Vintage Speedsters: Two Stars

Not like we, on here, haven't been telling you to do an acceptance inspection and 2-3 day acceptance drive for the past ten years or so, have we?

Plus Gordon's inspection / acceptance list that ought to be in the knowledge base on here. "Speedster check list gold."

Gordon, where is that listed?

It's in the knowledge base....

 

Here it is:

 

https://www.speedsterowners.com...acceptance-checklist

 

 

Good, Paul---glad to know it's in there. Makes a great springtime check list before the driving season starts too.  Thanks.

You would think the manufacturer would have a used that checklist before releasing car number 2500 +?

He clearly doesn't need to. People buy as many as he can build without.

 

This is the strangest industry I've ever seen.

 

Ain't it the truth, Stan!

"You would think the manufacturer would have a used that checklist before releasing car number 2500 +?"

 

You would, wouldn't you?

 

A couple of builders, IM and Beck, seem to have a list like this, because their shipping quality is first rate.  Haven't heard much about delivered cars from Seduction Motorsports, so that, alone, tells me that, sans complaints, they must be shipping some good cars out.  Time and customer reports will tell.

 

At the lower end of the price point spectrum and proof of the "you get what you pay for" corollary, are places like Vintage Speedsters and JPS Motorsports, both of whom we've been following on here for years and seeing spotty quality at times from both.  To their credit, both of them can produce very good cars, just not consistently.

 

IMO, there are a LOT of reasons for this - employee turn-over, base part quality, volume of cars produced in a given time, standardized assembly techniques, a whole bunch of stuff, all of which could benefit just from having them use something like my list as a basis for checking out everything leaving their shops.  In fact, Atlanta Motorsports (or something like that), Troy Sloan and Alan Merklin have all been making good money buying cars and doing the sorting for you.  People are willing, it seems, to pay a few thousand more to get a car they know is not going to give them trouble.

 

This is NOT rocket science.  ANYONE can produce junk and ANYONE can produce good stuff - it's their choice.  Either take the time to build quality in, or test the hell out of it on the pre-delivery end or a trade-off of both, but take the time to produce something that looks like somebody cared about it.    

 

I know - I lived through this once and actually laid down in front of a shipment truck (along with our VP of Quality) to prevent it from leaving with shoddy product from our computer storage company.  At that time, 100% of disk drives shipped were returned as defective and replaced.  5 years later, 95% of what shipped was defect-free.  5 more years later and we had hit seven sigma quality (99.9999997% of all shipments were defect-free for the first quarter of operation). 

 

Scroll down to "Problems Arise: Late 1980s" on here:

 

http://www.referenceforbusines...EMC-Corporation.html

 

But, as Stan says - This is the strangest industry I've ever seen......and it goes back decades.

Well maybe there needs to be a better contract or at least the buyer needs to add more clauses to force a certain quality and even delivery date issues in the contract. Then the builder will/may change his behaviour 

This has been talked about before, and nothing is going to change, at least with Vintage and JPS. They are what they are, put your money down, spin the wheel, and take your chances. Or buy somewhere else.

Yes, that's obvious. But sometimes it's impossible to make the 3,000 mile trip to do the inspection and you go by rave reviews on this list and trust the vendor.

"rave reviews on this list"?

 

Yes, I guess some people have been very happy with their Vintage Speedsters, but others have definitely not been.

 

Agreed, being that far away does make it difficult to oversee or check on the build.

 

Hope you can get those things fixed, and then really enjoy your car.

 

Whose rave reviews? Not mine!

Considering the car I received, my comments here were extremely reserved but certainly not..."rave"

Before I purchased it, I started perusing and commenting here, and there seemed to be a resistance to honest appraisal of Vintage cars, this makes no sense as this hobby needs transparency so new buyers can shop intelligently.

As has been mentioned recently, Kirk's cars can be found for sale all over the internet with only several hundred miles on them, a result of discouraged buyers who aren't up to sorting-out a $30,000 car.

"sometimes it's impossible to make the 3,000 mile trip to do the inspection and you go by rave reviews on this list and trust the vendor."

 

You're spending $25-$30 thousand dollars and you can't make the trip to inspect the product and accept it before shipment????  You receive that unsatisfactory product and as soon as you post of issues you need to sort, the value of that product plummets $10 grand.  Everybody knows, and it takes a long time (and a TON of positive posts) to regain that value as you work through getting parts and service from 3,000 miles away.  Most people seem to just throw up their hands and bail, at a loss, just to be rid of it and that becomes a new project for Troy and Alan to turn around into a quality, satisfying product.  

