Vintage built speedster

On 11/6/20

@Stan Galat posted:

It's a swing-axle car. Please don't ever forget that. Your biggest problem is not body roll, it's snap oversteer-- especially if the engine is heavier than stock (and if it's a Subaru or a T1 built on an AL case, it's heavier). If I had a swing-axle car (and I haven't since 2002), I'd bolt on a good camber compensator, some limit-straps, or both-- and just run the stock 1/2" VW bar in the front, if I ran anything at all. A swing-axle car is not likely to be a canyon racer (if you want that, get IRS) and a 3/4 bar will just make it ride like a log-wagon.

On 12/3/20

@Stan Galat posted:

I'm sticking with my advice, because it might save somebody's life. If you've got a swing-axle car-- get a stock sway-bar and a camber compensator, even if all you are doing is profiling down to the DQ on a Friday evening. It's like decent brakes-- you never know when you'll need 'em.

On 1/4/23

@Stan Galat posted:

That's a swaybar on a swing-axle rear end, which I find to be somewhat terrifying. You really don't want a rear swaybar on a swing-axle.

I'd take it off. Legit - for safety's sake, please take it off and get a Camber Compensator from CB Performance.

_{*Click on the blue font. It's a link to what you want.}

On 1/29/23

@Stan Galat posted:

I think we went over this recently. If it has a swing axle, there should not be a rear swaybar at all. Period.

Take it off and install a camber compensator.

I could keep doing this all afternoon, but I'm not sure what it would accomplish. It's the same advice over and over and over.

Please read this, from page 2 onward. _{(< that's a link, click it)} The life you save may be your own.

I know I'm hammering on this, but I'm hammering on it for good reason. Snap oversteer can kill you. It really can. Getting the right stuff on the car is more important than almost anything else you can do.

I've been saying this since the first time Popee posted, and (as you can see above) since long before then. Guys on this forum have rolled their car and died. Don't be that guy. It's a hundred and ten bucks. I can't see any reason not to do it.

"It's a hundred and ten bucks. I can't see any reason not to do it."

Truer words were never spoken.  Just do it.

Get the CB Performance unit that’s been shown before. Better quality at great price and US made.

When I  said the rear sway bar was intended for a swing axle car, as indicated by the Jbugs illustration, I wasn't advocating its use.  But, I think anyone buying it should be clear what it is.

A typical IRS rear sway bar attaches to the torsion bar tubes, not the frame horns as the illustrated bar does.

A swing axle car is not any more or less likely to flip because of ride height. In an extreme corner, the outside suspension is forced to extend into positive camber, then the tire digs in and you flip.

A compensator won't fit on my Vintage Spyder, so I have nylon limit straps that prevent too much positive camber.

A factory VW Z-bar was 1968 only, and IMHO was somewhat useless. An aftermarket Z-bar can be very effective. There is a guy in my Vee group who runs a 1970 Caldwell D-13 with 2 shocks and a Z bar. He is usually in the top 5.

But for my money, I'd just buy the CB compensator. You don't have to think about it, test it, or tweak it. Just purchase it and bolt it on. It's your life, though, not mine.

@Alan Merklin posted:

Best way to tighten the 10mm acorn nuts is with a short 1/4" ratchet and just tighten   with your pinky finger...  

I use a 1/4” driver handle. Almost impossible to get enough torque to strip them. Especially with greasy hands. And for me, it gives me a better feel for even torque between the nuts.

And, as always, star pattern.

The post above seems to be referring to the oil drain plate, a case of sudden thread drift.  I have a tiny little torque wrench that could be used.  I bought it to use on my C-channel valve covers so I wouldn't cut through the gaskets.

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Dammit Stan, here I am comfortable in my bubble of rationalizations and you have to come along and poke it full of holes.

I ordered 'camber compensator' on my original VS build sheet and received the EMPI one — with the snappy-looking red pads. It didn't seem to be very effective at controlling axle swing and started falling apart from day one. When it interfered with one of the transaxle mounts, putting in the five-speed, I ditched it altogether and have been going without ever since.

