguing about Joel's coupe?

Yes Danny I know. The limit in the Spyder and also the Cayman is much higher. And when it lets go it may not just be the rear tires it may be all 4 tires. I owned the first Boxster S ever back in maybe 2001. That car was glued to the pavement. As hard as I tried I could never get that car to let loose. Incredible. Maybe I didn’t try hard enough.

Latest Update from Carey:

They finished fabricating the exhaust. It is all fabricated and tacked together, including the body cut-out for the twin center mounted exhaust tips. They used a twin tip from Fabspeed and shortened/modified it to fit. It looks great. Now they will fabricate the heat shields and then pull the exhaust, do the final welds and then ship it out to be powder coated.

@Alan Merklin posted:

Years ago I bought a speedster out of Texas with a high output Type one engine that cost $14k alone and well in excess of 225 hp ( Nikasil's etc)  Stan was drooling for that engine..... When I finished the speedster is was insanely over powered, fun for the first day but for continual use  it would be work to drive ....Sure well like to get crazy fast now and then but at the end of the day we all want to come home.  BTW  a 2,000 speedster with 300 HP is a whopping 6.67 power to weight ratio ! Just my .02.

And I’ll toss my 2¢ in, too. A lot of guys I grew up with went into construction or computers. A few made a lot of money. I run into 2-3 of them occasionally at car shows. To a man, they all regret buying 427 Cobra replicas. (Kirkham Motorsports is here, a well known loval family) Mostly KMSes, but a few Factory Fives show up at the Ford show.

Too much power, tricky handling, make it a not so pleasant toy. One told me the only time he drove his was to a show and back.

Whatever you end up with Joel, I hope you love it. I’m sure Carey will make sure it’s a hell of a nice vehicle.

Pretty cool!

Hmmm...  The exhaust treatment looks similar to another one I've seen.  

One thing I learned driving mine to Carlisle was that you will appreciate the extra room you have in the rear-engine configuration.  I'm looking forward to seeing the final product.

Thanks. Looking forward to getting the final product hopefully someday sooner than later.

Nicely done for Carey and his team.   It is shaping up very nicely Joël.  What a nice project, enjoy the ride of building it.  

Wait to you guys see this.

I have a friend who lives in Brazil who is a Graphic Artist. He works for a car company doing Computer Generated Images (CGI). I gave him some pictures of my car and a list of the different components and specifications we are considering using on my car. He then created CGI images of what my car would look like. These are CGI images not pictures.

I asked him to do this to help me make decisions on the different components we are considering and to be able to visualize what the car could look like. Take a look and let me know what you guys think.

Joel

@Joel Roth wow!...what's not to like?...except for the fact that car is going to make ALL our cars obsolete!!....   but it's going to be a show stopper and absolute replica eye candy!...i'm already insanely  jealous

I love everything except for the rear spoiler.  Seems to break up the flow of the car, at least to my eye.  

Very nice, Joel. You should turn Carey and Greg on to your friend. A service like that would be invaluable to those in the “decisions, decisions” part of the build process.

When I did my Monster, the painter did a Photoshop for me that was pretty close, but nothing as nice as you CGIs. Little matter as I’d pretty much decided on the details prior.

Most of my decisions were dictated by the original single cylinder scramblers from BITD.

Beautiful but not a fan of that particular spoiler either. It does look good from the rear but not otherwise; one man's opinion

Thanks for the comments.

I think a Spoiler looks good on the car, but I do think the one he used is a little to big/long. I think it needs to be shortened a little.  I think if it were a little shorter and more subtle I think it would look great.

Joel

Good God yes!  Love it.  I’m not a spoiler fan at all, but certain angles work.  Some don’t.

Will you be able to get away with this stance?  I sure hope so, it sells it.

Spoiler and square back is not my favourite but it does look Emory outlaw ish

i'm absolutely OK with the spoiler...on that BEAST of a car that it's going to be...it's most likely going to be functionable    vroom vroom!

You know I did not really notice the "square back" on the bottom of the rear bumper area until you mentioned it. I don't think that will be part of the build. It will be "normal" rounded.

Dump the spoiler.  I can't see you needing it.

I don't have one on my IM6 speedster (approx. 300 h.p.), and it doesn't add to the looks of the car.

Other than that, it all looks good.

For me…this is the most beautiful car I have ever seen. And if you can reproduce the “duckbill” I think it would be awesome. I’d never try it on my Conv D but Joel I think your car could pull it off. It’s a replica. Who cares if you mesh 356 and the best 911 ever created…the 1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RSR  

And you know Joel with all that weight you are going to have hanging out in the rear you are going to need all the down force you can get. I think I’d look at it as a aerodynamic necessity. Go for it!!!