 

OK, for some of us it might be difficult to fly out there and spend a few days making up a "Punch List" of things to be corrected, but history on here has definitively proven that those who do have significantly fewer issues upon delivery than those who accept the builder's promises at face value.  And the angst generated by a poorly executed build lasts seemingly forever in repeated posts on here (anyone remember Tom DeWalt's coupe?  Or el Frazoo's loose steering coupler?)

 

Don't blame us - we've been warning about this stuff for years and the past posts are there to prove it.

 

Is that 2 stars out of 10?  Lots of SOCer's live near VS and I'm sure would be willing to swing by and take a few pictures and provide comments back to a distant buyer.  Worth a bottle (or case) of Jack Daniel's vs getting a 90% finished car.  Doesn't VS offer a warranty and will reimburse you for having repairs made locally.  Well worth a trip to DrClock in PA!  I hear DrClock's going to need a bigger garage!

I'm one of those that had a GREAT GREAT GREAT experience with my VS right out of the box.  Kirk and Mary were great and allowed me to be as involved as I wanted to be during the build and delivery process.

 

i did fly to LA twice... Right after paint ( I wanted to inspect it before he started the assembly process) , and before he shipped the car.   I did send him a personalized version of the checklist during the build process-- and used it as my acceptance checklist.

 

 Using the checklist  i spent a few days and couple hundred miles shaking down the car.... And Kirk took care of everything identified before he shipped it a few weeks later.  

 

 

In the past 2.5 yrs, other than the light switch which failed, and a starter celenoid which gave me some problems ( and I replaced w/ an IM101).... It's been a reliable nearly daily driver +6 months out of the year ( weather permitting).

 

i do admit, I'm always tinkering with the car to personalize 

 

My only regret was not reaching out to local SOC'ers while there.  Would have been fun!...

 

VS does build great cars...  IMHO.   

 

 

 

That's 2 out of 5, to compare with the recent post awarding VS 5 stars. The car is far from being all bad, and with the outlay of a few bucks and some time it will just what I was looking for. I've had boats and houses built for me and it's always the same, although you always hope it won't be.  

That's why you buy a BECK, IMHO. You don't need to make the 3,000 mile trip. The car is perfect when it arrives, or they'll take the car back and fix it. Just ask Todd Reimer or one of the many other satisfied BECK customers. There's always teething issues, but the builder's willingness to stand behind their work is what is important. 

 

I'd be willing to guess that <20% of Special Edition (or IM) clients ever visit their respective plants.

I appreciate the kudos guys, but I do this as a hobby and I too, make errors it's human nature.

With any hand crafted car there can and will will be issues no matter who the mfgr is , these can arise from being distracted on a particular task, faulty component or simply, builder's brain fart.

Faults happen and will happen no matter how well one tries try to be sure things are A -OK so to speak. Yes Quality control when applied is a plus for both Seller and Buyer and should something go afoul post sale, step up and do whatever it takes to make it right. 

^ I like you a lot, Al. But I keep hearing the "any handcrafted product will have problems" argument when this comes up, and it just doesn't ring true. These are the same problems guys experience at least 50% of the time. That's "pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey" accurate.

 

Every guy who buys one of your cars seems to be satisfied. There's no "well, Alan is building a handmade product, after all" codas to your satisfied customers. My wife makes homemade food-- I'd not consider her a 5-star cook if 50% of her meals were inedible or left people with food poisoning.

 

They're not complicated cars (this was the appeal in the '50s and it still is today), and the builds are repeated over and over and over. It's the builder's employee's job- to build this one type of simple car. A guy shouldn't have to fly out to make sure that car runs without catching fire, or that ALL of the surfaces are painted. 

A builder, even with the best of intentions is subject to parts suppliers that are not always delivering parts that one can put their trust in.  

So you end up with part failures caused by BAD R&D or BAD quality control.

I know those two issues too well!

If all the stars align and it was built on a Tuesday then your good.

But to do that for each part including tranny's, engines, speedo, etc etc is at times uncontrollable for the builder.