Not that I haven't wanted something back there minding rear-end excursions, though. I've come to live with the, uh, peculiarities of an unrestricted swing axle suspension in a tail-heavy car. To survive, you need to learn where that magic tipping point is and how to stay away from it at all costs. When you get a little too close, that squirrelly feeling gets your attention right quick and immediately puts you on your best behavior.

DON'T BRAKE!   EASE YOUR LINE!    COUNTER STEER!   STAY SMOOTH!

I think it's really a question of controlling weight transfer. Everything is balanced and then the road falls away in a way you hadn't anticipated, or you miscalculate and have to suddenly tighten your line, or an unseen pothole changes your plans. You need a strategy for coping if you're to survive. For me, it usually means cornering slower than the car could otherwise manage when on roads I don't know well. Not good, but the way I've chosen to live with swing axles.

But I didn't know there were other options, like travel-limiting straps that don't have to mount to the transaxle. What might be a good place to look for such stuff or do you roll your own?

This is one of those things I've been lazy about for too long.

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Mitch I think you’d need a new base plate made and mmmm for it anyway. The shape of the 5 speed might be too exotic for it.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.I didn't know there were other options, like travel-limiting straps that don't have to mount to the transaxle. What might be a good place to look for such stuff or do you roll your own?

This is one of those things I've been lazy about for too long.

@DannyP would be the guy to ask. I went IRS and never looked back.

Pacific Customs has limit straps.

https://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?

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Thanks, Rick.

These look straightforward and cheap enough. The question is what to mount them to. The obvious thing is a frame member just above the axle on either side that is part of the 2x2 framing added to the vw pan to support the fiberglass body.

But that of course was never engineered to support sudden down forces from the suspension (if there was any 'engineering' involved in its design at all).

I could see this resulting in a mechanism for automatically introducing butt sag.

On balance, if I have to choose between irs and five-speed, I'm happier with the poison I've already taken.

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

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Thanks, Rick.

These look straightforward and cheap enough. The question is what to mount them to. The obvious thing is a frame member just above the axle on either side that is part of the 2x2 framing added to the vw pan to support the fiberglass body.

But that of course was never engineered to support sudden down forces from the suspension (if there was any 'engineering' involved in its design at all).

I could see this resulting in a mechanism for automatically introducing butt sag.

On balance, if I have to choose between irs and five-speed, I'm happier with the poison I've already taken.

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Right off the shock mounts. Get longer bolts and spacers.

Mitch, you have a Berg 5, no? Since you still have a swing axle, I'm going to assume yes.

The trans is the same, except for the special Berg nosecone to house 5th gear. Same case, same gear housing. So the attachment of a camber compensator should be exactly the same.

As far as limit straps, the shock attachments are a good spot. On my car, I used the upper shock bolt and wrapped the strap around the axle tube. Carlos did the same, with fixed length straps and a bracket which was simply sheet steel wrapped around the axle tube. I keep mine such that each wheel can only go about 5 or 10 degrees positive camber. What you don't want is the wheels to hang all the way down at the full length of the shock. The shock is what limits travel in the first place, so a natural place to use.

If you really wanted to, you could convert both your car's suspension and trans to IRS. The trans would need a new differential, side covers, bearings and such. But the trans wouldn't even need to be completely taken apart. You'd need IRS trailing arms and have to weld trailing arm mounts to your torsion tubes. And new double-jointed axles. You know you want to...

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@DannyP posted:

Mitch, you have a Berg 5, no?...

Yup.

...you could convert both your car's suspension and trans to IRS....

...The trans would need a new differential, side covers, bearings and such....

Uh, well, that would mean first installing new kitchen countertops, cabinets, and appliances, if you follow my drift, so more costly than you might imagine...

...You'd need IRS trailing arms and have to weld trailing arm mounts to your torsion tubes. And new double-jointed axles...

See above remarks re: kitchen countertops, etc.

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Here is what my strap looks like. Like Danny, I have a Vintage framed Spyder.

