Vintage Speed muffler heat

Do you have any open areas in your engine compartment that would allow hot air from underneath to be sucked up into your fan ? That compartment should be totally sealed off where the only air to your fan comes in thru the grill in your engine compartment lid.  Also how accurate is your temp gauge ?..............Bruce

Yah, I am sealed off and I do need to get a thermometer to check the oil temp. Just as a thought, I was wondering the impact of having that super hot stainless muffler giving off heat down below. It has to be contributing to some point. Hoping to get feedback from other users too.

Brian

Yeah, they tend to get a little hot back there when sitting in stop-and-go traffic on a hot day, no bout a doubt it.

First, you have no idea what the real oil temperature is, reading that bar-graph temp gauge with no real numbers on it.  Neither do the rest of us.  BUT!  You can calibrate it (at least a little).....  So here's what WE do:

Go to Bed Bath and Beyond (don't forget your discount coupon!) or Walmart and get a good-quality baking/candy thermometer with a scale that shows 212º somewhere mid-scale and with a probe that is at least 8" long.  Calibrate THAT by sticking it in a coffee cup full of boiling water - it should read 212º (you did buy an adjustable one, right?).  Analog or digital makes no difference (although the digital ones, if calibrated right, are faster reading).  If the one you got is not adjustable, then write down the difference and extrapolate for the next steps.

Stick it down the dipstick hole and find out what the real temperature of your oil is when your gauge is at 3/4 scale.  Watch out for spinning things when it's running!

180º - 210º is fine.

215º - 220º is going up a long steep hill when it's really hot out and you should watch it.

220º - 230º is time to pull over and let things cool off for 15 minutes.

Over 230º is DON'T DRIVE IT!

Once you know what your temp gauge is trying to tell you, you could even mark the face somewhere around 215º as a reminded (I used a red Sharpie.  My son is paranoid about that little red mark, but it never, ever gets up there).

If you have all of the requisite heat shields in place AND the air vanes in the fan shroud AND the bellows thermostat to make the vanes work, AND an external, fan-assisted oil cooler in there, then using a VS Superflow muffler shouldn't present a problem, but others on here have them (I do not - I have a Berg system) so I'll let them tell of their experience with their Super-Flow systems.

Good luck.  Think of this as a "learning about little clown cars" experience!

I have a Vintage Speed Superflow muffler on my 2024cc stroker engine and have had no problems with overheating.

I'm in Sacramento, so no stranger to central valley heat, although I usually don't drive the Speedster when it's over 85. I DO have an external fan-assisted oil cooler mounted in the rear wheel well. (And I do have heater boxes, too.)

My gauge usually settles slightly over halfway at worst - 95-degree heat, stop-and-go driving. It used to go well above that before we moved the oil cooler from where it was originally mounted (in the compartment in front of the engine) to the wheel well.

But that's just MY gauge. The Chinese repop gauges vary a lot, as do the temp sensor units. And where the sensor is plumbed into your engine will change the readings, too (there are a few mounting options). It's best to do what Gordon suggests - using an accurate thermometer in the dipstick hole, find out just where the gauge reads when the oil is at a few critical temperatures. Then, you'll know what the gauge is really telling you.

Most of our engines will run a little hotter when stopped in traffic. The engine's fan blows air down past the cylinders and under the car. Under way, that hot air gets left behind. Stopped, it surrounds the back of the car in hot air which the engine then breathes in.

If you really are running too hot, I doubt the muffler is at fault. There are many possible causes, but if you're also backfiring, the jetting could be too lean or your timing might be too far advanced. Checking the timing is the easiest place to start - it shouldn't be over 30 degrees at max advance (check it at 3500 rpm).

Let us know how things work out.

Thanks Mitch,

I took it to Gervais to install my new magnaspark II and to give it an overall tune because of the backfiring. The car ran noticeably better but still is popping off at any deceleration over 3300 rpm. He blamed it on the smallish  34 Weber’s. 1600 - 110 cam - 34 ict’s. I am concerned that the muffler, which is rated up to 150 hp Is too free flowing. It all started when I installed it.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Yeah, they tend to get a little hot back there when sitting in stop-and-go traffic on a hot day, no bout a doubt it.

First, you have no idea what the real oil temperature is, reading that bar-graph temp gauge with no real numbers on it.  Neither do the rest of us.  BUT!  You can calibrate it (at least a little).....  So here's what WE do:

Go to Bed Bath and Beyond (don't forget your discount coupon!) or Walmart and get a good-quality baking/candy thermometer with a scale that shows 212º somewhere mid-scale and with a probe that is at least 8" long.  Calibrate THAT by sticking it in a coffee cup full of boiling water - it should read 212º (you did buy an adjustable one, right?).  Analog or digital makes no difference (although the digital ones, if calibrated right, are faster reading).  If the one you got is not adjustable, then write down the difference and extrapolate for the next steps.