The issue then falls on the buyer to not be left holding the bag for the extra expenses.  Thus the need for a contract that reflect those issues realistically for both parties involved. 

I do not agree with any of that (other than the necessity of a good, well-written contract with the builder).  If I did, then it would be OK with me for people to expect shoddy quality from IM or Beck, and they simply don't, because if issues happen with IM or Beck then they quickly stand behind their product and correct it.  

 

But even that approach is flawed, because it means less profit to the builder as they have to eat the cost of corrections.  If a builder sees poor quality parts coming in his door or (much worse) his customers complain about poor quality parts, then he can buy better stuff from elsewhere to keep overall product quality up and that part cost will be infinitesimal to the final cost of the product.  He is not "subject to parts suppliers that are not always delivering parts that one can put their trust in" because he is buying their parts.  If the stuff is junk, HE CAN BUY BETTER STUFF ELSEWHERE. The builder is the buyer who defines, in their purchase contract, the quality of the parts coming in their door.  If they don't have a return clause in their parts contracts with their suppliers for delivered parts not meeting their quality requirements, either they don't care or they think they can just push poor quality parts onto their customers and "they'll just take them" as many of us have done with the abysmal quality of Chinese-sourced, VDO-Reproduction dash gauges.

 

VS should be producing (and buying) enough volume to get decent parts from their suppliers.  Yes, those better parts might cost a bit more, but parts cost of these cars should be somewhere in the realm of 35% (OR LESS) of total product cost (assuming normal uplift to retail pricing) so the parts impact shouldn't be that dear.

 

I said this up above and it bears repeating:  You can either build quality into your product as you go along ($$), test quality into it after the build is completed ($$$), or eat the cost of corrections after delivery to make it "right" ($$$$).  That is a continuum that you decide where to place yourself on (as a builder), based on what costs (AND RISK) you're willing to take on.

OK, look.......

 

Product quality is a function of what the builder/provider is willing to take upon themselves as a representation of what they are willing to be noted for, given the market risk they're willing to endure.

 

What's that mean?

 

Well, if a person feels "OK" with producing something that 'just gets by' as a product, with a lot of warts showing but customers who are willing to buy, feel cheated and throw away their purchase as "junk", then that's fine.  I worked for a company which did just that, but the employees didn't agree with that philosophy and chose to do better - a LOT better.  SO much better, that we were the envy of several different industries (including automotive) for a decade.

 

On the other hand, if the build/provider truly wishes to offer a product that has just as much quality in it as anyone can possibly produce (or more), then they will figure out a way to do just that AND do it within the market constraints of their target market.  They will also be in a position to demand a premium price for their higher-quality product (for my company, that was 3X-5X going industry rates and our customers were happy to pay them).

 

What's all that mean?  If you want to build junk, then some people will buy it, then complain (publicly) about it.   You'll keep reducing your prices to try to maintain sales volume, you'll have to further reduce quality with your lower sales price and your market will dry up.  

 

If you put as much quality into your product as you possibly can (within the market constraints of their your market) then you can capitalize on that quality and charge a premium for it and people will be happy to pay that premium.  You can also minimize overall production and (especially) support costs, charge a product quality premium and customers will be happy to pay it.

 

And all I have to do is point at the differences between IM and VS.

 

Or Apple and Android

 

Or Cadillac and Chevy 

 

We've all heard that both IM and Beck have entered into relationships to get better parts, like the new 356 reproduction gauges from VDO (to mention just one of many examples).  That is a terrific deal and something that I think came from desperation on the part of IM and Beck of having to deal with numerous customer complaints.  BOTH of those build houses have a certain level of quality in mind when they build a car and both seem to make it happen.  Maybe some of that comes from buying only from know, good suppliers for parts and defining the quality level of incoming parts for their builds, maybe some of that comes from driving the finished car around for a week after build completion, and maybe some of it comes from doing a little of both but, whatever - both have figured out what it takes in their own shop to get acceptable product quality out the door.

 

There is no magic to this process and many, many companies have mastered it.  You have to set your goals and figure out how to attain them.

Gordon, all your points bring out the fact that the higher end builders are diligent to get suppliers which produce better parts, and they do their best to be the quality control persons before the put it on the car.  Yet, all is good in theory but due to some Chinese parts manufacturers inconsistencies or even other suppliers inconsistencies, it is not always possible for even the best builders to source out or do what you are asking and occasionally you get a bad door closure or VDO produces a dud gauge.  Builders do their best but there are always uncontrollable issues based on parts....