I can adjust them  by sliding the muffler clamp up or down the axle tube.

I think I got everything from Summit.

@Sacto Mitch, what year pan was your car built on?  If 1969 and later, the IRS mounts will already be there.

Mitch, I definitely hear that. Why is it always a new kitchen? Happens to be the most expensive room in the house...

If you can find new appliances, hard-surface countertops, and cabinets for the price of an IRS conversion, I'd like to do business with your contractor. I'll take 100 of them.

That's at least $50K at a bare minimum- and that's moving no appliances, and certainly no plumbing.

Kitchens are where money goes to die, and the cost has almost nothing to do with functionality. The old cabinets and appliances will not kill you in a roll-over, they just aren't stylish enough for the average American woman (who doesn't really want to cook anymore anyhow).

People who spend >$50K on custom cabinets crack me up. Even moderately priced box cabinets almost never wear out anymore - they just go out of style and MUST be replaced (or painted, at this point in the HGTV universe). Counters even more so. A formica countertop will outlast most of mankind's sojourn on this blue ball, but the landfills are full of them because the white women of North America require quarried countertops of a very specific color and grain. Often, even that isn't enough - the quartz counters need to go, because granite is the thing now. I've seen people pull out hard surface counters because they didn't like the edge profile.

Maybe Mitch needs to put on his big-boy slacks, take a stiff swig of lambrusco and tell Mrs. Toll that not flipping and dying in the clown car is probably worth more than that planet-saving politburo-approved induction cooktop, even though it will likely cost less

... then go hide in the garage.

Love your rant Mr. Galat! 🤣 You are absolutely and unequivocally correct as in most of the time 😂. I wonder how much of a kitchen remodel you can buy with the $108 for a camber compensator.

@Impala posted:

I wonder how much of a kitchen remodel you can buy with the $108 for a camber compensator.

... perhaps a new toaster, if you don't need anything fancy.

@Stan Galat said: The old cabinets and appliances ...... just aren't stylish enough for the average American woman (who doesn't really want to cook anymore anyhow)."

That's how I got my garage shop cabinets:

My contractor son-in-law calls me one day and tells me he's doing a kitchen renovation including all new cabinets in a '70's home and did I want the old ones he's taking out?  "They look really nice, but she wants glass front units, instead - And not white."

So I go get them and later find out that the previous owner had a new kitchen installed in order to sell the house.  The cabinets they were taking out weren't even two years old!  Self-closing drawers, HD ball bearing glides everywhere, dual rotating corner units, Birch Veneer (not paint), the works.  I added LED bench lights under the hanging units (they're wicked bright) and did a simple counter top (I hope, someday, to find some used oak flooring to install as a better counter top) and that was it.  The new owner lady is happy, and so am I!

Nice!  How fortuitous.

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Stan, thanks for your succinct and eloquent statement of The Car Guy Manifesto, which is generally delivered with greatest passion from the safety of the garage, the pub, or forums like this which (for reasons I'll never understand) are generally peopled with grumpy old men and with younger men in training to be grumpy and old.

I know I risk my membership in good standing here by observing that the Speedster sits polished and ready in our garage, having had its every need lovingly addressed over the past 10 years, while our 35-year-old laminate countertops show obvious signs of aging and neglect.

It is one of the paradoxes of modern life that the more we work on the infrastructure of the garage, at the expense of the infrastructure of the kitchen, the more time we are likely to spend sequestered in the garage.

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I can't decide if I'm old and grumpy or just training to be old and grumpy, Mitch. Help a brother out?

In other news - 35 year old counters? I thought you lived in Kalifornia. Isn't it in the state charter that every kitchen must be remodeled every 5 years, under penalty of law?

You better get some stone from a European quarry before the cops find out.

_{P.S. - I would be remis to fail to point out that every need has not been lovingly addressed, @Sacto Mitch, which was the subject of this entire conversation. Please get something to prevent wheel tuck. You're too important to this site to lose.}

@Gordon Nichols posted:

@Stan Galat said: The old cabinets and appliances ...... just aren't stylish enough for the average American woman (who doesn't really want to cook anymore anyhow)."

