Valve Adjustment

I've always heard .006 unless chromemoly push rods or the cam came with different setting like .004.

When I started building VW engine in 1970, the original 1600cc specs called for .004 intake and .006 for exhaust.   This is all based on having stock aluminum stock pushrods. 

This puts a pickle to what my engine valves should be set. With a mild cam vs stock I need to get back asking the builder for their recommendation. Thanx to all for replying.

With aluminum pushrods and a mild cam- .006" for both intake and exhaust will work. Larry's specs will work as well.

Bluespeedster,    Cam shaft has nothing to do with this.  It's all determined via which set of pushrods you're running.  if you have stock aluminum then set the valves loose.   If you have chromoly pushrods you can set them to a loose "O" in other words, if you grab and twist the pushrod, it will freely spin

Put a small magnet on the shaft (not the tip) of one of your pushrods. If it sticks you have chromoly pushrods that should be set to "loose 0" as Larry describes. If it doesn't stick, you've got aluminum pushrods. Set those to the gaps mentioned already.

From what I've heard, VW moved from 0.004" on the intake to 0.006" in 1972 due to owners that didn't maintain their valve clearances. Extra safety margin before they would burn a valve.

"From what I've heard, VW moved from 0.004" on the intake to 0.006" in 1972 due to owners that didn't maintain their valve clearances. Extra safety margin before they would burn a valve."

Very true.  I was told a long time ago that this was because "American buyers don't take as good care of their cars as those in Germany.  German owners will have their valves set every or every other oil change just because, well.....They are GERMAN!"

"Loose zero", as Larry mentioned, you set the valve lash to zero, but you can still twist the pushrod with your fingers. There will be some slight drag, but if they are hard to turn, they are too tight and you need to back out a little.

 With a dead cold engine. Early in the morn.  I do 6 on both   And I listen to it carefully right after I crank it. IF I hear to much anywhere.. I try to figure out which one is the loudest and  Tweek him the next morning. It does happen  but not often. I'd rather have um a little lose than too tight.. I'm not to fond of burnt valves

I thought the old leaded gas lubricated the valves and when that was outlawed in gas the .004 exhaust setting was raised to .006.  Seems the calendar timing is about the same.  

VWs always had steel valve seats and hardened valve seats since '67. They weren't reliant on leaded gas.

Oldyeler,   Typically if you have aluminum pushrods you set the valves at 4 or 6 thousands, If you have chromoly pushrods set them at a loose "0"    The aluminum pushrods 'grow' with heat, the chromoly pushrods don't.    You won't burn valves if you have chromoly pushrods set to "0"     Somewhere above someone mentioned using a magnet on the pushrods to determine if you have metal or aluminum.   Check it out then adjust accordingly.    If you have chromoly, which you probably do,  .006 makes for a noisy valve train and a loss of power.

most of my cam cards state .004" for intakes and .006 for exhaust,  the engle 110 says .004 across the bord , fk8 says .006 . my cb cam cards are the .004&.006.(all with aluminum pushrods)my roller cams are way out there at .020", but I doubt any of you have them, I dont run roller cams that loose on any thing. the steel pushrods are zero...or less.

  and the method you adjust them by also makes a different ( thus the reason for some needing to be redone the next morning) I use the preload method,not the oe method witch was ment for oe cams&a fast valve adjustment & not getting them all the same but withen a few thou witch is fine for a bug under warranty or one that is wore out any way.

From longtime SAMBA VW Expert:

Lead was added to prevent "micro welding" of the valve to the valve seat.. If you notice the pitting on the valve seats on older heads, that's evidence of micro-welding. The valve is super heated and sticks to the seat, tearing away small chunks as its lifted off the seat. Lead lubricates and cools the valves. It also helps protect the guides and stems. 

When the US deleted lead out of gasoline, it made early engines wear extremely fast. Not so much in VW's, but other cars rarely got more than 30-50K miles without needing a valve job. 

Toluene, Xylene and other chemicals are used in modern fuels to raise the octane rating. Remember: The higher the octane, the harder it is to ignite the fuel. Some people think higher octane is more explosive - not so. 

E85, Gasohol, etc are extremely low octane fuel blends that should NOT be run in a stock VW engine. VW's need 87 or 89 octane (US rating) gas to run properly. (91 RON, which is equivalent to approx 88 octane US gas). The formula is; RON + MON / 2. 

