Vintage heat routing

Since I've decided to keep my current speedster a '01 VS, I need to increase the heat output by changing the heat routing that is plumbed through the boxed chassis framework.
On the newer VS, Kirk uses pvc pipe... I'll be adding rubber pipe insuation....anyone have their car on stands that can send me detailed pics from the heater boxes to the kick panels? ~Alan

Why not just buy Wolfgang's BN4 and plumb it in?

Back in my senior year of HS I was sitting at a NJ all night diner when beetle got hit hit with a gas heater in it and exploded in flames ..hence I'd rather just go with the forced air.

Maybe you should just move to a warmer climate. hint hint hint
Hoss

Yeah....LOTS of places available down here!

Awww youz guys just want a good neighbor who happens to know speedies :)

Alan you could always go electric heatguns like Im going to. Done put one on and I about to tinker a second one togther.

I also have a vintage but it is a 07 and the heat is not good under a 30 degree day, so they are fair weather cars. but my heat tube are exposed to the air they are plastic. i think running them thru the box tubing would be better, let me know if wrapping them with rubber sleeve keeps more heat in. bill

Routing the heat through the CMC chassis or PVC pipe, the heated air cools as it travels though the mass of the chassis/piping to the interior.
By insulating the PVC pipe, the forced air retains most of it's heat.
Notice that when the heat lever is opened, the engine noise level increases ? This can also be remedied by cutting a few slices part way into the pipe and inserting discs 16" - 18" apart and half way through the pipe opposite of each other. Similar to a muffler, this reduces the engine noise without air flow restriction.~Alan

I have said it to a freind. before ,, wish their was a way to marry the vw heater channels into these cars and maintain the strength.. That needs more study!!!

I was thinking like boxing them in rails, then filling the voids with foam. Then cutting out the other rails and doing a swap. That would be a pain to glass back in. and the pipe intry would be tight to get straight into it,,The Hard Part!! but you would have HEAT!!...

Guess I need to defend my unsold Ebersparcher BN4 gas heater from Alan. My guess is the car he saw burst into flames would have done same with or witout the gas heater --- just like the Pinto in rear crashes. As primative as the BN4 appears - it does have some safety features like over heat limit and flip-over switch. They are widely used in Europe on old VW, Porsche and Mercedes as well as trucks and boats. If installed with some care and checked on - suspect risk is low. Probably more risk from fire with carb, those plastic fuel filters and trying to use 30 year old OEM fuel lines. I still cringe at idea of welding the gas tank to relocate the filler and welding shut the old opening --- seems like instant entry into Funniest Videos.

You need to hear Alan's story of the contact cement can placed on a space heater in his garage (think I got it close). As for me, warmer climate (FL) --- but still fighting for reasonable property insurance. Somehow gorgeous unobstructed views of the Gulf of MX come with high insurance permiums.

Greg,
I have nothing against the BN4 heaters, many use them w/o problems but just not for me. I still steer inquiries to the gas heater guy in Hopatcong, NJ.

Disclaimer:) It wasn't ME that set the empty can of 3M spray adhesive on a kerosene heater in MY garage. Not funny at that moment in time, that was a rocky situation at best and glad that I can still hear..

A simple solution would be to insert PVC pipe into the 2x4 steel framework as the frame is being build, surrounding it with spray expansion foam would make for a good insulator. I had an old Bradley GT 1 that had the insualted heat tube running through a double wall the heat would cook me out of there in the winter months.

I may try that yeat, Alan. But Im keepin the heatguns . If I want to drive it back to the mountains in dead winter with outside temps in the 20s ?? Im hoping to stay nice a toasty. thats my goal anyway....

the expanding foam retains moisture, so rust would be a future problem (although - it's not like these cars have 150,000kms on them and are driven in the winters).

.......what brand of heat guns are 12v ?

None,I guess... I built the first one from 2 Haloray defroster kits. Its so hot you just dont put your hand in front of it for very long.
I already have the parts for the second one just need to find some time to tinker it together.

Alan? Excuse me for takin so long to get back here . But how would it do to lay the PVC on the outside of the rails and wrap them seperatly with the foil backed stuff and let the hole cut be straight troughrail into the cab.

Routing the rear part is my only real concern

Alan Wrote: Disclaimer:) It wasn't ME that set the empty can of 3M spray adhesive on a kerosene heater in MY garage. Not funny at that moment in time, that was a rocky situation at best and glad that I can still hear....

My brother did that when he tried heating up a can of ALPO on the kitchen stove for the dogs once when we were kids (of course, the folks were off on vacation somewhere and we were home alone).

He had just put in on the (electric) stove when the phone rang, he answered it and forgot the can. A few minutes (well, maybe more than a few) and BLAM!

The can explodes, going straight up and embeds itself in the ceiling while the ALPO blasts out the bottom like the take off of a Saturn 6B rocket, pretty much coating most of that end of the kitchen. Took him (us) three days to get the kitchen finally cleaned up.

As soon as our folks walk back in (honest to God - it was less than 5 seconds after then arrived) my mother says "What's that funny smell?" and my Dad says: "What the hell hit the ceiling??"