That's how I got my garage shop cabinets:

My contractor son-in-law calls me one day and tells me he's doing a kitchen renovation including all new cabinets in a '70's home and did I want the old ones he's taking out?  "They look really nice, but she wants glass front units, instead - And not white."

So I go get them and later find out that the previous owner had a new kitchen installed in order to sell the house.  The cabinets they were taking out weren't even two years old!  Self-closing drawers, HD ball bearing glides everywhere, dual rotating corner units, Birch Veneer (not paint), the works.  I added LED bench lights under the hanging units (they're wicked bright) and did a simple counter top (I hope, someday, to find some used oak flooring to install as a better counter top) and that was it.  The new owner lady is happy, and so am I!

Absolute score!!!

Thanks to you two you made my morning light and I chuckled,  but then I thought about the guys who spend days shining their Harley rather than shining their… and end up permanently in the garage or the dog house…. aren’t the choices and seasons of life fun

Been training for old and grumpy for a while :h)

@Sacto Mitch posted:

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Stan, thanks for your succinct and eloquent statement of The Car Guy Manifesto, which is generally delivered with greatest passion from the safety of the garage, the pub, or forums like this which (for reasons I'll never understand) are generally peopled with grumpy old men and with younger men in training to be grumpy and old.

I know I risk my membership in good standing here by observing that the Speedster sits polished and ready in our garage, having had its every need lovingly addressed over the past 10 years, while our 35-year-old laminate countertops show obvious signs of aging and neglect.

It is one of the paradoxes of modern life that the more we work on the infrastructure of the garage, at the expense of the infrastructure of the kitchen, the more time we are likely to spend sequestered in the garage.

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If the plywood is good there’s no reason not to just swap the laminate. There are so much many more choices in terms of laminate these days than 35 years ago. And that goes for the cabinets themselves. But somehow some people think doing that is not as good as getting something totally new or stone or solid surfacing material. Many times you get something new that doesn’t even hold a candle to the quality in the material (old growth wood in many cases) and craftsmanship on an old set of cabinets. Unnecessary waste compounded by paying up the wazoo while not getting a good quality product all in the name of being trendy. There; I vented 😉

I am in the midst of refacing 2 bathroom vanity cabinets.  This involves putting new veneer over the cabinet frames and replacing the doors and drawer fronts.  It is much less costly than replacing the cabinets.

@Stan Galat posted:

... perhaps a new toaster, if you don't need anything fancy.

I recommend Smeg , we have one

After my IM, I had to renovate the kitchen, then terrace the whole yard, get a swim spa and a hot tub and a deck set.  Enough said

@Michael McKelvey posted:

I am in the midst of refacing 2 bathroom vanity cabinets.  This involves putting new veneer over the cabinet frames and replacing the doors and drawer fronts.  It is much less costly than replacing the cabinets.

Ahhhhhh..........    Methinks I see a precursor to some new Speedster part or accessory being worked in hopes of tacit approval.  

I hope it works, Mike!

I showed a few of these posts to "She who must be obeyed" and got a chuckle out of her. Evidently our shenanigans are no secret to our beloveds, but they are keeping score.

@Michael Pickett posted:

I showed a few of these posts to "She who must be obeyed" and got a chuckle out of her. Evidently our shenanigans are no secret to our beloveds, but they are keeping score.

You KNOW they keep score; and sometimes they let you know decades after the fact.

@Michael Pickett posted:

I showed a few of these posts to "She who must be obeyed" and got a chuckle out of her. Evidently our shenanigans are no secret to our beloveds, but they are keeping score.

Yes and the dollar value or your extravangance.    and yes the memory is long .....  

@Impala  "You KNOW they keep score; and sometimes they let you know decades after the fact."

@Gordon Nichols, I don't think it was that kind of a trade.  But, it is keeping me from working on the Speedster.

