Vintage vs JPS

I'm looking to jump into my first speedster and have been reading the forums daily. From what I've gathered, the IM and Beck and SAS are all tops but I'm not sure I'm patient enough and I'm not sure I want to spend that much at this stage of the game. I do know that I know very little about working on cars and engines and how they work other than turn the key, gas is go and brake is stop. Both Vintage and JPS seem to be reliable for the price range, I live in New Orleans so there are no close builders other than KY and SAS is more than I want to spend with a 12 month wait. IM sounds GREAT but 10 month wait and over $60K the way I want it.

From what I've read, JPS seems to have the slight edge over Vintage although both are excellent cars. Is this assumption incorrect (that JPS has the edge?) I'm not crazy about the Parking Brake in the centre, can either change this? Vintage states 5 weeks to get the turnkey ready and JPS 12 weeks. Any suggestions? Is the fit and finish superior on a JPS? Do they take their time or does VS just have more empolyees and can move faster on multiple orders?

I did notice the A/C on the JPS is very cheesy looking with a big plastic peice under the dash, just doesn't look integrated well like the Beck, SAS and IM. I didnt see any pics of A/C on the Vintage. In fact, I didn't see many interior pics of the Vintages at all. Also Vintage doesnt seem to offer a 2110 engine just 1915. I may have to fly out to LA to check them out but wanted to check here first. Thanks,

Rob

I think you'll find that the cost of a Beck is pretty much on par with a JPS. If you can get away for a few days in mid May, come up to Carlisle and check them out in person. It's the best way to research these cars. If you can't make Carlisle, call the manufacturers directly. Carey Hines at Special Edition (Beck) and John Steele at JPS would be happy to talk to you. I've never spoken to Kirk Duncan (I think) at Vintage, but I've heard he's also great to deal with.

As for engines, all of the manufacturers offer a few "standard" engines, but will happily include whatever you want. Remember, to avoid being labeled as true automobile manufacturers (with the safety and emissions stuff that goes along with that) they can't actually provide the engine or install it. You must purchase it separately. If you buy a turnkey, you will have to write a separate check for the engine, which the car builder will have installed by someone else with whom they have a contract for just such a thing. Because of this, you can specify any engine you want from any builder.

Robert,

Vintage does offer a 2100 Stroker motor. I think Les Bernell who has his superwide body for sale, has this motor. The motor is not advertised on the Vintage website. Expect to pay at leat 2k more for the Stroker. As far as fit and finish, the two cars are equal in the fit department but not in the finish department when it comes to paint. Plus, JPS seems to be more willing to customize options for you. Happy motoring.

Marty G.

My car is a Vintage!!!!! Very happy with it!!!!!!! Any one of the manufacturers is as good as you want them to be, with the right amount of $$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!

Gabe

Lane,

The prices may have changed in the past 2 years. A JPS w/2110 engine, am/fm/cd, 4 disk brakes, gas shocks, halogen lights, wood steering wheel and IRS, retractable seatbelts and leather seats is $29K. Beck starts at $26 without an engine. Once you price the Beck out your about $36K. That's about $7K more. Vintage seems good too but I've heard they dont' have full dash padding. I guess I'd have to see that to understand. Someone else here mentioned paint being a little better on the JPS as they may take their time and not rush through. I'm not knocking anyones ride. Just looking for best bang for the buck for a second/third car. I have a Honda Element to tote my 2 GSP's around and I'm looking to get a Jag XKR coupe in July or August so I really want to keep the speedster under $30K. This would be a fun convertible for weekends and such. I really wanted A/C but don't like the implementation on the JPS.

Gabriel,

I don't doubt your car is awesome! I also see you built it yourself as I kit. I'm looking for a turnkey so I'm concerned with the builders fit and finish from their shop. I'm not mechanically inclined so I want a car that will be problem free from the get go.

Rob

Wow, I didn't realize they were $26k sans engine. You may be right, then.

Be aware that both JPS and Vintage use the same body. The dash padding difference is pretty minor, because JPS doesn't do the pad unless you ask for it, although the standard vinyl covering is full width rather than stopping short of the doors as it does on a VS. I recommend a search of this site for posts regarding the differences in quality, etc. There are many happy owners of each. I'll also reiterate the recommendation to check out some cars either at Carlisle in May, as I believe the California gatherings (Morro Bay and Knott's Berry Farm) are both this weekend. I really believe that you need to check out these cars in person before you buy. Also check out some of the used cars available on this site and others. Many folks say that's the best way to get into the hobby, learning what you do and don't like before buying or building your dream car.

