Update on Joel Roth's Beck Super Coupe

@dlearl476 posted:

It’s a show car. Go to a Hot Rod show. They’re all like that. (Well, the ones that aren’t rat rods anyway)

At some point when I wasn't looking, the meaning of "show cars" morphed from "Pebble Beach" and into "SEMA".

I'm not a huge fan of either, but the SEMA sensibility of ridiculous, over-the-top, "Ed Roth Rat Fink"-style cars pretty much repels me on every level.

When it's a sports-car that's been SEMA-pimped, it looks doubly stupid.

FWIW, a "show car" in most of the country means something different than this. It means old guys sitting in lawn chairs next to pre-1973 (generally pre-1955) American iron. It means 23 coats of candy-apple red applied in 1978 and waxed and rubbed every other Saturday in the summer since. It means blown big-blocks and tubbed rear-ends with American Racing mags. It's the sum of 40-odd years of some forklift driver or factory line worker or street sweeper's nights, weekends, and Christmas bonus'.

Real car-shows are really not my jam, but they're earnest and honest. Stuff like this always looks to me like the intent was to sell something by spraying the entire car with a money gun.

Whatever it is, I'm not buying.

@dlearl476 posted:

Show Car. Never intended to be driven on the street.

This illustrates my point, PERFECTLY. TACKY!

You can call it "bling". You can call it "workmanship". You can call it "bespoke".

I'm not buying. It looks like someone with more(lots more) money than sense was at the helm. Sorry, not sorry.

This is the perfect example of "more is NOT always more".

The most beautiful street rod I've ever laid eyes on was at the old NY Coliseum around 1969.  Oddly it was a correct shade of pink 32 Deuce Coupe with all the stainless, chrome and wheels done in copper.  Hence "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" Talking to the blonde girl that owned it, the car was an inspiration from a fiction based book " Street Rod" by Henry Felson.  Funny how things do align as  I ended up reading that book and was the inspiration of my car building addiction. 

I have to admit, I went a little tacky after seeing that car. Oh well I still like it. For now!

Big Tent. It's round so nobody has to argue their way out of a corner, and there are numerous entrances and exits. Great hobby.

As we all agree, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That is why all of our cars are different in different ways. We personalize them to meet our tastes and sometime our budget. We pick different body styles: Coupe, Convertible, Speedster, Spyder, A, B or C or Pre-A. Different colors, shades of color, wheels, engines, interiors. You get the picture.

What we simply have to do is appreciate the differences and the workmanship. Everyone has their own vision.   

with a little time & effort...along with a few well spent $$$...we all can have a "SHOW CAR" that can also be a daily driver if you so chose....just IMHO

jncspyder:

Nice. What size wheels and tires are you running?

@Joel Roth these wheels are knock off FUCHS 15"...not exactly sure how wide   6" ?....the guys would know...tire size is 195/65R15....all i know these were biggest wheels/tires that would fit

I can't remember if I posted this before, but I found it helpful in my decision making process: https://www.gearpatrol.com/car...ng-blue-porsche-911/

@jncspyder  Very nice, which maker is it?  BTW you'll have to change to @jnccoupe

@DannyP posted:

This illustrates my point, PERFECTLY. TACKY!

You can call it "bling". You can call it "workmanship". You can call it "bespoke".

I'm not buying. It looks like someone with more(lots more) money than sense was at the helm. Sorry, not sorry.

This is the perfect example of "more is NOT always more".

LOL. Yeah, not my cup of tea, either, although I have to admit, a couple of cars in James Hetfield collection I saw at the Petersen Museum were pretty nice. But they were also very tastefully done. A Jag mk IX (?) and another one I can’t remember. They were reminiscent of Delahayes and Auburns.

IMHO, that coupe in in the same class as the show hot rods . It’s a garish, overdone garage queen.