Stick it down the dipstick hole and find out what the real temperature of your oil is when your gauge is at 3/4 scale.  Watch out for spinning things when it's running!

180º - 210º is fine.

215º - 220º is going up a long steep hill when it's really hot out and you should watch it.

220º - 230º is time to pull over and let things cool off for 15 minutes.

Over 230º is DON'T DRIVE IT!

Once you know what your temp gauge is trying to tell you, you could even mark the face somewhere around 215º as a reminded (I used a red Sharpie.  My son is paranoid about that little red mark, but it never, ever gets up there).

If you have all of the requisite heat shields in place AND the air vanes in the fan shroud AND the bellows thermostat to make the vanes work, AND an external, fan-assisted oil cooler in there, then using a VS Superflow muffler shouldn't present a problem, but others on here have them (I do not - I have a Berg system) so I'll let them tell of their experience with their Super-Flow systems.

Good luck.  Think of this as a "learning about little clown cars" experience!

I guess I had read here many times, with a low hp 1600 -  an external cooler was not necessary. I have the oil filter and sump, but I know that doesn’t keep it cool. BB and Beyond it is! Thanks for the input Gordon.

I do know one thing that will cause backfiring on trailing throttle is air leaks in the exhaust. I also recall that some of the flanges (maybe on my heater boxes?) had to be customized to fit right.

You may want to look into that.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

I do know one thing that will cause backfiring on trailing throttle is air leaks in the exhaust. I also recall that some of the flanges (maybe on my heater boxes?) had to be customized to fit right.

You may want to look into that.

 

I have had the exhaust on and off four times now. Vintage has a flange that is canted 45 deg. on the muffler (No heaters) and  there is an adapter plate so the j tube flange, which is horizontal can be bolted up to that. It has leaked since day one. Vintage sent more flange gaskets and this time I put a little extra oomph into it.  I may end up taking it to A1 and have him fab some new pipes from the muffler to match the j tubes. I believe @Will Hesch has done the same with his old VS exhaust. Feeling around when it is warming up, I can’t find a leak now.

OK, tried something different. A family member ran the revs up and I could easily feel that the adapter flange is still leaking. Boy that sucka gets hot!. My oil lines run under the wrapped j pipes by 3”.  I could prolly find some heat shield to protect them as they pass under the pipe. Hello A1, I got a job for you ....

You're on the right track now. 

Yup, he is.

When I was sync'ing my carbs it was around 80F outside and I was wearing shorts and topsiders.  Standing behind the car on either side (as you go from carb to carb, back and forth) I ended up with a really good "sunburn" on both shins by the time I was done.

Yup, there's a LOT of heat back there.

Gordon (the sunburned-shin guy from Mass.)

Oh!, and I wouldn't get to excited about the oil lines being 3" away from the J-tubes.

Mine are even closer than that and I can hold the oil temp to 205º, no matter the outside air temp (on a 2,110) but if you want to install a heat shield for them it will always help.

I put on an A1 and haven't looked back...

Gordon Nichols posted:

Yup, he is.

When I was sync'ing my carbs it was around 80F outside and I was wearing shorts and topsiders.  Standing behind the car on either side (as you go from carb to carb, back and forth) I ended up with a really good "sunburn" on both shins by the time I was done.

Yup, there's a LOT of heat back there.

Gordon (the sunburned-shin guy from Mass.)

Oh!, and I wouldn't get to excited about the oil lines being 3" away from the J-tubes.

Mine are even closer than that and I can hold the oil temp to 205º, no matter the outside air temp (on a 2,110) but if you want to install a heat shield for them it will always help.

Watch out Gordo, there isn’t a lot of meat on those shins! As I was “Feeling” for the leak, my hand brushed the muffler a couple of times and now the Vintage Speed logo is branded onto my knuckles ...

Will Hesch posted:

I put on an A1 and haven't looked back...

Hey Will,

I had the opportunity to drive @9971 new JPS Speedster w/A1 double center exit exhaust. Sounded throaty and looked awesome. I imagine these are all sidewinders?

Lotta heat back there!   On top of the cylinder heat (which, on my car is directed right out the back) I have dual exhaust that exits to the rear right behind each wheel, just where you want to place your foot when adjusting the carbs.   

At least I got a lead on my summer tan.   

Brian, as far as I know every system Tiger builds is a sidewinder regardless of where the exit point/s are. Mine has only one muffler on the passenger side.

And...I get tons of compliments on the sound, mine exits with a single center pipe.

One last question. Is yours a stainless system or steel?  I will be talking to Tiger soon enough, although he is a very busy person.  Thanks Will!