Hi Rob; I've been working and living in New Orleans for the past 8 months and really like it; I'm even thinking about staying here. I have a Vintage Speedster in my current home in Puerto Rico that I ordered new in 2004. If what you're looking for is bang for the buck the VS is it. Bear in mind that the attention to detail is less than in the equivalent JPS but they're very nice cars. I've tweaked mine to personalize it to what I wanted and I've had fun doing it too. The dash padding I added (any upholsterer can do it for you) because another forum member here sold me the pads (that he didn't want to use) from his CMC kit; I just covered them in the same vinyl, glued them and away it went. I could go on and on about all the things I've done to it to optimize it but it would be too much for the space allowed here. All I can say is that I love it after all these years and am dying to put it on a barge and bring it here to drive it around when it's nice out (and I bet all the BMW owners around here will get envious as hell).

In terms of engines I agree with you that the 2110 cc is the best choice in terms of performance and reliability. In my car I have the VS 1915 cc that I've optimized. With VS you can also negotiate that; he can give you a credit if you don't buy the engine from him and he can install the engine from the builder of your choice (CB Performance and Jake Raby amongst others come to mind as good choices).

For all practical purposes the JPS is a deluxe version of a VS (they use the same bodies by a supplier in Mexico and probably the trim, gauges, etc.). All I know is that VS is the Speedster builder with the most volume (they crank out 4 cars per week) and Kirk and his team have that down to a science having been in business for a few years now. In fact, sometimes they even finish your car earlier than quoted; they're that efficient. You're welcome to email me or even talk to me in person if you wish. Feel free to check my photo folder for pictures of what I've done to the car.

Robert,
Vintage did all the chasis work, suspension and drivetrain except engine, which I did myself and they placed the body on the chasis. I did the rest!!!! Hood, door and rear deck lid was done by Vintage and is very tight. I had it painted by his painter, but chose the paint color myself and paid extra for extra clear coats. I did the interior, glass, gauges, top, carpet, lights and molding myself, etc. Also, Kirk will be more then glad to help if there is any problems if you try to do things yourself and run into trouble.

Gabe

Wow,

Thanks for all th helpful replies. I think I'm going out to CA in 3 weeks or so to check out both builders and see the differences in cars if any. I priced out both and the VS is about 2K less than the JPS but again different motors. All in all they are about what and what in price. Again I like the idea of a 5 week turn around with Kirk as opposed to 12 weeks with JPS (One guy said JPS too 24 wks). Is the padding extension something Kirk could do if you asked? What other "little details" does Kirk leave out?

Thanks.

Rob

p.s. RIcardo, I think you should bring your car here! Then I can check out a VS locally! :)

Robert, feel free to call me when you get out here and you can take a look at my VS. I can meet you or you can take a quick trip to La Verne, it's not far from VS. I have a 2110 motor and can relay the pro's and con's w/ the engine and the car. It's been a year since I brought my car and I can tell you it's been a year of learning.
If you want good info on speedsters ,this is the site to go to, most of these guys giving advise know what they are talking about. I'm a novice, but at least you can see and take a drive in my car.
Jack.. 909-241-1185.

Jack Coberly said "It's been a year of learning".

Amen to that, brother!! I must say though that I have enjoyed every minute thanks to the great folks on the site.

For the record--I have a 1 year old Vintage with 2,100 miles on it. It has never missed a lick and I believe that if you can find a better value in a Speedie you should buy it.

I am a very happy owner and have my car with zero isssues now and ready to double the miles on it when I drive it to Carlisle, PA from Hot Springs, AR in 3 weeks ---Jack

Jack (coberly),

Just wondering why you rated your speedster an 8 on quality. What issues if any did you have?

Rob

I can give you a quick list Rob. For example in my case my car didn't have an anti-sway bar installed; I had to buy one and install it. Also it had one non adjustable springplate and and adjustable one on the opposite side; I bought a pair of adjustable springplates and replaced the non adjustable one. There's some minor paint blemishes but not the end of the world (I ended up repainting both bumpers and they turned out great). The chrome leaves a little to be desired (same as JPS); since they're Chinese reproductions; I ended up re-chroming the license plate light and the tailight rings. I need to re-chrome my rear view mirrors also. Same thing with the gauges; as in JPS they're Chinese repros instead of the Brazilian VDO repros offered in the Beck. After replacing my tachometer once (VS exchanged it free of charge) I ended up sending the other one to North Hollywood Speedometer after it started acting out too. I replaced the innards with authentic VDO innards (around $160.00 a couple of years ago). I would say all in all minor problems because the rest of the build was a great deal for the money.