Sheese.........

And for the next few weeks, you just couldn't get those dogs to stay out of the kitchen? Memories are made of this. (Dean Martin song).

Alan:
I did exactly what you mentioned last winter and it help a little, but not as much as I expected. I wrapped the corrigated tubing that Kirk uses with 1/2" thick pipe insulation and just put it all back in place.

Barry:
Can you describe what you are talking about with the "heat guns" in a little more detail? Thank you.
Troy

I bought 4 haloray defroster units like plug into your cigerette lighter jack.

I took them apart combining 2 the elements into a double coiled element held by 1/4 ring terminals that fits into a 8 inch long peace of 2 inch plaster based fire proof pipe its good to 2,500 degrees. I made the 2 new blowers from the scraps. and used PVC plumming peaces to make the cases.. But a Bus twin outlet blower would probaley work just fine for that if you have enough room under your dash for it. I did not!!

When I rework it and twin it with both blow guns (and I finished the second one today,) I want to use vw battery cable size wires from the battery to the heaters. and Im useing a race car power interupt switch to turn them on and off. If you have ever seen the early porsche light switch with the lever knob its a very close match to that..

I also want to run a light wire up to the gauges so I can see when its on. I have one leftI can use..

I left the thermal switches out of the things, that regulate the temps... But with a fire proof case theres nothing to melt and the blowes are fast enough to keep the elememt from burnning out.

I used it back at halloween on a trip for several hours with out any trouble at all. and on several grocery runs sence..

One more thing .. Im running a 95 amp alternator witha big gel cell battery You will need to do that upgrade FIRST

Barry-

The idfea of electric heat comes around every year about this time. It's a losing proposition.

Volts x Amps= Watts. Btus/hr= heat. 1 watt= roughly 3 btus/hr.

95a @12v= 1140w= 3891 btu/hr. 3891 btu/hr is not very much heat, and getting it is assuming you have nothing else drawing current in your car (like lights, ignition, etc.). A much more realistic figure would put you at about 70a available (if you don't go nuts with a big stereo, driving lights, etc.), which would only put out 840w, or 2767 btu/hr.

3000 btu/hr might be enough to heat an air-tight cabin, after a long enough period of time, but it isn't going to be as nice as it seems like it should be.

When I was building my car in 2005, nobody was making 1-5/8" heater boxes (OK, Berg was, but you had to buy his entire ugly exhaust for $1800), so the only realistic option was a gas heater. A1 is making a 1-5/8" heater box for type 1 now. If you have an engine in the 100 h/p range, and you want to use a 1-1/2" header, then there are relatively inexpensive heater boxes which will put out a lot more heat than the "heat guns" you are talking about.

The trick is getting cabin heat (as opposed to outdoor air) supplied to the boxes, having a fan, and ducting the hot air to your feet without rejecting it all outside. Porsche did it, and it worked fine.

However, if you've got a bigger engine, or a Type 4, or you are picky about your exhaust set-up- then a good gasoline heater really is the only way to go.

OK you have my mind going. I am a tinkerer.... what about:

Set up in the engine compartment a radiator with anti-freeze. A small one from maybe a small lawn tractor or motorcycle. Have this attach to an electric water pump that runs by the hottest part of the motor, in theory you should be able to recreate heat like our water cooled cars and have this run through into the cabins...... huh-huh?

Mike:

Why not just put your external oil cooler in a junk yard car heater box and blow air through it, just like it was water cooled? The heater box sets cockpit temp by mixing cool and warm air so the cooler just sits there with 200 degree oil in it instead of water.

I'm thinking of getting a Subaru or Miata heater for the new kit, and just putting it right behind the rear seat in the void back there. inlet air from the back of the cockpit, outlet air under the dash.

Either install an oil flow valve for the Summer, such that the flow gos to a different external cooler, rather than the heater (so it won't drive you out) or just have two of them in series or something and not turn on the heater blower.

gn

See, now we're talkin'. This can be mod'd and sold. There is enough engine heat to heat up water or oil. I think that in order to not lose the benefit of heat you will need to have the system oil or water filled and not rely on blowing air which will lose heat as it travels to the front. So plumping a copper pipe along the bottom and T'd to each foot well with 2 small blowers that will blow it on your feet, maybe even a Y to your dash....You will need a heater core type that may have to fit in the trunk and distribute the heat.

Toasty!

You're a bit off on the forced air being oily smelly etc. If the heat supply system is in good condition, there are no faults.

I will not go gas heater. I have seen what can happen when it goes out of whack.. It can burn a car to the ground..

NO SIR!

I have seen the water heater thing that AC propulsion puts on their electric cars but you don't have enough room for it on these cars..

In 30 degree weather one Heat gun will surprise you with how well it does. But two heat guns will most likely be good enough.

In my car I have noticed some air loss around the non zipper rear window. I can seal that up or plumb the existing VW heat back into the rear shelf area from the engine. If both are done along with the heat guns. I should be way over what is needed for 20 degree weather.

But I would rather not use engine forced heated air. In most Vw its a oily .smelly .and unsafe, sooner or later, makes a mess of your interior as well.