Brian in Murrieta

RacerX posted:

Thanks Mitch,

I took it to Gervais to install my new magnaspark II and to give it an overall tune because of the backfiring. The car ran noticeably better but still is popping off at any deceleration over 3300 rpm. He blamed it on the smallish  34 Weber’s. 1600 - 110 cam - 34 ict’s. I am concerned that the muffler, which is rated up to 150 hp Is too free flowing. It all started when I installed it.

The exhaust is too big for a 1600. It allows the hot gasses to spend too much time in the system, resulting in too much heat transfer, and is also the cause of the backfiring on deceleration. It's like putting carburetors or heads that are way too big on an engine- it can't begin to take advantage of the airspeed they are capable of until the upper part of the rpm range.

                            "It all started when I installed it"

That tells you everything right there. Your engine should have a system with 1 3/8" primary tubes (will make power to 6,000 rpm on a 1600)- even 1 1/2" is technically too big, but provides more airspeed than what's on there now. Mount an exhaust the proper size and I'll bet your problem goes away, bottom end/lower midrange torque improves and mileage goes up slightly too. Hope this helps. Al

Al, you're probably right about the appropriate exhaust diameter for a 1600, and i dunno exactly what @RacerX has, but the Vintage Speed on mine uses 1.5" pipes. I think the difference between the 'Superflow' Vintage Speed muffler and the 'normal' one is fewer internal baffles, not the size of the tubing.

The stinky part is the owner at VS advised that the Superflow would be fine with the 1600 until I upgrade the engine. Might have to put the VS aside and get something more suitable until that time. Any suggestions?

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Al, you're probably right about the appropriate exhaust diameter for a 1600, and i dunno exactly what @RacerX has, but the Vintage Speed on mine uses 1.5" pipes. I think the difference between the 'Superflow' Vintage Speed muffler and the 'normal' one is fewer internal baffles, not the size of the tubing.

 

I deduced the primary tubing was too big, Mitch, by the fact that in Brian's initial post he mentioned he would soon be moving up to a 2110 and was advised "to get the Superflow and that would suffice for now". Even after looking at the VS website I can't figure out exactly what he has either, but I do know that any exhaust that works on a 2110 that goes any amount above 4500 rpm will only work on the wildest of 1600's.

As Brian mentioned in his 3rd (about 1/3 down the page) post, the 1600 has 34 ICT's, a 110 (I'm assuming that's an Engle W110- will rev to 55-5700 or so rpm) cam and probably stock dual port heads. His words concerning the exhaust at the end of the post- " It all started when I installed it".

I bought the Superflow Replica exhaust. CORRECTED: Advertised as 1 1/2” system. I really think I need to pull it and put it aside for now. I just have to find a 1600 exhaust that will fit the Replicas. Maybe Greg at Vintage Motorcars can offer up something. There are a lot of low dollar alternatives from the aftermarket world but they don’t cater to this market. A1 might have an option too. That size chart is a handy tool 👍. Thanks ALB

A 1 1/2" system shouldn't be causing the issues you're having; although it is technically too big, lots of guys use them on smaller engines and they run "ok", the only thing being the slight loss of bottom end/lower midrange torque (and slightly lousier mileage). I'm guessing that while working ok on a 2 liter + engine, if you've got the exhaust leaks sealed up, the 1600 just doesn't produce enough volume to fill the (somewhat oversized) can properly and that causes the slow movement through it (causing the heat transfer and hot running?) and the exhaust pulses also actually draw air in, causing the backfiring. The engine may be running a little rich as well, aggravating the situation?

Of course, it there are still exhaust leaks, then those need to be fixed first before you can diagnose anything. Goodnight everybody.

RacerX posted:

I bought the Superflow Replica exhaust. CORRECTED: Advertised as 1 1/2” system. I really think I need to pull it and put it aside for now. I just have to find a 1600 exhaust that will fit the Replicas. Maybe Greg at Vintage Motorcars can offer up something. There are a lot of low dollar alternatives from the aftermarket world but they don’t cater to this market. A1 might have an option too. That size chart is a handy tool 👍. Thanks ALB

The Tri-mil is a very basic exhaust and works on the smaller motors. There is a chrome version available.

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/...tri-mil-euro2tip.htm

Brian, my entire system (except heater boxes) is stainless and is 1 1/2".

Pat Downs specced it for the 2110 he built for me.

I must add that my engine still backfired (like it did with the VS exhaust) until Jim Ansite re-jetted the Webers and installed a John Wilhoit BR8 re-curved distributor. I can't make the car backfire now...unless I install a Made in Turkey Bosch condenser...