Robert... Ricardo pretty much says it, ditto. Some of my components could have been higher quality( fuel pump, distributor). I also had problems w/ the carbs/ idle and keeping the engine in tune. The carbs (solex-one barrels) for the 2110 engine are way to little. I have replaced them w/ Weber 44 idf's and though she is now a little over carbed for the basically stock engine, the car is running great. Part of the score was at the time my lack of understanding the components of the car. Like they say," if I knew then what I know now".
However Kirk at VS was very accommodating and made the adjustments that were necessary.
P.S. If you get their 2110 engine it will be all stock(unless they have changed their policy). If you want a bigger engine I would recommend having one built to your specs. A little more money, but worth it in the long run.

Robert.. one other note. I should have spent 6 mos reading this forum before I brought my car. I love my car but will end up spending alot of extra money to get it up to par (my vision of it).
It's my daily driver and I plan on keeping it a long time, so in the end I hope it will be worth it. Who ever you buy a car from 1. know what questions to ask and 2. know what you want for components.

Robert, you mentioned a concern over the "build time" for a JPS. One reason I might offer is that John is building 356 coupes and speedsters. Actually lots and lots of coupes right now. There happens to be a big vacuum in the market right now for his 356 coupe.

While we are all used to Wal-Mart shopping (just pull a turn-key of the shelf and take it home today), to my mind a small backlog in build time is a sign JPS is doing something right! Last weekend he told me he had a backlog of 5 coupes right now. And yes, his shop is a bit smaller than Vintage.

I really am not that up on cars engines and such so it's great you guys are letting me know. So it seems I should ask about upgrading to Weber carbs for the 2110 engine. Also make sure I have a anti-sway bar installed in the rear.

What is a Pro Street Transmission and how does that compare to a Heavy Duty Close Ratio Transmission? Are either of these a worthwhile upgrade? This is on JPS website. Vintage offers a 3.88 or 4.12 transmission. Again, what is the difference?

Thanks,

Rob

I have a Vintage and it is AWESOME! It runs like an absolute champ, I have NEVER had one problem with it. Kirk and Mary are the easiet people in the world to deal with and you can get any engine you want, you just have to pay the price. I believe JPS gets there body's from Vintage?? If you want a JPS with a big engine, Gerd has his for sale, its a beauty and he is asking a great price.

Robert,

If you drive on the fwy alot or long distances, then you'll want the 3:88 ratio tranny, the 4:12 revs to high for fwy driving.

Close ratio is ok for 1st, 2nd or even 3rd for quick off the line starts.

Yes on the sway bar and carbs are your preference. The webers are fantastic when tuned properly and the Kadrons are nice with less tuning needed, but you will lose a little power with these.


Gabe

Definitely go for Webers or Dellorto dual throats; once set you can forget about them unlike the Kadrons that can be a pain in the you know what to dial in. That has been my experience and a friend of mine's too. After he spent a lot of money getting his Kadrons worked on by some specialty shops they still wouldn't run right. As gabriel said go for the 3.88 if you do a lot of highway driving and/or have a bigger torquier engine. The 4.12 is perfect for stock and/or smaller displacement motors.

So with the 2110 engine go with the 3.88? What is the ProStreet transmission? Is that the same thing as the 3.88? I like the idea of setting the carbs and forgeting about it. I'll ask if Webers are an option they will add and how much as I didn't see them listed on either site. Any more tips?

Rob

Kirk at Vintage will not do Webers for you. Something to do with Insurance. As far as what carbs are right for your engine, I have read contradicting post on this site. Even the 2110 Stroker that Kirk will get you is not a super high performance motor. I only have the 1915cc with Solex/Kadrons, and when I had my car in for its first oil change I made a comment that I was thinking about adding Webers. The owner looked right at me and said "you are already over carbed". German Autowerks is a well respected Euro car shop in my area and the have experience with VW/Porsche aircooled.

I am new at this, but my research leads me to belive that unless you go with a high performance motor(125+hp), the $750.00 or so spent on Webers may be better spent in high quality headers and mufflers. I say this assuming you are going with one of these builders stock type motors. If you go the route of a true engine builder like CB, Chico,Proformance,& Raby, than we are taliking about a different ball of wax and the Webers now make sense.