@IaM-Ray my car is a 2018'ish JPS car.....it is much better now than when delivered...but that's a whole 'nother OPRAH  and i think my name has stuck to long to change

"Show Car" can mean a lot of things. I agree with Stan's parameters in general but he's leaving out a lot of sub and sub-sub cultural trends. You know, the "stance" guys with the leaned-out Hondas and 'Yotas. The would-be "drifters." The Low Riders. There's a whole world of truck dudes out there, mostly doing stuff I'd find pointless, if not offensive. The HAMB guys' efforts almost always make me smile. Plus there are still Bubble and Box aficionados out there...somewhere. Kit car/replica guys are but one tiny pimple on the Car Guy Planet, and even among our kind there are differences in style and substance.

My issue with the SEMA aesthetic is not merely that it's tasteless money-gunnery (and kudos to @Stan Galat for coining a great phrase). It's that the cars' function is almost always forgotten. Those things—supposed "works of art"—are not only incapable of being driven on the road. Most of them would burst into flames if you attempted to start them.

At some point it ceases to be awe-inspiring or even amusing, and it becomes just...sad.

It's not even new though. The story is told about Ed Roth's Mysterion, the famous, twin-engined, Bill-the-Cat-eyed hot rod that launched a million kids' Kandy-Koated dreams, that it was was so poorly engineered and constructed that its frame cracked constantly just from travel on the trailer.

A modern replica uses a hollowed-out engine on one side to save weight.

Sound fun? Not to me. I rather have something like Stan, or Danny P, would build—close to the bleeding edge of functional performance.

—or something like I would build: with perhaps lesser acceleration but more reliability, and looks to match, as far as possible, what is being aped.

But that's just me, and that's just now. Tastes change. Who's to say in a year or two I won't be on to something radically different? The SEMA people, and all the other flavors of our flavor, keep spinning wheels and rolling fuzzy dice that the rest of us might find some inspiration.

And I like that.

@jncspyder posted:

@IaM-Ray my car is a 2018'ish JPS car.....it is much better now than when delivered...but that's a whole 'nother OPRAH  and i think my name has stuck to long to change

nother Oprah, isn't that the truth. : ))

Well, I heard from Carey the other day. He told me they just finished up building frame numbers 11 and 12 and will start on 13 and 14 after the new year. I am number 14.

He also told me they completed the 1st rear engine Super Coupe (with a Subaru motor), and it is currently being tested.

He also told me they acquired the Porsche 911 motor for my car from a donor 996 they bought. They will be removing it from the donor car and sending it out for rebuilding shortly. 

Project 911 Super Coupe is officially starting.

Joel

Now the fun begins, Joel.  You'll find time moves very slowly from here on.   Ask me how I know.

WooHoo!

@Lane Anderson posted:

Now the fun begins, Joel.  You'll find time moves very slowly from here on.   Ask me how I know.

When I was dealing with Italian motorcycle maker CR&S the owner told me “there’s two stages to this project: first we figure out how to build the bike, then we have to figure out how we’re going to produce it.”

I figure your SC was probably the middle step between the two. Hopefully, the future builds will be streamlined.

That's pretty accurate, @dlearl476.  I know some small changes are still being made, but they've got the hang of it.

@Lane Anderson posted:

Now the fun begins, Joel.  You'll find time moves very slowly from here on.   Ask me how I know.

Really…Time will go slower 😬😬😬 the closer to build start date?

im late to the party as always, but also knew I didn’t have time to do a new build on my own. My wife, also knew this very well and said to order a turn key car.  I was able to choose where to get it from and thought Carey would be the best product. It’s really her car anyway, and she knows my project tend to stretch out longer than expected and wants to enjoy the car.

but, back on topic a bit.  We met some friends a few weeks ago across town for a little car show. I got roped into judging (😡!*#!😡), everything from a WWII Ford Jeep to new, drive-it-off-the-lot rides. Funny thing is, based on the club’s score sheet, the Jeep and a baby blue ‘66, 6 cylinder Mustang were the winners in my group. And, yes, there were a lot of way too much (fill-in the blank) rides as well.