I got it this far ok.. Im hoping to be able to do fine just with the heat guns..

Alan sooner or later your going to have a valve cover leak or a exhaust leak that will bring the mess into the cab its the classic VW cab smell that if you have owned a few bugs you should know it well.

How many people can always stay on top of the engine up keep ?

--------$$it happens!-----

".....if you have owned a few bugs you should know".
Around 20 Beetles and 15 speedsters to date..."The educated consumer"

I'm not trying to be Mr. Know-It-All here, but I've really given this a LOT of thought over the years. And have come to some pretty definite conclusions.

Barry, go ahead and knock yourself out with the "heat guns"- but in any climate north of the Mason/Dixon line, it's gonna' be an exercise in futility. Electricity has it's place in keeping you warm- and it's a seat heating pad, and electric blanket- for about $50 total.

As far as Gordon's idea- that actually came in a close second to the gas heater when I was researching it in '04. It's a good idea that would require a bit of work to get done, but has a lot going for it. When I was considering it, I was afraid of the length of lines, etc.- but there are a lot of guys running Setrabs behind the horn grilles, so that probably isn't an issue. A bigger concern is the actual temperature of the oil- under 30 deg O/A temp, my car struggles mightily to get above 180 deg oil temp (like 30 miles or more), and I've been running a 9:1 2110 with iron jugs. If a guy had a VW thermostat and dog-house, then the temperature should build rapidly enough to provide some useful heat reasonably quickly.

Using the exhaust heat is really an elegant solution, if the flaws in the design can be worked out. Taking the intake air from the cabin behind the seats (with a blower fan), and routing it into the heater boxes, then through some ducts running inside the cabin (if possible), and discharging in the foot wells would be great. Doing this in addition to the oil cooler would probably be enough for even Mike up in Quebec. As far as Alan's original question- running the heat through a PVC pipe insulated with 1/2" or 3/4" wall Armaflex, and then painting (with the special Armaflex paint) to encapsulate it, and boxing the whole thing off with some sheet-metal under the sills to keep out water and grime- would probably work, but I've never tried it.

But.... a new gasoline heater really is simple, compact, and throws a lot of heat. It's not cheap, but neither are custom heater boxes and exotic oil cooler set-ups. With my car, I can drive comfortably top down on a 20 deg night- if I've got the windows up, the wind deflector in, the gasoline heater on, and I've got the seat heating pad on, and an electric blanket on my lap. I could drive all day long like that. Top up? I don't want to drive the car when there is snow or slush for a variety of reasons- but I don't think the cold would stop me at this point.

42 degrees this evening when I went out somewhere in it. With only one heat gun going it was very good. Not toasty, but fine. i may be able to get away with more insulation and sealing up some air leaks in the rear I have real good window seals . If I had not added the rear drop window it would be good now. but ya live and learn. If I ever do another top I will not have the back window thingy, its more trouble than its worth

Stan, I agree with what you've said. Tom Dewalt was kind enough to give me an Eberspacher BN-2 that he had purchased. It looks like it was in a type3. Yesterday I dismantled it and found it to be in excellent condition, but dirty. Basically, it needs a new glow plug, a good cleaning, and some rewiring due to the glow-plug grounding out and causing a bit of an electrical overdraw. The fuel pump, jet, regulator, fan, all look in excellent shape. The pump and blower run properly too. These units were made really well, even after all these years.

I've got to work on it a little, fab up a combustion exhaust, a couple of ducts, and mount it all and put in a switch. I think I'll also install my Halon system I bought but never installed.

Anyway, the glowplug is a Beru 195 GLS. If anyone has a good one laying about, I would be happy to pay for it plus shipping.

BTW, on topic, a friend of mine had one in a Bug convertible, and said he drove comfortably with the top down into the low thirties. I'm just sayin'!

I have a Bn 2 out in the Shop and it seems to work fine. But I'm looking for another one that the fan only works on to convert into a electric one for the Beetle. I still not sold on gas heaters..

I have no dog in this hunt, but I have to admit that the gasoline heater concept, while doubtlessly cozy, does make me nervous. Ignoring the fire danger for a moment, how is the carbon monoxide issue handled?

It has a exhaust pipe of its own. The air intake draws from cabin air. which is fine as long as the fan runs right. It is suppose to only stop after the thing cools down. That means it best be hot wired straight to the battery.

They are also prone to backfire when they shut off prematurely..

I have several friends who were using gas heaters in cars back in the 60's and 70's, all with never a problem. A couple of 356's, several VW sedans and one girl with a VW bus which we took skiing up-country a lot because it was always so toasty in there (plus you could fit 6 people and all our gear and still have plenty of room).

That bus was one of those with windows all over the place and they never even fogged up when the gas heater was on. Don't know what size it was, but it was blower assisted and put out heat like being in Arruba.

I've never heard of one of my friends ever having any problems with them. Once they're plumbed in and leak free (just normal installation checks) they just sit there and put out lots of heat. You can't beat'em.

gn

Daniel Pip, you've got an off-line Email.