Ask me how I know... Ray 

You do you know, Ray?

 

I'm waiting for someone here to pipe up and tell him he is too picky to expect a car that was color sanded or that didn't need paint touched up. Or that he misunderstood that he would get a car that has working brakes or sits level or doesn't need alignment.  And why would anybody be such a jerk as to expect his hood or doors to open and not rattle.  Or his seats not to have superglue on them or that his oil cooler bungs wouldn't be stripped because someone put straight pipe thread fittings in a tapered pipe bung and now leaks. Some people just expect too damn much.

 

 

None finer than Special Edition.  And I have built new with Vintage Speedster as well. No comparison to quality and service. 

 

Long Post Warning! Get coffee now or click on next comment.

 

I've been through a lot over the past two years getting my brand new VS to run like a 'new' car should. There have been days when I wasn't Kirk's biggest fan.

 

Through it all, I've read many good words here about VS, and I've tried hard to reconcile that with my experience. I think I've learned a lot about the business Kirk runs, the cars he produces, and why he does what he does.

 

First, here's an example of the kind of changes he's seeing in his suppliers' products.

 

From day one, there was obviously something very wrong with the gearing in my car. Even with the extra cost 'freeway flyer' tranny, I was seeing just barely 65 mph at 3500 rpm. The car was pretty much undriveable for long distances on the freeway.

 

But I was here, in sunny Sacramento, and VS was there in LA - a bit too far to make it worth shipping the car back. We ended up pulling the tranny here and found this.

 

 

  

 

 

See, it's got a 3.88 R&P, right? Says so right there on the case - in two places.

 

Well, that was on the outside. When we tore it down, it had a 4:12 R&P and worse, fourth gear was a .92:1, not the stock .89:1. 

 

Was Kirk trying to pull a fast one? After counting to ten a few dozen times, I reluctantly concluded he wasn't. I think he's been using the same suppliers for many years, with relatively good luck for most of that time. How many of these gearboxes has he installed over the years with no complaints because they contained the parts they should have?

 

Should Kirk be checking every car out the door from stem to stern for gaffs like this and for a hundred other potential problems? Well yes, but how many potential customers would he lose if he charged the extra $5K it would cost him to do that?

 

I think they make sure it starts, that the headlights work (at least the first time), drive it around the block, and if it's still running, ship it out the door. I'm guessing they've done some very shrewd math over the years and found it cheaper to fix what breaks after the sale than take the time to do any serious quality control.

 

But that will eventually kill off sales, won't it? Then why does VS sell more cars than all the other builders combined? Kirk is a businessman first, and he seems to have found a business model that's working.

 

My advice for a new buyer looking for the best bang for the buck would still be to buy a VS, after everything I've been through (if you've got another hour, I'll tell you about my engine, too).

 

But here's the big caveat. Have an engine and tranny built by shops you trust, and have Kirk install those bits in your new VS. You'll have a reliable driver, with finish that looks great from 20 feet away, and you'll still spend a lot less than a Beck.

 

Are the more expensive makes built and finished better? Sure. But are they worth the extra money? There's a question with a different answer for every buyer.

 

 

 

 

I have to ask, Mitch- what was up with the engine?

     Okay Mitch, I get what you are saying and agree to a point. When you take time and go thru the expense of visiting there while the car is being built and point out politely things that you want fixed, reasonable things, they should be fixed. When you are 1300 miles away and the things you requested to be fixed were not addressed, not ONE OF THEM.  That excuse goes out the window. It gets to the point where it is just laziness or just plain being burnt out.  Then there are some things like safety issues that aren't addressed that could result in some heavy liability issues you start to wonder what the rest of the car is like that you can't see.

     I'm talking about things like the battery hot lead running thru jagged drilled holes in 3 chassis bulkheads with no grommets. That's just a short time away from a hell of a fire. No wonder people have extinguisher systems. Or brakes that are barely bled.

Well enough said.  Just be very careful before you buy.  You may get lucky or you may not.

I've been advocating for Mitch's suggestion for a long time: buy a roller- no engine, no transaxle.

 

As far as the question: "how many potential customers would he lose if he charged the extra $5K it would cost him to do that?", I'd answer: "probably an amount roughly equal to the customers he'd gain by just building a car that would meet most folks' (minimal) standards".