Carey and his crew have a lot of experience building these types of cars. While the SC design and build may be different than another car they are building and/or have built, the process and the components are very similar. Moving the engine to the rear is nothing new for them. Most of the cars they build are rear engine. Using a 911 motor is nothing new for them.  Building a water-cooled car is nothing new for them. Putting this all together in their SC is the only thing new. Given their level of experience and attention to detail, I have every confidence that the end result will be mechanically excellent and aesthetically beautiful. And when I get it, I will be very happy.

Lane, what is the process from this point moving forward. Does Carey have a sit down/zoom meeting to go over all the specific details for your car, and choices? Or is it done on the fly, when he gets to each point where a choice needs to be made it is discussed?

Joel

Well said.

The process for a custom build like this is a bit different than our "normal" process.  In this case we'll build the body/chassis like normal, but when it comes out of the mold we'll move it over to assembly instead of into my body shop.  This way we can dive into drivetrain and suspension fitment.  This allows us the most flexibility to make changes and fabricate without having to move backwards anywhere.  In addition, for this particular build, there are some unknowns that will effect other choices in the build, such as suspension/brakes will dictate wheel options to an extent.  Once all of that is done we'll disassemble, send components off to their respective rebuilders, and the body/chassis back to the body shop boys.

As for the "normal" process, some guys like to lay it all out in the beginning, others like to make the minimum required decisions up front and then once it is closer make the final decisions.  I do this via phone, e-mail, zoom or in person.

Yeah, what he said.

Carey and I exchanged innumerable phone calls and emails while making the design decisions.  A couple fo times when we weren't entirely sure how to do something he said something on the order of "Do you trust me?"  Both instances (head rests and exhaust system with trim) turned out very well.

@chines1

I was kind-of wondering how you managed the early builds, too.  I come from the computer world, but we had similar prototype, pre-production, early production and final production phases, each very different from the others, but our mechanical process was quite similar to yours, even though the production volumes were higher.

We found that we had to be careful ramping our supplier shops to maintain quality and delivery times as we dramatically ramped up from prototype to production volumes.  Some smaller shops don't want to go beyond a certain volume so we developed several suppliers for much of the product and shared fab info between them.   That way, we didn't kill any mom and pop shops and could throw bonuses at them for speedy delivery or for working with the larger production shops.

I'll admit, that we burned our share of smaller shops with too-short turn-around times or ramping their volumes too fast, but we learned how to manage a wider field of suppliers while keeping them all happy.  It's a shared learning process, for sure.

And Happy Holidays, Carey!

Carey and Joel. Has a decision been made on the rear suspension?  I know Carey mentioned they may be using the stock rear 911 suspension. Or is that decision made after frame build?

@550 Phil not yet.  The plan was always to use a modified version of our stock suspension and then I threw out the "what if"...  I assisted a shop with fitting 993 suspension into an original coupe which made me think....  ;-)

I’m thinking 911 suspension but like Lane said you’re the man. This will be exciting.

I do like the 911 suspension in my car.  Really keeps the car planted, and no issues with tail swing on curves, but I know Henry did a lot of work to make the chassis ready for it.

Compared to a beam suspension, my full 911 front end, A arm suspension, R&P, brakes and sway bars is absolutely a different car!

I love the front end on it and the Type 1 rear with sways works well with it.  

Bob's has the full 911 rear trailing arms.

While the helm joints in the Beck suspension may be a wee bit noisy, there is no denying how well it handles.  I ran an errand in the car this morning and was reminded just how well it sticks - flat and maybe just the tiniest bit of roll.  I can't wait to get it up to the mountains or on a track.

@dlearl476 posted:

When I was dealing with Italian motorcycle maker CR&S the owner told me “there’s two stages to this project: first we figure out how to build the bike, then we have to figure out how we’re going to produce it.”

Ah, yes. I delt with Ducati NCR parts and also with several Italian bicycle manufacturers when I sold them. I discovered that when they said "backorder" the words they spoke actually meant "we have planted the trees that will become your shipping crates."

Fortunately not applicable here.

