Kevin,
You bring up a good topic. I was reading just recently in Hot VW about taking out the engine tin causing increased temp on engine and it made me think about the 2 holes that were drilled in my fire wall. Think I might tape them over and see if it changes my temp.
Thanks,
BADSPD
kevin question>
Do you have choices of spring rates/dampening for daily driving? Those spring rates might not fly around this mountain. Don't get me wrong I love handling just my car is a daily and I know what the springs would do to my kidneys
Do you have choices of spring rates/dampening for daily driving? Those spring rates might not fly around this mountain. Don't get me wrong I love handling just my car is a daily and I know what the springs would do to my kidneys
Without also knowing the motion ratios, corner weights, and unsprung weights you can't really say much about what ride you'll get just from spring rates. Any rates Kevin gives will only be applicable to his suspension design.
That said, I estimate they probably are on the "sporty" side.
That said, I estimate they probably are on the "sporty" side.
"You do not want to leave off the rear breast tin, nor do you want to cut a large hole in the fire wall. VW and Early Porsche's used the same type of fan shroud. They both pulled air in from vents located at the TOP of the engine bay and pushed out the HOT air through the BOTTOM of the car. If you do either of the things at the back of the motor, your going to be pulling air from the bottom of the car. It will be hotter then the un-spent air at the top of the engine bay.
If your large displacement VW engine is not staying cool, then add a external oil cooler with a fan. It will fix the heat problem.
Kevin is right; you do not want to leave off the rear tin covering the exhaust. What I was talking about was the front breast plate (the one that seals the bellhousing to the front firewall). Air taken from under the car at this point is not appreciably hotter tnan ambient (unlesss you sit idling and not moving for long periods) The simplest way of discovering if your car needs more air intake into the engine compartment is to take some aquarium air line tubing, mount one end on the fan shroud (by the coil will do) and stick the other end in a clear glass of water held by a friend in the passsenger seat. At a stand still there is probably adequate air intake and the water level in the tube is the same as the glass. Now go for a drive; 50, 60, 70 miles/hour and note the water level in the tube. Is it climbing? You have negative air pressure in the engine compartment and the carbs and fan are fighting for air. Extended driving at this point will show high oil and head temps (this is where oil AND head temp gauges come in handy). Yeah, slap another oil cooler on that puppy and oil temps become reasonable, but the heads are still happily cooking themselves to death!!
Pulling the FRONT bellhousing tin off will let enough air into the engine compartment to satisfy both the fan and carbs, but won't keep dirt, plastic bags and other crap out of the engine bay. One solution is to duct air from under the car (with a screen over the intake) and or add some holes up high on the firewall.
Anyone want to know more? Look up any number of threads about cooling in the Performance- Engines/Transmissions forum on the Samba.
If your large displacement VW engine is not staying cool, then add a external oil cooler with a fan. It will fix the heat problem.
Kevin is right; you do not want to leave off the rear tin covering the exhaust. What I was talking about was the front breast plate (the one that seals the bellhousing to the front firewall). Air taken from under the car at this point is not appreciably hotter tnan ambient (unlesss you sit idling and not moving for long periods) The simplest way of discovering if your car needs more air intake into the engine compartment is to take some aquarium air line tubing, mount one end on the fan shroud (by the coil will do) and stick the other end in a clear glass of water held by a friend in the passsenger seat. At a stand still there is probably adequate air intake and the water level in the tube is the same as the glass. Now go for a drive; 50, 60, 70 miles/hour and note the water level in the tube. Is it climbing? You have negative air pressure in the engine compartment and the carbs and fan are fighting for air. Extended driving at this point will show high oil and head temps (this is where oil AND head temp gauges come in handy). Yeah, slap another oil cooler on that puppy and oil temps become reasonable, but the heads are still happily cooking themselves to death!!
Pulling the FRONT bellhousing tin off will let enough air into the engine compartment to satisfy both the fan and carbs, but won't keep dirt, plastic bags and other crap out of the engine bay. One solution is to duct air from under the car (with a screen over the intake) and or add some holes up high on the firewall.