Will

There are no baffles at all inside a Vintage Speed “muffler”. It’s a big empty can. The tubes that enter from either side of the can run inside to the opposite end and dump at the far end of the chamber. The exhaust fills the can and goes out similarly sized tailpipes. The exhaust is quieted by the variably pulsed sound waves bouncing off each other and around  the walls inside.

Again, back to exhaust tuning theory— the only “extracting” happening in this exhaust comes from the suction created by the paired pipes (1-2 and 3-4 in this instance), cylinders which are not firing 360° opposite one another in the firing order. They are therefore not ideal for helping each other (ideal would be to pair 1-3 & 2-4) to pull gas from each cylinder as 4 equal length tubes together in one collector would. Those pairs run down the inside of the pipe inside the muffler and dump, where the gasses expand rapidly due to the reduction in pressure. There’s some extraction happening there as well, but it isn’t really tuned in a meaningful way.

It works to one extent or another if the primary and secondary pipes are sized ideally for the displacement of the engine.

The problem with exhaust in our cars is with the packaging—  the tight confines in the back of the car limits what is possible. Even an A1 sidewinder is far from ideal. If you get a tailor’s tape out and measure the length of each primary tube on an A1, you’ll find that they vary up to a foot in length. An ideally sized 4/1 exhaust header has tubes that are an equal and specific length.

... but even imperfectly designed, an A1 works, as does the Vintage Speed setup (to a lesser degree). The difference is, the A1 is a lot more forgiving (as Al pointed out), and can make a lot more power.

If you fix your leaks (and probably rejet), you’ll be able to tame the backfiring on trailing throttle. But you are 100% correct— your Vintage Speed setup would work much better on a bigger engine... but not as well as a sidewinder. Yours will always look better.

Everything is a tradeoff— you give up a bit of this to get a bit of that. You pick your poison. Forewarned is forearmed.

Thanks Stan,

The car had a poorly fab’d sidewinder when I bought it. Unfortunately the muffler was mounted too low and it became a skid plate. I think for now I will pick up a Tri Mil unit. I see most of those are still 1 1/2 pipe, rather than the 1 3/8 that was suggested.

Will Hesch posted:

Brian, my entire system (except heater boxes) is stainless and is 1 1/2".

Pat Downs specced it for the 2110 he built for me.

I must add that my engine still backfired (like it did with the VS exhaust) until Jim Ansite re-jetted the Webers and installed a John Wilhoit BR8 re-curved distributor. I can't make the car backfire now...unless I install a Made in Turkey Bosch condenser...

Will

That’s not reassuring! Is Jim your local guru? 

Robert M posted:

RacerX posted:

I bought the Superflow Replica exhaust. CORRECTED: Advertised as 1 1/2” system. I really think I need to pull it and put it aside for now. I just have to find a 1600 exhaust that will fit the Replicas. Maybe Greg at Vintage Motorcars can offer up something. There are a lot of low dollar alternatives from the aftermarket world but they don’t cater to this market. A1 might have an option too. That size chart is a handy tool 👍. Thanks ALB

The Tri-mil is a very basic exhaust and works on the smaller motors. There is a chrome version available.

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/...tri-mil-euro2tip.htm

Robert,

They advertise them as 1 1/2” which is the same as the Vintage system. I guess the difference is in the muffler size. You don’t have this big empty can waiting to be filled.  Hopefully this would work as advertised. Did some searching in here about the Tri-mil. It seems that SoCal imports used to sell one that Kirk at Vintage Speedsters used. It was primarily for a Bus, as the tips were 4 inches lower and would clear the rear apron. I have a message into Greg to try and find a lead.

Brian, yes, Jim Ansite is our local guru of air-cooled. www.ansiteinc.com

RacerX posted:

Robert M posted:

RacerX posted:

I bought the Superflow Replica exhaust. CORRECTED: Advertised as 1 1/2” system. I really think I need to pull it and put it aside for now. I just have to find a 1600 exhaust that will fit the Replicas. Maybe Greg at Vintage Motorcars can offer up something. There are a lot of low dollar alternatives from the aftermarket world but they don’t cater to this market. A1 might have an option too. That size chart is a handy tool 👍. Thanks ALB

The Tri-mil is a very basic exhaust and works on the smaller motors. There is a chrome version available.

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/...tri-mil-euro2tip.htm

Robert,

They advertise them as 1 1/2” which is the same as the Vintage system. I guess the difference is in the muffler size. You don’t have this big empty can waiting to be filled.  Hopefully this would work as advertised. Did some searching in here about the Tri-mil. It seems that SoCal imports used to sell one that Kirk at Vintage Speedsters used. It was primarily for a Bus, as the tips were 4 inches lower and would clear the rear apron. I have a message into Greg to try and find a lead.

That's the one I'm talking about. @Troy Sloan has bought quite a few of these and may know where to get one as well.

Good lead Robert. Pm sent ...