When VW switched to hardened seats, the need wasn't AS great. Trust me, if you had leaded fuel available at the pump, valve jobs would last WELL beyond 50-100K miles!! The micro-weldng and lack of top-end lubrication (sacrificial metals) is killing these heads... Diesel engines are known to have long lasting valve jobs because of all the lubrication provided by the fuel, especially considering what their combustion pressures and temps are compared to gas engines.

Given that, what octane gas should I be running in my 2110cc, dual dells, chromoloy push rod engine? I have always gone with the highest octane gas I could get.

Here in the middle of the middle, the economy loves corn or soy based additives to anything.

I have never tried midgrade but I have tried 87 octane and my motor does not like it. I have a CB 2110cc with 8.5 to 1 compression.

E85 is around 105 octane. E10 is typically 91 octane.

That would depend on your static compression ratio, cam, deck height, and typical head temps. Stock engine would be fine on 87, but yours, as a wild guess probably wants 91 or better.

What is a good oil or gas additive that's available at your auto store that acts like a lead replacement?

valve tech has some excelent products,I have ysed them for 20+ years and have tested ans een what that do and they do work. but dont over dose thinking you will help things more you wont. but you will cause it to cake up on the sparking bolts&chambers.so only the recomended amount. most marine supply stores have it(west marine,etc)as does many other stores.try to stay away from the dollar store stuff & no name products as they can build up badly& may not do any good at all,I do not like lucas products I have tested and seen the build up from thier"cleaners" what a mess that was.it was a 1 year test using only thisr product, I dam neer had to throw away the intake valves that **** was caked on so thick&hard,I could not find any thing to remove it but a wire wheel or blasting, not soaking in any thing helped at all .over a 3 week peroid I tried many products, none would cut that **** or soften it at all.

  a lot of times the "microwelding" as wofgangbanger calls it can be traced to the guides,the valve job,too leen,the valves them selves,and even the seats can be the rong makeup for the application. engine temps and even detonation,detonation even killes lifters&camshafts. but yes a good product will help,I have used the valvetechled subitute to stop valve seat in it's tracks when ythe rong seats were put in the heads and not enough time to change them,.060"-.100" seat ression in 1 weekend!!! and it stoped with the first dose of the valvetech witch gave us 4 more weeks of usage till the motors could be pulled out and new seats(the correct martin wells aerospace seats) could be put in all 3 new engines.when your paying $5000 a set for finished heads you expect them to be right, somehow they got the rong seats,so that made a lot more work for me, but I did learn the valve tech does what it says it will do. they use phorpourious instead of lead, and a little go's a long way when you get the concentrated bottle.not exppensive either.(do not get it on your clothing or interior it does stain badly.red)

    I dont use any on my vw stuff, well possiably 1 time a year in 1 tankfull.my heads have about 80000 miles on them and get the valves adjusted 1 time a year and they usualy do not require any adjustment, thus the seats are just fine,but I dont do the normal valve job.and dont do the normal seat widths.I like thin seats out very neer the edge.

That sounds like a Samba "expert" for sure.

Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113. Gasoline blended with ethanol has a higher octane rating than the base gasoline alone.

The problem with ethanol is twofold: 1) Ethanol is hygroscopic. It loves water, and water loves ethanol. The net/net is that you've got to work pretty hard to keep fuel running through the system-- the fuel doesn't do very well sitting for a long time. 2) The btu rating of ethanol is only 66.67% of gasoline (gasoline has 114,000 btu/gal, ethanol has 76,100 btu/gal). This means you'll need to jet a bit fatter for E10 than you would with straight gasoline.

A higher octane rating reduces a fuel's tendency to "pre-ignite" (explode from the heat of compression, before the ignition event). If your car runs hot, higher octane is a good idea. If your compression is a bit higher than ideal, higher octane is a good idea. If your engine is a low compression, cool running machine- running high octane gas is not going to do anything for you.

I'm running 9.5:1 static, and have a cam with a good deal of overlap. I run 30 deg total timing, and have 911 piston squirters, and coated piston-tops and combustion chambers. My car runs better on E10 than on straight gas because I'm set up for it. I guarantee it'd run better yet on E15 if it ever comes along.

Bob-

Run 93. If all you can get is 91-- run it, but listen for pre-ignition. If all you can get is 89, drive to the next station.