I totally repainted one bathroom and touched up the other where a mirror was removed.  I installed new mirrors, new light fixtures, and 4 new faucets.  Each new faucet took a surprising amount of time with my body contorted inside the vanity cabinet. Finally, the cabinet refacing.  I thought I was about done with one when I discovered I was sent 2 right doors instead of a right and a left for both cabinets.

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So, to recap here, of the many options available to me, including new differential gears and bearings, granite countertops, Delft tile ventilator hood surrounds, welded trailing arm brackets, designer toasters, and new cabinet laminate, the most workable and elegant solution seems to me the limiting straps installed by @Carlos G.

There might yet be some conflicts with that frame member that supports the body or brake lines, but I'll consult with Northern California's most eminent aircooled VW specialist for some hands on advice.

As for personal safety, I believe it was Stan himself who recently scolded that unless we live life on the edge, we're not really living it. And what could be closer to the edge, figuratively and literally, than not knowing for certain just how we're going to exit any given corner? Swing axles just naturally make every breath we draw on this earth that much more precious. We may not live as long, but we will have truly experienced the tree or bridge abutment that takes us out.

IRS smacks too much of the safe, certain, and predictable. It is modern, nanny engineering depriving us of the freedom to be wild and free.

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@Michael McKelvey posted:

I totally repainted one bathroom and touched up the other where a mirror was removed.  I installed new mirrors, new light fixtures, and 4 new faucets.  Each new faucet took a surprising amount of time with my body contorted inside the vanity cabinet. Finally, the cabinet refacing.  I thought I was about done with one when I discovered I was sent 2 right doors instead of a right and a left for both cabinets.

New Tools!  Yah gotta think about the new tools you'll need to do these interior renovations!

When we were in South Carolina we decided to upgrade a half bath downstairs.  It was nicely placed, but outdated and kinda "blah" looking.  So we got the new vanity and lights and sink and toilet and beadboard wainscoating and molding for the beadboard and as I'm pushing my loaded cart to the checkout, I spied a combo-pack of a contractor's compressor along with a pneumatic finish nailer, brad nailer and stapler, all on sale for about 50% off.  I don't know how, but that combo-pack ended up on my cart!  

Plus, in the 30 minutes it took me to get home, I came up with a few more things we could do with them after the half bath was done.  Perfect!  

I have Milwaukee hankering.  You?

@Sacto Mitch posted:

... As for personal safety, I believe it was Stan himself who recently scolded that unless we live life on the edge, we're not really living it. And what could be closer to the edge, figuratively and literally, than not knowing for certain just how we're going to exit any given corner? Swing axles just naturally make every breath we draw on this earth that much more precious. We may not live as long, but we will have truly experienced the tree or bridge abutment that takes us out.

IRS smacks too much of the safe, certain, and predictable. It is modern, nanny engineering depriving us of the freedom to be wild and free.

I wondered when my apparent contradiction (regarding risk) would be pointed out, and I love that it's my friend from Sacramento doing the pointing... as it was his parable of the cow which set us clucking like hens regarding buffhoonery on the public roadway. But here he is advocating for a suspension system he knows to be fundamentally flawed, precisely because it's flawed, which sets up an interesting (to me at least) discussion.

I don't think either of us are being intellectually dishonest, but think each of us are picking our respective poisons. The nuances between the approach of the antihoons and my own is that I'm not embracing a known flaw - I'm thumbing my nose at rules created for the lowest common denominator among us. I know things could go sideways, but it won't be with my equipment. My kit is solid.

I can't hoon in any kind of "good conscience" (as if that were possible, but stay with me) if I'm trying to "stop worrying and learn to love the bomb" by embracing a bad design. Mitch can, and does so with eloquence.

As such, it makes sense that he would advocate for antihoonery, because in running an uncontrolled swing-axle it is enough for him to feel like he's living on the edge - because he IS living on the edge in a contraption with known (but perfectly fixable) flaws.

I'll happily put my life on the line, but would prefer that the device I'm using not be the reason for the "iffy" state of things.

I'd get limit straps or a camber compensator if I were Mitch... but then again, I'd probably remodel the kitchen and convert to IRS.