Valve train noise

Chronic oil leaks are no fun. Ask me how I know.

Are you referring to lubritory incontinence or lubricous persperation?

It was a productive Sunday. I will be loading the long block up and driving it to a shop later in the week. Good advice. Some things are better left to the people with the tools (and space). Should be it for now. Thanks to everyone for there help. Lets hope i get this motor buttoned up and installed in time for Carlisle!

While things are apart, if the tranny is not a recent one, I would replace the pilot shaft seal and closely check the throw out bearing. Have your engine guy check the rear main seal too. Both are cheap and easy to replace while accessible. ~Alan

Alan,
I had the main seal at the engine and the pilot shaft seal at the transmission replaced in October at Peak Performance. It was interesting to find the oil puddled up in the transmission bell... that work was just under $600.

PS: You should not need Locktite on the hose fittings per se. Would not use it there. Now, if you have a pipe threaded nipple in a casting somewheres, well then maybe. But never the hardening kind, however. There are three kinds I think. And you want the kind that can be taken apart, if you decide you ever want/need to. I like using Teflon pipe tape myself, but you gotta be careful not to get a loose piece of that in the inside. Who is going to do the work for you? Have you consulted w/ them about how to get that broke rod out of the block? You REALLY do not want to be looking at a new block. And you now have your Red Badge of Courage in the wrenching Dept., or maybe it's just a black and oily one ;-) In any event, you are getting your initiation by fire on this little issue. Uh, Welcome to the Madness??

Pulled upper tin when I got home from the office only to find the upper stud was also broken. hmmmmm.

Now it's almost certain whoever built the motor over torqued the studs... Without question, I would replace all of the studs. ~Alan

Do you know who built the engine?

Paul, I'm in the process of having an engine built and I often lie in bed at night worrying about an early engine failure due to faulty parts. Good luck on your repairs.
Ron

Thunder Ranch said the Long Block was purchased and assembled by SCAT. After looking closer at the studs that broke I dont think they should have even been installed. It looks like the cylinder was pushing against the stud shaft. I tried to take a decent picture (see attached). Looks like it would be hard to even get the studs started. Tom said SCAT would not warrant the work. I would like to give them a call and let them know about this either way.

"Tom said SCAT would not warrant the work. I would like to give them a call and let them know about this either way."

Looks like a vendor that I'd avoid, then. Yeah, I'd definitely call them up and send some pics.

Paul, give me a call when you have a few minutes.

What does the clearance look like on the other side of this barrel and the other cylinders? I wonder if that spigot was machined off center?

What a collasal FU. So who, exactly, is putting this kind of shoddy work out as an example of their expertise, and then not standing behind it? Unbelievable.

Ok, I'm convinced. Nobody but Jake Raby, Pat Downs, or Roland Rascon(sp?) builds an engine for me.

Lane- There are others: Art Thraen, or Anibal Chico leap to mind. Builders you'd trust: they're out there, but it's like looking for a particular needle in a stack of other needles.

Even the good engine builders on rare ocassions have one that will grenade, however they make good on them...there lies the diffence.

When I originally had my IM I had a local VW drag racer build me a 2110 engine. I drove it for 150 miles and then brought it back to him for some minor adjustments. While he had it out for a test drive the engine seized. He tried to blame me, but once we took the engine apart he realized it was his fault. He ended up standing behind his work and rebuilding the engine at his expense.
As mentioned in the above post, finding a good engine builder is important, but it's also important to find a builder that stands behind his product. I've found someone else to build my new engine.

I had one engine grenade in all of my projects to date.
The builder and I stood side by side as we disassembled the engine piece by piece.... found the problem, agreed on what was the cause and most importantly, the builder made good on it. ~Alan

Speaks volumes that his knee jerk reaction was to point the finger at you, before even breaking the engine down to see what was wrong.

I had problems with a transmission in my Celica years ago. Two transmission shops told me I needed to replace the unit after listening to me explain what the symptoms were. They had a price for me within 15 minutes of walking through the door.

I took it to one gentlemen who went for a drive with me, i then let him drive the car. I was a very frustrated 20 year old when he couldn't give me a price and didn't know what was wrong. He had "ideas". Said he wanted to drop the pan, look at the oil first. A Day and a half later the car was back to me shifting like new. The bill... $68.00. Certainly a lesson learned there.

As for my car, spoke with Cory earlier over the phone. I am going to take the engine to a fella he recommends. I believe Mr. Frazer has had him do engine work before. Interested to see what his take on it all is.