Anyone want to know more? Look up any number of threads about cooling in the Performance- Engines/Transmissions forum on the Samba.
Justin I care about all that but sporty isn't the word. Bone jarring is more like it.
I just KNOW 500 lb springs are crazy for the weight of the car. Imho 200 rear would be my call...and for the front 175 if you want to daily' the car on real world roads.
All perfectly matched do dampers, corner weighted etc. of course.
Even in a race application that 500 lbs seems like total overkill. Am I crazy here?
I just KNOW 500 lb springs are crazy for the weight of the car. Imho 200 rear would be my call...and for the front 175 if you want to daily' the car on real world roads.
All perfectly matched do dampers, corner weighted etc. of course.
Even in a race application that 500 lbs seems like total overkill. Am I crazy here?
I run 550 pound springs on my track Miata (and Koni racing shocks), but would never consider running anything close to that on my IM. With a kafer bar in the back, roll bar welded to the pan, and Koni shocks, she's already seriously stiff. No flex anywhere when I go over railroad tracks!
exactly. I used 550/450 on my WRX autocross car. Perfect for the track. Just made my kidneys ache in the real world.
I can totally see how this system would rock G force. 0 body roll.
Imagine having a tighter ratio steering box and a limited slip. This Mendeola set up could be a giant killer on the track. Maybe keep up with an Atom'...
The hot set up would be to have 2 seperate set ups..street dampers/track and different springs. It's not like your changing McPherson struts. I would be easy to do the switch
I mean bottom line it's an awesome system. Totally envious. Your the man Kevin. Top shelf... Be nice to have some options though when ordering
I can totally see how this system would rock G force. 0 body roll.
Imagine having a tighter ratio steering box and a limited slip. This Mendeola set up could be a giant killer on the track. Maybe keep up with an Atom'...
The hot set up would be to have 2 seperate set ups..street dampers/track and different springs. It's not like your changing McPherson struts. I would be easy to do the switch
I mean bottom line it's an awesome system. Totally envious. Your the man Kevin. Top shelf... Be nice to have some options though when ordering
Sorry guys and gals, been wrenching a lot, and not much time for this stuff....
As for the spring rates, we did a lot of testing and found this to be a good middle to sporty shock set up. However if it is too hard we offer one revalve and spring replacement at no charge. We spent a bunch of time tuning shocks and coils to get the best handling, as that was our preference.
Now here is a little something I built up tonight in 3-3.5 hours. Yes it totaly removable...... :)
As for the spring rates, we did a lot of testing and found this to be a good middle to sporty shock set up. However if it is too hard we offer one revalve and spring replacement at no charge. We spent a bunch of time tuning shocks and coils to get the best handling, as that was our preference.
Now here is a little something I built up tonight in 3-3.5 hours. Yes it totaly removable...... :)
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stout.
What your saying is sort of a 'compromise'. Personally I'm not willing to compromise anything. If I go to the track I want TRACK SET UP. If I'm on the street I want DRIVEABILITY. I'm so not into 'firm' overly stiff road cars...I def' want sporty but leaning a bit more to 'cush' side of motoring. You know the kind. A car that I can drive briskly from SF to Encinitas on old 1 and not end up on the C'Practers table for a week.
2 questions Kevin>
Besides the shop where did you do your testing with the current set up ie track..back roads etc
How many choices of springs? You say it's FOX SHOCK..I take it the springs are too...and they offer a few options. Maybe you can come up with a list of FOX's spring rates. I'm thinking something more in the range of 150-200 lb range (F/R) for daily's to start
I'm seriously considering this set up to go with my IRS rear. If I can match F/R springs/shocks I think it should be plenty sporty/plush for me
...and by adding all this engineering goodness to my IM it should drive up the value of the car instantly.