That's what I've been doing, so no change.

 as for the low vs high octane not being needed, well that kinda depends on how you like your motor to run& respond. take for instance my wifes honda element, it is made to run on low octane 87.and it does.it also runs on 93. it dosent have **** for power with the 87 so dont pull out in traffic unliss you step on the gass befor the car gets to you that your trying to go behind. but when the 93 is used and you step on the gass them you have just spun the wheels and smacked that car. so does it need it??no, does it run better??not realy, still smooth. does it make more power and more responsive??? yup.

   I realy cant say what my bug does on 87 or even 89,I cant ever recall ever putting it in , but if I do need to I know where the dist is located if I need to adjust the timing lower.

That's a good point, if you've got to run octane that's a few points too low for your car, you can do what all modern cars do and retard the timing a few degrees to try and avoid knock. Won't always fix things, but it might get you by until you can get better gas.

I had a '71 Toyota with an 18RC engine.  On the side of the distributor was a small, calibrated knob which would, when turned, either retard or advance the spark range to compensate for varying grades of gas.  1 click per octane level.  Going from 91 to 87 Octane?  Turn left 4 clicks.  Pretty simple and worked very well.

The Japanese were unbelievably clever back in the day. That would be most excellent on my car. Full advance for days under 85 deg, 2 clicks back for 90 deg plus, and four back for cruddy gas.

 a knock sensor is a wonderfull thing, does it all by it's self.there are now fuel sensors to do it too so the engine knows what it is burning and what it needs to do for it. way back when when I was building offshore powerboat /***** boat performance engines I also was trained by yamaha& certified, they were among some of the first to use knock sensors.and they found out that a wristpin knock is the same frequency as detonation, or very close to it, that helped them in 2 ways, 1 they finetuned the knocksensors, and 2 they could now find when and why they were having wrist pin issues.(if you have a out board engine 2 stroke type, use the manufactures oil for that engine, not a generic noname brand that says it meats the nmwc or twcc specs, those dont mean squat for the enging that are epa specs witch could also probably be labeled on to water, but water wont work for oil will it, and a lot of those noname oils are pure **** for your engine, but they meat the epa specs witch all of the oil has to meet.but the oil for that make engine has the fortifications that are needed for those engines piticular issues like wrist pin issues, or piston gaulding(mercury)ring sticking(omc, jhonson,evenrude).if you cant find the mfr's oil then go with the name brand like citgo(they made the oil for mercury,yamaha,&many others in the blend that fixed&addresed that engines issues)stay away from wally world brand or uncle bubbas fishen motorlube squril piss, it may have all the certifications but it isant any good for your motor,yes in an emergency situation you may mix it or use it, but dont do it on a regular basis or you may be buying powerheads when you should be fishen.

  I use preamum fuel , I use synthetic oil,castroal,quakerstate,pensoil, valvoiline,I dont like mobil1, the faa had a reason for pulling it out of the air many years ago, they have since been reinstated&certified, but I just dont want to chance it.I also mix my oils to get what ever additives they all have to offer.kinda like a mixed drink,holy crap this is some hard stuff but when you start a mixen it go's down a lot better and faster too!! thus you get the affects faster....... or so Ive been told.....& seen.

 motors/ engines are not cheep,oil is even the $25.jug is cheep. I build engines, I do not like to rebuild engines, thus use the right parts do it right do it one time, go have fun and set a maintance schdule and always listen to your motor it will tell you if somethen is up.

one more thing bad gass.....well the only bad gass Ive seen has watter in it or other contamanits in it. low octane is not bad gass, just low octane.

 I'm not running Moly push rods. Not even in the Mileage motor  But what you said about  zero for them is correct..

I run mine near or at the ragged edge of timing, 9.8:1 compression, 32 degrees at 3000. But it retards as the revs climb which is why no detonation/pinging. Thank the wonders of crank fire ignition and electronics!. BTW, I have a second map that can be used with the flip of a toggle switch which is 2-4 degrees retarded across the board for bad gas. Never had to use it.

Danny-

The crankfire thing has always intrigued me greatly-- but I've been afraid of programming the map. It seems a lot like jetting-- there's a lot of information, but not all in one place, and the information available assumes you already know the basics. I learned how to jet because I had to, but.....

Are you using anything besides RPM to determine advance? Throttle position sensor, vacuum transducer, anything?