Paul, I have a similar story to yours about the transmission. Back in the early/mid 80's I had an 83 Celica GTS that developed some very poor running characteristics shortly after a "tune-up" at the dealer. I took it to the other dealer in town (I'd already deternmined that the first one was crooked), who told me that all of my fuel injectors were clogged and had to be replaced at $150 each. I was about ready to sell the 2 year old car for scrap as I had many problems with it (it was my 2nd and last Toyota), but a friend pointed me to a little import repair shop. This was a nasty looking place but my buddy said they were trustworthy. I left the car with instructions just to determine what the problem was and let me know.

Later that day I called them back and was shocked when they told me that it was fixed. I had visions of $600+ worth of unauthorized repairs, but the mechanic sensed my displeasure and told me the bill was something on the order of $25. It seems whoever had serviced the car previously had installed the wrong heat range spark plugs. Needless to say, that place had my business for years, and I never went near the Toyota dealers again.

And so it goes.

BTW, who is Mr. Frazer??

Kelly

PS: I have had no engine work done on my Speedster, nor anything major on any other car of mine in a good long time, so can give no recommendations. What work that gets done (maintenance mostly) I do myself. I have, in the now-distant past, rebuilt a few engines, but never an air-cooled. I directed the total rebuild of my first P-car engine back in the 60's but did not do the work. Still waiting to hear who you pick to run w/ the tough stuff, once you get a grip on what all is going to be done. Tiff's? Peek's? Those are the only ones around here that I know of, and they have good reps, far as I know. I have heard there is another Bug shop in B'more somewheres that maybe Cory knows about. And then there would be The Wrench . . .

Also, very interested to hear what level of support you will get from the builder and his supplier. This appears to be a clear case of incompetence and they should be showing some level of responsibility for the fix, seesm to me.

Paul -- Before I had anyone tear into the engine I would send the pictures off to Scat. I'd include the history of the engine (how you got it, how many miles, and that TR says Scat does not back their products. I might also include a copy of this speedsterowners forum thread)
Perhaps Scat really does back their product. Perhaps they would be horrified to see their product getting bad press. Perhaps they might delight me with an immediate and aggressive solution for assuring my praise and satisfaction.

One thing is for sure, those bolts should not have snapped, and they should not have been misaligned with the cylinder. They know it and I would be surprised if they didn't fix it.

Just a thought,
Mark

Just a theoretical question: suppose the bolts and case inserts and so forth here were perfect -- all correctly made, fully strong and torqued to the exact right spec -- just suppose. Is there any other thing that could be going on w/ the engine that would cause the loads on these rods to be overstressed? Is it possible to set the timing so wrong that the engine pings like crazy, and rattles these things until they fatigue? (N.B.: I do not see fatigue failure characteristics in the photos, but such could be seen readily w/ a microscope.] Or if the piston got locked, somehow. [This would not compute because if it got locked and slammed the head, how could it keep on running too? -- makes no sense.] What totally weird thing could possibly be another explanation??

Kelly,

Tom asked if I water could have gotten into the cylinder. He said the pressure generated by water in the compustion chamber could have caused the studs to snap. You probably have a better idea as to why. I only design buildings, not rockets.

The engine is with a gentlmen named Jimmy Sartwell. Looks to be just opening this shop up. As i understand it he built Cory's type IV and welded up the frame, exhaust, etc. He does not use chromoly head studs when building an engine. Reason being the limited ability for the chromoly studs to grow with the engine as it heats up. Its just one opinion out of 100's, but I can see where he is coming from.

Mark,

Thanks for the advice. I called SCAT. First off, their engines are warranted for 1 year or 6k miles, whichever comes first. My engine is out of warranty. Their stance is the studs were over torqued at some point once the motor left SCAT's shop.

OK then. Let the "scat" fall where it belongs, right in SCAT's lap. In my opinion that is an engine that was built wrong. The pictures make it obvious. I have a whole 2332 full of SCAT parts. I can assure you there won't be any more, ever!

PS: Perhaps giving SCAT one last benefit of doubt: Did they get to see the pictures?

Sartwell = "The Wrench". He does know these engines. Also know that his idea of a great engine is one that runs like stink for about ten seconds. I'm just sayin' Don't pay him up front; make him do the work, then pay him, otherwise your machine may be held for ransom later. Not sure why Cory recommended him. Anyhow, . . .

I couldnt help but laugh out loud when I read your response Kelly. Its a nervous reaction.

Ever feel like, with these cars, you're just along for the ride...

This too will pass.

Getting that old sinking feeling......

I think this will work out well for you, Paul.
Keep me posted, okay?

Kelly, after all the BS Paul has gone through with his car, he just wanted a good LOCAL mechanic well-versed in Type Is. Jimmy is starting over in a new location. I called him about Paul, and he suggested Paul contact him directly.

We'll see how well this goes for both parties.