 

He's the cheapest game in town, so I'm really not sure who the "price-point" competition is. If it's a new Miata, or used Boxster then those people will make poor candidates for these cars anyhow. A fancy dune-buggy with a glorified lawnmower engine, even perfectly constructed isn't going to satisfy 99% of the potential buyers out there. Honking off the remaining 1% by jamming whatever the lowest bidder provides under the deck-lid is just going to reduce the potential customer base to almost zero.

 

This isn't just Vintage Speedster's problem. I bought a turn-key JPS in 2002 that was the most disappointing purchase of my life (and that includes some deeply disappointing purchases). I corrected the issues, but I could not look at the car without being angry, or drive it without feeling sick to my stomach. I can guarantee you that I was not alone in that feeling-- any number of 500 mile eBay cars would argue my point.

 

I have a hard time seeing that as being good for the hobby.

I've had pretty good interactions with Kirk and Mary at VS. Granted, I do not live that far away from their shop.

 

I did get my tranny from Kirk, so I'd be curious to see how it turns out once my build is finished.

 

I am sourcing the engine from someone else (still doing some final research)... but everything I am building out of my garage and getting the parts from Kirk. Plus, I'm upgrading some stuff myself...

 

If anyone needs a person to swing by and check out their build, let me know and I can swing by... I'm there a LOT as I am building mine slowly...

 

 

When I spec'ed out my Beck for the Carlisle build I asked a lot of folks to recommend vendors for those expensive parts that you only want to buy once, particularly engine and transaxle.  The winners were Pat Downs (CB Perf.) on the engine and Rancho (ProStreet) on the tranny.  It was worth whatever extra cost as both have been excellent.  I have had no issues whatsoever with the clutch/tranny since new  (45k miles ago) and the only failure in the engine that is relevant to this conversation is the persistent oil leak due to a porous casting on the internal cooler pedestal.  There is no way that Pat could have predicted that and when discovered, they made it good.  Any other issues with the car have been caused by:

1. Me futzing around where I shouldn't.
2. A poorly rebuilt pedal cluster from the Boys in Brazil.  Carey was red-faced over that one and made it good.  Beck has since moved all production to Bremen, in part to have better control over quality.
3. Issues related to the build at Carlisle.  I think fatigue was a factor there. On the plus side, I found a set of wire cutters and one really big screwdriver when looking for rattles.  They've both come in handy :-D
4. Normal maintenance done by someone (me) that wasn't familiar with these cars in the beginning.

I have had zero electrical issues, and to this day, even with the road rash I've gotten over the years, I get compliments on the paint job.

 

Given the low volume nature of these cars and the variances in parts quality that most of us have complained about, including Carey and Henry, total perfection is not a reasonable expectation.  There are certain things that are within the control of the manufactures (e.g., paint) and poor quality there is not acceptable.  Those manufacturers that truly care will, at the very least, drive the cars for a bit after completion to ferret out initial sorting problems.  Some of the things that I have read about here and in other threads would have been identified and (hopefully) fixed if someone had sent more than 5 minutes with the supposedly completed car.  Certainly that much can be expected.

I love that. It might be my new favorite saying.

 

There are guys that hit it out of the park on their first at bat. I'm not that guy. I'm glad I had a couple of strikes to give before I was finished in this hobby.

 

Mrs. Galat was very, very patient with my penny-pinching efforts to try to get an IM-quality build for short money. I was an idiot-- don't be like stupid-Stan.

 

Buy once, cry once. 

Well said Lane... Ray 

I really don't know if it's possible to get it right the first time.  I solicited everyone here for their expert advice while Natalie was being built by Special Edition and did pretty good.  With that being said, after 5 seasons, I'm still making changes.

Marty, who had his started Speedster first, spec'd out an incredible IM build....and hasn't stopped making changes either.

Then, there's the smart ones like Jim who get it right the first time, drive the wheels off, wreck it, and get it right again.

I think the issue is zen, one must expect less to receive true satisfaction.  I'm in the "can't get no satisfaction" camp...but I try, and I try, and I try try try try try.

Well, I'm on my fourth Intermeccanica, and I think this is the right one. 

 

After three good used speedsters, Henry and I have put together what I think is going to be a long term keeper.

 

So, yes, you can get it just right, but it may take a little time.