Inquiring minds, and all that...

TPS custom bracket on the driver's side Weber. Ford TPS. I looked at a lot of distributor maps. Mapped my 009, then went from there. Also have a bit of temperature compensation via a head temp sensor. Really flexible and pretty easy to use. Cheap too. $160 total investment. Soft and hard limiter built in. Timing is retarded 4 degrees per 1000 rpm above 5000. I have extra modules(VR sensor, coil-pack, EDIS brain, and TPS) in the car, just in case. I built the Megajolt controller, installed a map switch and the rev limiter in the unit. It has 4 outputs either rpm, temp, or throttle triggered. I use one for a crankcase evac solenoid(5k rpm), and the other three for a sequential rev limit indicator via the three red lights on the combi gauge. You can see the lights come on in your peripheral vision so you know when it's gonna hit ignition cut. 

Map is 10 by 10 for rpm and load. I mimic a vacuum dizzy curve, at light load it advances some for a bit better mileage. The flexibility of the software is pretty amazing. You can assign rpm and load bins any value, down around idle I have a few like 800, 900, 1000, then higher jump such as 3000, 4000, 6000. The software is smart as it interpolates, 32 degrees at 4000, 24 at 6000 will automatically give you 28 at 5000.

http://www.autosportlabs.net/M...ller_-_Users_Welcome! This is the general site.

http://www.autosportlabs.org/viewtopic.php?t=1753 This is my install, back in 08 with silver paint......12,700 views of my install, holy crap!

 cb perf has a new "black box" that you can customize your maps/dist curve with any dist in the motor, they just came out with it about a month ago.

 as for coping the 09 curve  thats not a good idea, the 09 curve sucks, sucks badly. but can be made a lot better with some work.

I dont think you need any retard with that low of cr unless your running some realy bad gass(low octane)& too leen. I run 30 degrees total & about 13 at idle(I would run about 32~34 total if I knew the gass was all the same but it isant.so 30 will work with 90% of the gass I get. my cr is a little higher than yours @10.4 cr,& I have no  isues with detonation/preeignition at all.and I am at sea level(on the gulf of mexiaco. at the beach) I will probably go with the cb black box on my 356 so I can fine tune it easyer or just the cb billet dist that can be adjusted easely, but a turn of a knob would be great for those times when it is needed,so that may also be a added item too.

Mark, I only used the 009 as a starting point. The car ran very well on the 009 before, but it just wasn't accurate enough for me, big time spark scatter.

Stan, if you end up doing this I'll send you my map, then you'd be pretty close to done!

That's a kind offer, Danny. From looking over your pictures, one issue leaps out right away: I'm running the dry-sump, which means I've got a much smaller than stock crank pulley. I'd need a smaller diameter trigger wheel. I would assume this is not a big issue, but how would I go about locating such a thing?

Also- the pictures of your TPS are long on detail but short on overview. Some shots of the temp sensor you referenced would be fantastic as well.

I'm running 9.6:1 compression and a .075 deck. I'd have liked to get the deck tighter, but it would've bumped my CR to somewhere near 10:1. Since I'm not running dual plugs or the nickasil cylinders any more, I was fearful-'fraid of going any higher in CR. So far, so good with a SVDA-- but I need to be careful, and I'm running less total advance than I'd like.

Generally, I'm dragged kicking and screaming into the electronic age, but I'm afraid I'm going to eventually end up with crank-fired ignition of some variety, just for the control it offers. When I do it, I'll probably go dual-plug as well.

I'm sick. Won't somebody help me help myself?

There is a site: http://trigger-wheels.com/stor...ntents/en-uk/d5.html

It is in UK, but they have pretty much anything you need. You should be able to get the trigger wheel mounted to the back side of your dry sump pulley and hide the VR sensor too. I used the Ford wheel and machined it to fit my pulley, which is a 5" dry sump to go with the 911 fan. Temp sensor is screwed into the cylinder head boss that was used on the type3. I can take an overview shot of the TPS.

The thing that got me was .1 degree accuracy per revolution, plus the nice fat 50Kv spark. "Dead-on balls accurate" from My Cousin Vinny comes to mind

I keep waiting for Megajolt 2 to come out which eliminates the Ford EDIS brain, and would allow coil on plug.

I like the dichotomy of my car, modern spark control with backasswards carbs!