Cory,

OK fine. I thought you had given The Wrench one too many second chances already, and so that door had been closed. Ever the redeemer, you are. If he stays pointed fwd, I do believe he can fix this. There is naught about the details here that he does not know, I'm sure of that. We will all stay tuned.
Paul: be sure to tell what sort of BS (er, I mean support) you get from your builder. 12+ mos have gone by, and his hands are clean, and your money already spent, so tough noogies, right?, nevermind the evidence.

PS on hydrolock: to my knowledge, if you have that, the piston just stops when you try to start it. The water gets in while engine is still. and the force exerted is only that generated by the starter, which just locks up and nothing more happens. At least that is what happened to me a while back. Removed the spark plug, cranked the engine a few times to clear the water, put the plug back and vrooooom. The only thing I can think of is if the engine were running, and you dropped a nut or washer or something down the carb, and it got by the intake valve somehow and got smashed between piston and head, then maybe huge tension goes on the tie-bolt. But your engine kept going, so where did the "foreign object" go to then? Nope, I just can't come up w/ anything remotely plausible, other than some ham-hand cranked those rods down way too much, or they were truly faulty material to start with.

Someone suggested that the tapped holes in the case were not put in the right place, i.e., too close to the bore. Well, if the barrels and heads are in the right place and the tie bolts had to go in a little off normal, then when torqued down the bolt would have to bend right at the thread joints in order to try to line up. Ideally, the hole in the head nut and the hole in the case need to be dead-on concentric after everything is tightened down, and if they are not, then when the torque is applied the rod will have to develop two small kinks in order to accommodate the off-set. A few mills here or there, no big deal, but a large off-set might make for a high shear stress, and there you are. Maybe. There must be a way to check all of this. The stresses so developed, if this theory holds, would be very high shear, and, BTW the fracture surfaces you show in your pictures are classic shear, to my eye. Keep the fragments, I'd ike to take a closer look.

The head studs in both VW and Porsche cases have been problematic for many years. I would not be quick to blame this failure on the builder, could be, but it could be a lot of other things too. There are reasons that people offer 10mm bolts to replace the stock sized 8mm bolts....and reasons that case savers are also available. In my case the last engine I built I used case savers, bought 10mm ARP studs from L&N Engineering, and then had them cryogenically treated...

This engine failure could be a case of "stuff happens" with no specific cause and no one really at fault. Could have been a fault in the steel of the stud, or it could have been over torqued. It also depends on where the stud came from, if it is one of the more recent Chinese imports, they are frequently "real crap" and made of old Yugo fenders resplendent with rust oclusions, faults, stress cracks, and are frequently very "soft"....

And yes, we should be able to trust big name builders to "do the right thing" both when the engine is built and in the case of a failure....but often that is not the case...

When we do the 1915's for kirk the 94 male piston sleeve's were casted a little different were the stud's go through the cylinder . And you have to grind the area to clear so the cylinder can seat in the case .Maybe the builder didn't catch this and the cylinder was rubbing and caused some fatigue in the stud .

A warranty like a contracts are not worth the paper they are printed on. What is valuable is a business name you can trust and rely on in a situation where things go bust hence the business looks like the mean old junk yard dog.
In some situations and outside of a warranty it can be business wise to step up and do something to make the customer happy... not saying sponsor an entire build but do something as discounting parts and perhaps throw in free shipping as this simple gesture with surely be appreciated and come back around in the business's favor ten fold as the best advertisment is by word of mouth.
Once in a while I do this type of non profit gesture in my transport business and all I can say is that, it works. ~Alan

Roland, that's what I am thinking, and the stud would shear-off at the case. The pictures seem to have evidence of that.

Alan, you are absolutely correct. There is no substitute for customer service -- especially when it is not owed or expected!

I received a call from Tom at Thunder Ranch today. Was told to ship the motor back and he would break it down, have machine work done to the case, cylinders, heads in order to install 10 mm Head Studs. No charge. I certainly appreciated the offer and am very happy to say I feel They came though. Cant cover shipping the motor so i will pull all the chromoly and install stock 8mm head studs. I will also have the cylinder machined so there will be no contact between itself and the head stud. Will check all other cylinders while the studs are out.

This will get me back on the road enjoying the ride, thats really what matters.

Quickly, after speaking with a couple people about chromoly studs i have decided against using them. Reason being the chromoly do not allow for expansion, they dont grow with the engine. I am told the chromoly are great on a race engine that will be broken down and rebuilt built a lot. They chromoly studs are designed to withstand the constant re-torque where stock studs would fatigue and fail.

Now all I can do is sit back, put another 10k on the car this summer and see what happens.

Thanks to everyone.

You can call gene berg they used to sell factory head stud's .Also you can't install 10mm case saver's in a motor already opened up for 94's .When they bore the hole it cut's into the case saver's .

Paul - that sounds encouraging! Hope it all comes together all right and you can get back on the road real soon.