Vibration and other front end questions

My tub vibrates at 65mph on the button.  I still haven't tried to remedy this since my original complaint post last year.

 

I would give you the link to my original post which contains lots of useful suggestions, but the search function of this forum is by far the most un-user friendly I have ever encountered (as is the overall format of this forum).

 

I can't help but chuckle every time the (become a paid member) pop up happens every once in a while.  I'll pay when the forum becomes user friendly.

 

/rant  Sorry

Lane - sorry wish I could help. But does sound like most if not all the issues are coming from the same problem. I had my boxster wheels powder coated black and was also worried about scratching when fixing or balancing. I found a reputable shop with a bunch of car guys and when they saw the boxster they new i wasnt messing around with them screwing it up. I could not have been happier with the result. Balance and align and all my vibrations went away. BUT my vibrations started at 70 and went to 130! Find a good shop - clean and call and tell them the story and that you need them to be perfect in the balance...

Does anyone speed balance any more, I mean actually spinning the wheel on the car?

 

Best method I ever found with my old Healey's wire wheels.

I was just about to suggest the same thing.  But what if you rotate tires?  Will they still be in balance, considering they were balanced for the hub they were on at the time.

Maybe you have a loose nut behind the steering wheel :-)

Ladys and gentlemen lets give a warm soc round of applause to our own Tooooooooooommmmmm Blankenshhhhhiiiiippp...he will be here all week.  Please dont forget to tip your waitresses

Ladys and gentlemen lets give a warm soc round of applause to our own Tooooooooooommmmmm Blankenshhhhhiiiiippp...he will be here all week.  Please dont forget to tip your waitresses

Try the veal!

   

Lane--nothing more frustrating than the feeling that a tire is out of balance or that the alignment is just not right.  I fought that issue the first year I had my car and finally just got some new wheels that ended up being ok.  I found a really good tire shop and told the owner, who I have been buying tires from for 20 years, that I wanted a perfect wheel balance.  I told him that I felt that this car, being so light, any poorly balanced tire would be even more noticable than on a big, heavy car. (I don't know if that's true or not.)

 

So, rather than just hanging weights on the wheels to get to balance, he actually broke the tire down and used the heavy part of the tire itself as the balancing weight.  It took a few tries to spin the deflated tire on the rim to find the sweet spot but he took his time with it and did a sensational job.  Some very small weights were still needed here and there but the big honkin' weights I used to get to obtain a balance.  I think this helped a lot.  The special balancing along with

the alignment I got at another place made the car silky smooth.  The deal on the alignment I never knew was that the published specs we are using  (I'm talking 60s bug pans now) were for bias belted tires, NOT steel belted radials and for these modern tires the front toe-in should be -1/32" each side and NOT -1/8"to 1/16"           Who wudda thunk it.

 

So the combo of better wheels, a great balance and a correct wheel alignment made my VS a dream to drive.  I wonder if your wheels should be spun on a balancing tool to see how round they are.  Damned Chinese stuff.   Good luck with it before Carlisle!

Haven't been able to find anyone in the area who does a road force balance (balancing on the car).  I agree that would be the best way to either fix it, or figure out what the issue is.  If I need new tires, so be it.  I really don't want to have to replace the wheels.

 

As for Tom, well 

Lane  -- 

 

Regarding the vibration; I think you are aimlessly chasing your tail until you do an ordinary every day at any good tire shop spin balance.  If you have wide-5s they will need an adapter for their machine (call first and ask).

If you don't know for sure that your wheels are in balance, then everything else you do is blindly shooting in the dark.

It is also pretty easy to notice when the wheel is spinning on the balancing

machine if it is out of round or wobbling on a bent rim.

 

Regarding pulling to the left under braking; I can't imagine the logic you are using by mis-adjusting the brakes variously on different corners.

At this point I recommend that you have the brakes readjusted properly to the way they are supposed to be, perhaps "professionally".

Pulling one way or the other may be an issue of front alignment, worn front steering/suspension components, or defective front brake components.  So, when you are at the tire shop getting your wheels balanced, have them put it on the rack to check your brakes, then have them do a front end alignment for you.

 

$100 all-in.

Call me in the morning if it still hurts.