Marty G.

Actually, Weber or Dellorto carbs (they're very similar) come in different venturi sizes. A set of 40's are perfect for mild engines. Dellorto offered 36's (you can get them factory rebuilt from a guy in Italy who sells them on Ebay; that's where me and my friend got our sets from, username is alfa1750) and they work great for stock displacement and a little more (like up to 1776). Of course you have the 44's, 48's and even 52's for more powerful engines. Make sure you get a set of air cleaners from CB Performance (actually, if you buy just the carbs from Gabrielle in Italy, you'll need the manifold, linkage and air cleaner set as offered by CB Performance). Also do yourself a favor and get the CB Performance book on either Weber or Dellorto (depending on the brand you choose). And yes, the 2110 goes perfect with the 3.88 (freeway flyer) transaxle. Rancho Transmission as well as KCR come to mind as good tranny builders.

Ricardo,

Will good quality air cleaners make a differnce on the Solex/Kadrons? I not sure about the quality of the air cleaners that came with my car.


Thanks,


Marty

Marty:

anything you can do to increase the throughput of Kadrons will help, so, yes, better quality air cleaners will help. Will you notice the difference in performance? Maybe, and maybe not...if the older filters were dirty and clogged up, then putting on something like K&N's might make a difference but you still may not feel it.

Speaking of K&N's, most people who have them clean and re-oil them far too often. If you look at their tech sheets they recommend 50,000 miles between cleaning and they actually filter incoming air BETTER when they start to get a little dirty.

That's the good news...the not-so-good news is that I'm looking into the likelyhood that they can catch fire if a Weber or Dellorto coughs up a fireball. I doubt it, but my son has an old K&N filter that he was going to toss so I'll be expirementing with it when I get back North to see how fast (if at all) it'll catch with a flame and forced air present. Should be interesting....

In the meantime, just get the best paper element filter you can find that'll fit.

gn

Actually guys, the filters that come in the EMPI kit with the Kadrons (the most common Kadron kit nowadays) are identical to the K&N's so they should be pretty good.

Well,

To get back on topic. I am now in not so sunny L.A. (very overcast all weekend, just my luck). I have visited both shops, JPS and VS. Kirk really rolls em out! I don't see too much of a difference between the 2 cars and even got to test both. Kirk definitely has a high profile client list, Kurt Russel, Brittany Spears and Brad Garrett to name a few. I don't know if it's because he's cheaper or more well known. I couldn't feel that much of a difference between the 2110 engine and the 1915 to be honest. Kirk recommends the front disk and rear drum. He says all 4 disks are spongy due to a small master cylinder? John says it just needs to be broken in but likes the 4 disk better. It's a tough call. Plus John's Price went up to 30K and he dropped the alarm as standard now it's a pay option. Any other suggestions?

Rob

If you want a builder who stands behind his work, go with Kirk at VS.

If you want a guy who delivers your car in whatever shape it's in and then runs away, go with JPS (see other posts on this site about JPS).

Caveat emptor.......

Gordon,

Are you basing this on your own experience or on the posts about the leaking coupe? I don't want to get into a he said she said, but I do want to compare apples to apples and although there are issues with that person, it's a different vehicle and there still seem to be many kinks left to work out with the coupe, so I want to compare speedster to speedster. I also have heard stories about Kirk taking the money and leaving people with troublesome cars. Even Honda and Toyota have lemons that people wind up buying. Just the luck of the draw.

My main questions are:

1) Is there really that much difference between the 1915cc and
2110cc engine?

2) Is leather that much better than the vinyl seating? (kirk says
get the vinyl)

3) Is the paint on the JPS that much better than the VS? (John
says their paint process take 3 weeks and has 7-8 coats, I
don't think that even Honda does that so I wonder if its BS or
not.)

Rob

p.s. I really didn't see much difference between the 2 cars when I was at the shops today. Other than some badging that John uses.