What your saying is sort of a 'compromise'. Personally I'm not willing to compromise anything. If I go to the track I want TRACK SET UP. If I'm on the street I want DRIVEABILITY. I'm so not into 'firm' overly stiff road cars...I def' want sporty but leaning a bit more to 'cush' side of motoring. You know the kind. A car that I can drive briskly from SF to Encinitas on old 1 and not end up on the C'Practers table for a week.
2 questions Kevin>
Besides the shop where did you do your testing with the current set up ie track..back roads etc
How many choices of springs? You say it's FOX SHOCK..I take it the springs are too...and they offer a few options. Maybe you can come up with a list of FOX's spring rates. I'm thinking something more in the range of 150-200 lb range (F/R) for daily's to start
I'm seriously considering this set up to go with my IRS rear. If I can match F/R springs/shocks I think it should be plenty sporty/plush for me
...and by adding all this engineering goodness to my IM it should drive up the value of the car instantly.
Besides the shop where did you do your testing with the current set up ie track..back roads etc......
Yes, we also ran on a few tracks with the Porsche club of America (I'm an instructor and we get to bring other then Porsche cars out at times). We did a lot of G-meter testing.
How many choices of springs? You say it's FOX SHOCK..I take it the springs are too...and they offer a few options. Maybe you can come up with a list of FOX's spring rates. I'm thinking something more in the range of 150-200 lb range (F/R) for daily's to start......
The springs are 10 inch by 2.5 diameter and can be purchased from many different makers. Fox does not make springs. I think you should drive my car first before you go too crazy building two set ups. If a shock is propperly tuned to the car and spring rates, it will not only ride good but handle well also. I think you'll find we did not comprimize very much either way.
...and by adding all this engineering goodness to my IM it should drive up the value of the car instantly..... YES IT WILL!!!!
Yes, we also ran on a few tracks with the Porsche club of America (I'm an instructor and we get to bring other then Porsche cars out at times). We did a lot of G-meter testing.
How many choices of springs? You say it's FOX SHOCK..I take it the springs are too...and they offer a few options. Maybe you can come up with a list of FOX's spring rates. I'm thinking something more in the range of 150-200 lb range (F/R) for daily's to start......
The springs are 10 inch by 2.5 diameter and can be purchased from many different makers. Fox does not make springs. I think you should drive my car first before you go too crazy building two set ups. If a shock is propperly tuned to the car and spring rates, it will not only ride good but handle well also. I think you'll find we did not comprimize very much either way.
...and by adding all this engineering goodness to my IM it should drive up the value of the car instantly..... YES IT WILL!!!!
actually I was only planning on one set up. I was only saying after a few decades of driving... it's either one or the other (or both if your inclined). If I was a racy type of person I'd buy your existing set up. Typical 99% of the driving public will want something more tame
The one I'll use will be for the typical backroads of America. You know the kind. Awesome scenery, wildlife scampering about....but haven't been repaved in 40 years. Real world
I'm pretty sure I don't need 500 lb springs for that. Nahh. More like close to (or slightly higher) stock #s but with superior dampening. That's just me. Who knows maybe everyone else want's the showroom rates.
I'm betting on NO at the SOC. Speculating I think I can honestly say a good part of the membership here is out for sporty cruising type of fun..Just saying
The one I'll use will be for the typical backroads of America. You know the kind. Awesome scenery, wildlife scampering about....but haven't been repaved in 40 years. Real world
I'm pretty sure I don't need 500 lb springs for that. Nahh. More like close to (or slightly higher) stock #s but with superior dampening. That's just me. Who knows maybe everyone else want's the showroom rates.
I'm betting on NO at the SOC. Speculating I think I can honestly say a good part of the membership here is out for sporty cruising type of fun..Just saying
Great roll cage setup, Kevin. You say that's removable? What's the story there? SCCA has a rule book on this?
And how hard is it to put in/take out the roll bars? One man or two? Or more?
Again, all props on this build.
And how hard is it to put in/take out the roll bars? One man or two? Or more?
Again, all props on this build.