 

PS:  Wheel balancing weights on the edge of the rim are period-correct.

Wheels were balanced when the tires were transferred to the red rims.  I plan to do it again before doing anything else, but was proactively asking for thoughts since the last spin balancing didn't help.  The entire front end of the car is only 6 1/2 years old, built with all new components, and this problem has been there since the beginning.  It does seem to fade and strengthen in a pattern that I can't identify, but it never goes away.  There are weights on both sides of the rims, but the outer ones have been painted to be less obvious.

 

Re the brakes, the logic was that the only adjustments possible were to the rear as I have disks in front.  Ergo, if it pulls left, tighten the right side.  They have been adjusted professionally (as well as by me), but the problem persists.

Lane, my track Miata had a shimmy at 60-65 mph too.  This didn't surprise me, as Miatas are very sensitive to wheel/tire balancing.  I solved the shimmy problem by finding a place that did Road Force balancing.  This is the first thing you need to do.

A good shop that does Road Force balancing can tell you if your tires are at fault.  If you Road Force balance your wheels and there is still a shimmy at 60+ I'd have a front end alignment done next.  Start with the easiest/least expensive thing to do and go from there.

You can find your nearest shop that does Road Force balancing here:

http://www.gsp9700.com/search/findgsp9700.cfm

 

I can't help you with your braking problem.  Have you thoroughly bleed your brakes?  When you bled them did the flow seem to be similar in all four brakes? (just wondering about an obstruction in the brake line).

 

 

 

 

I have had the problem of vibration since new.  I tried the "dynabeads" approach (you too Lane?), but that only moved the vibration point about 3 mph higher; essentially still the same problem exists.  I have tried balancing repeatedly, new wheels, new tires all to no avail.  I even went to a specialty shop and had the tires balanced on a Hunter Road Force balancer.  This exercise cost about $45 and nothing changed.  Apparently, spinning wheels on the car is a lost art.  I read somewhere that this was due to safety issues (???).  I'm due for new tires before too long, so maybe I'll get some relief......doubt it. 

Bridget shimmies at 45 mph. My solution is to go faster. Works just fine.

Just a thought here, gentlemen: even though Porsche used what was essentially a Beetle front end on the 356a, it had some changes to make it better. One was wider mounting points on the front beam.

 

Obviously, my first step would be to do a road-force balance and get a good alignment. I'd also make sure I had a steering dampener in place. But if I was still having trouble with vibration, I'd pretty strongly consider the front end stiffeners available from JPS or from CSP. They can't hurt.

 

I think it's in the tires, especially since it seemed to follow them, but after you've exhausted them as a possibility, I'd still do the other stuff.

 

I'm assuming you've bled the brakes more than once-- if not, I'd do it. Assuming you have, and it hasn't helped--  I'll bet a donut you've got a front caliper issue. You could prove this to yourself by switching the calipers side to side and re-bleeding the brakes.

 

this doesn't sound insurmountable, but I'll bet it's maddening.

Thanks, Ron!  Apparently the place that last balanced the wheels NOW has a Road Force balancer.  They didn't back then.  That'll be the first stop.  As for the brakes, yeah, they've been bled and appear normal.  I have braided hoses on all wheels, for what that's worth.

 

Hoss: Yeah, I tried the balance beads.  No help.

 

Stan: The Beck frame has the front beam welded to it at the widest possible point just inside the uprights.  It's pretty stiff.  Your suggestion to swap calipers side to side is a good one.  I'll try that when I have a chance.

 

Anyone have any ideas about the squealing brakes on slow turns?  It's not loud, but it is a little odd that it happens only when they are NOT applied.  Wheel bearings?

I too have a light vibration.  I think it is the rotors.  

 

The Red Man has a Mustang II front end, so I googled something like "Mustang II shimmy" and wound up on a street rod site.  Mustang II front ends are common on street rods so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  One respondent stated that he had added a steering damper  on his rod and this resolved, he claimed, about 95% of his shimmy problem.  I don't know, maybe this is worth a try.

Lane, I've had wheel bearing go before, but the sound was more like a grating-rumble than a squeal.  Have you tired applying the brakes while you're turning the corner?