@Lane Anderson that's it...just keep  rubbin' it in how that SUPER COUPE has made our cars obsolete!!    just joshin' ....i'm soooo totally jealous!!...but a good kind of jealous......enjoy the hell out of that incredible man toy!!

Who meeeee?

Ok, to make you all feel a little better, I do occasionally miss being able to put the top down.  One of these with a rag top (this means you, @550 Phil) would be spectacular.

Don’t think that Carey is ready to chop the top off of a SC. The more I think of it I doubt I’ll hold out for the 911 SC. A Conv D with removable hard top is so much more practical. It’s one of the things I really loved about my Intermeccanica. And the more research I do the more I think I can get outstanding performance out of a 4 cylinder if done right. Outfront is building the 200+ hp stroker 2.6L Subaru.  I’m also now thinking about doing a large displacement Type 4. I emailed Pat Downs about the possibilities.  I’m sure that 200 hp from a large displacement Type 4 is possible.  If I used a Type 4 Carey told me that he can build a 915 5-speed for it. I do think that the 911 SC is the ultimate performance 356 replica. But a 200+ hp Conv D with removable hard top just clicks a few more boxes for me.

Actually the D with removable top is what I was thinking of.  The front suspension is the same and I'm sure the rear will be well done also.

Latest update from Carey:

As you know, I previously posted that Special Editions received my chassis. Carey was intending to fabricate the motor mounts and then do some measurements and mock-ups for possible use of the Porsche 911 suspension and brakes.

He was going to try and use another Coupe body to do this because mine was not done yet. It turned out he could not use another Coupe body for the measurements and mock-up's because of the unique features of my car. Because of my use of a Porsche 911 engine and transmission in the rear location, apparently, the standard engine cradle top braces are in the way and have to be relocated. Carey did not want to cut or alter the other car's engine cradle to be able to use it for my mock-up. So, we had to wait for my body to be done to do this.

Carey just finished my body and they are now bonding my chassis to the body. They will then be able to do the mock-ups for the drive train pre-fitment (engine and transmission) as well as the measurements for the suspension and brakes. Once this is done, my motor will be sent to LN for rebuilding.

Carey also told me that they will flare the rear of the body 2" with pie cuts (1" per side) to fit wider wheels and tires.

R&D is so time consuming with so many unexpected hurdles. Had the first Suby Spyder ever. First payment early 2001. Received the car 2 1/2 years later. Joel if you could get your car in 2 1/2 years from order that would be pretty awesome. When did you make your first payment. April 2021?  So maybe October 2023?  I’m so glad someone is building this car. It’s going to be killer. Just glad it’s not me. Been there done that. Hey maybe I still have one more car in my future after the Conv D. Thanks for the updates. We await the coming of this car with bated breath.

I think it will be done before 2 1/2 years. I am hoping under 2 years. They have the chassis and now the body and are doing the measurements/mock-ups for the drive train fitment (engine and transmission) and the suspension, wheels, tires and brakes. These are the difficult things. Once this is done, it is really just a matter of getting all the parts and putting it all together and finishing it. I know there are other things to be done along the way, and that there will be periods of down time, but how long can this really take? How hard can this really be?

My car was at the body on chassis stage when Mike Fincher picked it up in November 2019.  The car was at the 98% stage at Carlisle in 2021, about 18 months later.  That was despite being the first one built with a lot of the standard features and delays due to COVID, so I think Joel will be well within the 2 1/2 year window.

Joel you said they were going to pie cut and flare the rear fenders 2".  Since they've already done that as part of the standard build does this mean you'll have an extra 4" over the original or is this the standard set up?

I am hoping it's done in under two years. My car will be Special Edition's first 911 based water-cooled rear engine Coupe. But it is not their first Coupe, nor is it their first water-cooled rear engine Coupe. While my car will have a lot of unique features, nothing is really that crazy other than the 911 engine and transmission and maybe the 911 suspension and brakes if they can get them to fit.

I think the rear is being flared an extra 2" over standard. 1" extra on each side.

Joel