My .02
I've seen a number of the JPS products, "not the luck of the draw" but lack of attention to the product and customer satisfaction. I was involved in a multi JPS product purchase a few years back and thought that the problems we had were a one time thing, as time progressed I assumed that JPS would surely improve on their product and support however, have seen and heard the same faults and broken promises again and again with me/us having to do all of our own "fixes" to make things right on two purchases from JPS.
Vintage puts out a quality speedster at a reasonable price and you'll get it in approx 6 weeks. Kirk stands behind his products so does Henry at IM and Carey at Special Edition who also produce high quality speedsters.
A 1915 type 1 is a decent non stroker motor that has enough power and is reliable.
I highly recommend "Alante" brand vinyl (VS gets this for me) it's the closest to leather and has a rich appearance.
No driver "needs seven coats" Kirk at VS paint is decent, I understand that if you ask VS to do black, there is an add'l upcharge for further prep the body as a decent black paint job requires additional body surface prep. All in all, take the time to research and talk personally with owners and each speedster manufacture on a one to one bases. ~Alan
manufacture on a one to one bases. ~Alan

Alan,

Thanks for the heads up. Both gentlemen seemed very nice but they should be for $25-$30K. All in all, Kirk seemed to tell me certain things like recommending vinyl instead of leather, recommending front disk and rear drum instead of 4 wheel disk as the master cylinder is too small and the brakes feel too spongy. Also recommended the 1915cc as it would have less trouble than a 2110 and he wants customers to have as trouble free a car as possible.

Like I stated, his 1915 and Johns 2110 with dual Weber 40's seemed what and what to me and the transmission on Kirks seemed better, maybe just broken in (he let me drive his wifes car). Lastly Kirk impressed me with his knowledge of the stereo and having a true iPod connector as opposed to an auxiliary jack. John didn't seem to know or care and his cars just have an AUX jack. I Know it's just a stereo but I like that he's up on all aspects of the car, even the radio and made sure to tell me my ipod would charge when hooked up.

Most of this talk is leaning me toward VS. I guess there are no guarantees with either.

Rob

P.S. Is the difference between the 1915 and the 2110 just taking a non-stroker engine and making it a stroker?

thanks,

Rob

Rob..the 1915 is stock stroke with larger bore....2110 has both larger bore and stroke.
http://speedsterowners.com/knowledge/article.asp?id=100

Just to make it ease.
A stock VW 1,600 cc is actually 1,584cc's
It uses 85.5 mm cylinders and a 69mm stroke crank

1776 uses 90.5 cylinders and a 69mm stroke crank
1835 uses 92mm cylinders and a 69mm stroke crank
1915 uses 94mm cylinders and a 69mm stroke crank
2110 uses 90.5mm cylinders and a 82mm stroke crank
2165 uses 94mm cylinders and a 78mm stroke crank
2180 uses 92mm cylinders and a 82mm stroke crank
2276 uses 94mm cylinders and a 82mm stroke crank
2332 uses 94mm cylinders and a 84mm stroke crank

Robert, I have a Pat Downs-built 1915cc, and have driven Gordon Nichols' home-built 2110cc, so maybe I can offer some useful comparisons. I really like my 1915, whose only problem (not of my own making) in 9000 miles has been a rather persistent oil leak. Not major - just annoying. As far as performance, though, it's a blast. It winds amazingly smoothly, and has plenty of punch. It'll outrun a lot of modern cars, and I have no trouble cruising at 80 MPH. That said, Gordon's 2110 will leave me behind. He has much more low end torque, and it is punchy at all RPMs. We both get about 28 MPG in mixed driving (correct me if I'm wrong, Gordon). I don't recall that he's had much in the way of maintenance issues, beyond the usual occasional clogged jet in the Webers. The one fly in the ointment seems to be cost, as the bigger engines do cost more.

Either way you go, it'll be a lot of fun.

Rob; go with the 2110 cc hands down...I have a 1915 cc not out of choice (I ordered a 1776 but Kirk installed a 1915 because he later told me he had been having problems with the 1776's at the time). The 2110 has thicker cylinder walls (90.5 mm cylinders) which help in the cooling and longevity department along with the added torque you get from an 82 mm crank as opposed to the stock 69 mm. The 2110 is the one to get.

Now I asked Kirk about the 2110 and he recommended against it and said it would have more problems. This is all very confusing. If I got the 1776 engine, could I later change the crank shaft to 82mm making it a 2110 or does it not work that way? Would that be more costly than replacing it with a 2110 engine?

I did a google search and can't really find anyone in my area who does that kind of VW engine work. I'm hesitant to go with an engine the builder doesn't supply as I need to know someone will stand by it if I have a problem in the first year.

Lastly, is there a big difference between an IRS and a Swing Axel? I'm guessing VS is a Swing Axel and I know the JPS custom is a IRS 4 lug Chassis. Wondering how much of a difference it makes.

Rob

Robert, try and get an early model chassis with the wide-5 bolt pattern. Save yourself the expense of converting from 4 to 5 lug down the road.