When you get your wheels Road Force balanced ask to see the Road Force numbers (lower is better).  A Road Force balancing is only as good as the guy operating the machine.

Just curious, do they only use weights on certain wheel types? I checked my Fuchs(EMPI) and they don't have any.  

 

Side note about rounds wheels.  Henry and I were chatting about wheels last year when he was trying out some of the EMPI Fuchs; I asked him what his opinion was and he replied "so far they are round" .  I paused for a few seconds and then he said "no really, you would be surprised at some of the crap thats out there"    

 

 

Marty, you sure you don't have those stick-on types?

Lane, one fleeting thought passed through my foggy brain; worn bushings in a front spindle or a possible weak shock absorber? Also check to make sure it's not a tire rubbing inside the fender when turning making you think it's a front brake the noise.

Nolan....   Unlike your Fender Bead eating beast, Lane's car showed no signs of scrubbing when I did a visual at Asheville last year.....  You really should feed your car better rubber, or it needs to develope a taste for cheaper fiber glass....  I'm just sayin'  

Lane:
Real short as I'm in an Internet cafe but if you chamfer the leading edge of your front brake pads at a 30 degree angle for about 3/16" the squeal should stop.  Check the bearing tightness professionally, too. 
Since so many different versions of speedsters have "scuttle shake" and can't greatly improve it, the best you can do is road force balance the wheels and then give up.
The traveling Speedstahguy

Shocks and steering damper replaced some time ago to attempt to fix this.  No help.  if I apply the brakes in the low-speed turn, the squeaking stops.   There is no rough rumbling in the bearings that I can discern.  that squeak is a very minor problem, and I'm not going to worry too much about it.

 

So here's where I think we are:

1. I have already done most of the suggestions related to the shake/shimmy thingie except for the road force balance.  That will be my next step.  If the balance doesn't fix it, possible causes are:
2. • Tire out of round
   • Rim out of round
   • Rotor out of round
   • Some or all of the above
   • NOTE: Although the spare is a taller, narrower tire, I can use it to attempt to isolate the bad wheel.
3. Brake pull could be caused by:
4. • I suck at adjusting the rear brakes - Other's have tried with little more success.
   • Bad caliper up front - Try swapping sides and seeing if there's an effect.
5. Probably not a bad bearing up front, but should have someone better than me check for bearing tightness.  I chamferred the pads when I installed the last set of new ones to see if that helped.  The squeak is not something that I lose sleep over.

Does that about cover it?

 

Just noticed that the automatic numbering got kinda wonky.  Interesting.

Regarding your pulling brakes- if you've gone through everything else and are still at a loss, one of your flexible brake lines could have swelled almost shut. IIrc, you mentioned you had stainless steel hoses, and if they're rubber lined it can happen.

FWIW - In the 16 years I've owned my VS and logging nearly 138,000Km (approx 86,000 miles) all over the Western U.S, it always had a slight shimmy at certain speeds, creaks or squeaks under certain conditions, leaks when I drive it in the rain and has a poor excuse for a cabin heater.

 

Through the years, when my initial attempts to remedy these maladies did not solve the issue, i just said "F*** it" and continued driving. Don't worry, be happy! 

 

ALB - Yeah, I have the rubber lined steel hoses.  I put them on in an attempt to eliminate a potential cause for the pulling.  No effect.

 

MUSBJIM - I hear ya, and have been doing that for going on seven years now.  Still, the shake/shimmy happens at a speed that I drive at frequently, and I'd love to eliminate it.  I won't obsess about it, tho'.  Too much driving to be done.

you can jck up the car & check the wheels your self for bent etc.make sure the caliper bleed screw is on top.if not that caliper go's on the other side,and you not getting all the air out. when you bleed them go ahead and run a lot of fluid through the system, I mean a lot, this stuff absorbs water, so changing it is a good thing.as for whee bearings get skf, timkin, etck not the china bearings that are soft & dont last.use good synthetic greezzee, do not use any greezzee that has teflon in it , it will kill breaings as it is for shafts&bushings&splines. depending on the type of roters you may have an unbalanced rotor causing the issue.some are cast&just machined on the mounting flange,the disc aera&the bearing resess and the bulk is left un machines witch will cause an un balance in the rotor.I have a set of rear empi rotors that were way out of round where they were not machined on the casting center& not machined on a major portion it had about .090" runout where it wasent machined, Iron is heavy. I machinde it & never woried about it again.