Remember that the angle of the spring drastically effects the spring rate.
Straight up/down is 100% rate, but cant it over at 45 degrees (if I recall correctly) and you're down to 50%. So your 400 lbs spring now becomes a 200 pound effective rate. Even a few degrees begins to make an immediate difference in rate.
Got to be careful because what will work on one car with a vertical spring mount will not be the same as a car with the springs canted at a substantial angle. That would definately be an apples and oranges comparison
Just FYI.
angela
Straight up/down is 100% rate, but cant it over at 45 degrees (if I recall correctly) and you're down to 50%. So your 400 lbs spring now becomes a 200 pound effective rate. Even a few degrees begins to make an immediate difference in rate.
Got to be careful because what will work on one car with a vertical spring mount will not be the same as a car with the springs canted at a substantial angle. That would definately be an apples and oranges comparison
Just FYI.
angela
yup with angle' you gain leverage.
I'd like to see some solid data on that though. No sense speculating
Remember this is a 5 0 0 lb spring. That' rate is typically what race cars that weigh nearly twice as much use on the track
I'd like to see some solid data on that though. No sense speculating
Remember this is a 5 0 0 lb spring. That' rate is typically what race cars that weigh nearly twice as much use on the track
Hello, Ed
Yes it is spec legal for most all road race organizations. It is a one man remove and install, as it is light for what it is. It is made out of 1.5 inch .095 wall chromoly. I ran a bar between the frame rails behind the rear seat area to ancor the rear. The two uprights at both sides go down to the frame also, as does the front kicker. I think I'm safe to say that if I do ever go on my lid, the worse part is going to be un-latching the seat belts..... The Cage bolts in front and rear and uses bar connectors on the main hoop...
Angela,
Is there no end to your vst knowledge of cars and performance equipment???? All I have to say is "Dam Chick" :)
Barne,
I think the best thing for you to do is drive my car. You'll find it rides very nicely. You have to understand that when it comes to shock and spring combos. Fox Racing's top engineer is one of our best friends. Within a day at the track we were able to obtain a ride quality and performance that is best compaired to modern day sports cars. Great ride with a progressive shock valving allowing for great ride when just cruising, however when more agressive driving is undertaken, the shocks step up to the chalange....
Yes it is spec legal for most all road race organizations. It is a one man remove and install, as it is light for what it is. It is made out of 1.5 inch .095 wall chromoly. I ran a bar between the frame rails behind the rear seat area to ancor the rear. The two uprights at both sides go down to the frame also, as does the front kicker. I think I'm safe to say that if I do ever go on my lid, the worse part is going to be un-latching the seat belts..... The Cage bolts in front and rear and uses bar connectors on the main hoop...
Angela,
Is there no end to your vst knowledge of cars and performance equipment???? All I have to say is "Dam Chick" :)
Barne,
I think the best thing for you to do is drive my car. You'll find it rides very nicely. You have to understand that when it comes to shock and spring combos. Fox Racing's top engineer is one of our best friends. Within a day at the track we were able to obtain a ride quality and performance that is best compaired to modern day sports cars. Great ride with a progressive shock valving allowing for great ride when just cruising, however when more agressive driving is undertaken, the shocks step up to the chalange....
yeah I'm still not buyin it. I gotta have lower spring rates for serious back roads. Maybe around town your set up will be OK..enuf' if you can't offer and different spring package then there's nothing I can do
We wound up with 450's on the rear of the spyder but they are signficantly canted.
Started out with something like 200's but they were wrong, wrong wrong, moved up until we got it right. Think we wound up with 300's on the front.
Kevin - I gotta know this weird stuff - otherwise none of the guys here would talk to me and my weird cars would never run - LOL!
angela
Started out with something like 200's but they were wrong, wrong wrong, moved up until we got it right. Think we wound up with 300's on the front.
Kevin - I gotta know this weird stuff - otherwise none of the guys here would talk to me and my weird cars would never run - LOL!
angela