   Usualy a pull is in the front brakes, the rear brakes will usualy feal like a shift from 1 side to the other, it's quite diferent than a pull, and usualy un noticable to most. a lot of cars you could lock up a rear and it would still go straight.so it's probably all in the front.

 you may also need to add some caster to the beam if possiable, but if it's welded in the mfr would of done what it neded.but for bolt in beams there are aluminum caster shims that go between the beam&the frame head lower tube to add some caster that is lost when the beam is "lowered"(tube cut&springs relaxed so it sits lower with a lighter car)

   my bug gets a shimmy around 48mph.depending on the road,the weather & the moon cycles.but it has some sand wheels on the front(3"x15" aluminum stamped, very light weight)and they were the effed up est wheels I have ever seen for new wheels as far as being straight or round.....but they were made for sand buggys.Im fixen to take the wheels off my speedster & put on the bug as those tires&wheels have been on the front for 12 years and are past needing replaced.and the 356 has new stuff on it that it dont need for a while& may not ever be back on it(Im not a fan of the chromed wheels&moon cap stuff)

        go out and grab your wheels and see if you can move them and feal any movement in the bearings or stearing componets. you can learn a lot just by feal and see what is going on.

        and always try to keep the rear brakes adjusted the same, becasue it may not make much differance in pull but it will make a differance in how long it takes to stop when you need it to.. Ive been building cars&motorcyces for about 7/8 of my life.we had 1 gocart that didnt have brakes.I learned from that .

I've checked the wheels for unusual movement, and all seems well.  I looked online for rotors, and noticed that German rotors aren't that much more than el cheapos.

 

Here's what I'm gonna do:

1. Readjust the rear brake to get them even and quit using them to compensate for the front.
2. See if I can get a Road Force balance done.
3. Test drive and see what the status is.
4. If there's still a shake, I'll jack the car up and check for out of round wheels or tires.
5. Use the spare to see if I can isolate a bad wheel/tire.
6. Determine if I need new tires or wheels or just live with it.
7. Try swapping calipers between the sides to see if the pull moves.
8. Possibly replace calipers or just live with.  It's not really that bad, but I'm a perfectionist.
9. Consider replacing rotors with German units.
10. Wonder if I'm just looking for projects so that I have some reason to work on the car.
11. Have a beer and consider that possibility.
12. Have another beer.

Too bad we don't live close; I could really help you with 11 and 12.

if your realy looking for somethen to work on ........LANE ANDERSON.!!! come on down!! your a contestaint on .....Im getten too old for this stuff. Ive sat down and I cant get up !! where's that darn life alert guy.

 a hose normaly causes it to pull after you let off the brake when they go bad, by keeping some pressure in the caliper,but I reckon it could also do what your is doing but it would probably be the caliper hose on the other side of the pull (pulls left ,right hose not letting enough or a restricted fluid to the right caliper causing it to not apply as quickley as the left one that is working properly and thus you get the pull from the one working corectly.it coulsd also be a caliper piston seezzeing somewhat.)

Since I've already replaced all the hoses, and the problem didn't change a bit, I'm leaning toward the caliper thing.  We''ll see.

 

Now about that beer...

I'd open one too, but I bumped my head skiing yesterday (I was unconcious for about 45 seconds) so the doctor says to stay away from alcohol for a little while...

Lane, consolidate numbers 11 and 12, and then insert them between each number from 1 and 10.

 

Careful Al-remember Sunny Bono.

All kidding aside...Al, are you joking about "laying off alcohol" as your doctors only comment? Unconscious for 45 seconds and no one is using the word concussion?

 

I'm a little sensitive to this topic. December 2011, WITH helmet, my daughter had a fall snowboarding. She never lost consciousness. And was still out of school for several weeks and on limited physical activity for months.

 

OK, my paranoia is now public. But I'm paranoid for a reason.

 

Hope you are ok Al.

There was more to it than that; I'm not having any problems with headaches or concentrating. The no alcohol bit was just the highlight of the speech...