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Visit to SAW, part I

tommtomm
All,

I made a visit to SAS yesterday from way out in Olympia, WA. I wanted to record my impressions for the group.

Part I

Overall: Thriving small business with Steve as the chief engineer and visionary, Bob as the shop supervisor and lovely Lisa as the business manager. Located in a steel building at the end of Mill Branch Rd it looks just like any other light industrial concern until you walk around the side and see the row of 356 bodies, the master for the molds and a sacrificial Suby. Inside is an office / showroom / parts storage area where on my visit I saw a customer's red Cabriolet which was in for some minor body work. In the back were several "starts" and a couple more customer cars in for upgrades or repairs. Of keen interest to me was the ability to compare and contrast the 2.5L turbo setup with the 2.2L normally aspirated. All of my questions were answered and no question was too dumb. Steve is very good at having discussions and not delivering lectures.

Chassis and mechanicals: The chassis are being welded up by a sub contractor now that Steve has worked out 90% of the product kinks. As he improves with each assembly, there are the inevitable mods such as which side to mount the radiator and how to stack the AC condensor in an intercooled car. These are mods welded in at the final assembly shop. Overall the chassis is well done but could use a final QC step before painting which would include knocking or grinding off all slag, and making sure all welds were well filled and ground smooth. In Steve's shop, the floor pan (356 correct) and firewalls are fitted and welded as part of the chassis assembly. Again, QC of the welds need attention in my opinion. No quality issue, but I would take the additional step for my customers and for my employees. The fully custom Lotus 2 style rear Chapman suspension is professionally designed and assembled with quality parts. The custom nature has allowed Steve to develop coil overs with Geo Metro dampers and quality adjustable coils along with employing race quality camber adjusters with forged ends. The shift linkage is very heavy duty and provides a solid feel between the shifter and the fully custom actuator Steve designed for th etail of the Subaru transmission. He has significantly improved this linkage from the early models to today. I verified this in comparing the "feel" between the car I drove and the new turbo in his shop. The front steering gear is of Mustang II liniage but has mods designed by Steve to provide wide track suspension. Front suspension is also coil over design. Breaks are 11" 4 wheel disk. You could go to 14" disks if using the 17" rims but why? 1800 lbs really just doesn't need it unless doing hard rally or street racing. I'm not racing so will stick with the elevens. The pedals are user adjustable and Steve can mount the custom hinge point to suit the driver's legs.


Tomm in Olympia

1959 Intermeccanica(Roadster)

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tommtomm
All,

I made a visit to SAS yesterday from way out in Olympia, WA. I wanted to record my impressions for the group.

Part I

Overall: Thriving small business with Steve as the chief engineer and visionary, Bob as the shop supervisor and lovely Lisa as the business manager. Located in a steel building at the end of Mill Branch Rd it looks just like any other light industrial concern until you walk around the side and see the row of 356 bodies, the master for the molds and a sacrificial Suby. Inside is an office / showroom / parts storage area where on my visit I saw a customer's red Cabriolet which was in for some minor body work. In the back were several "starts" and a couple more customer cars in for upgrades or repairs. Of keen interest to me was the ability to compare and contrast the 2.5L turbo setup with the 2.2L normally aspirated. All of my questions were answered and no question was too dumb. Steve is very good at having discussions and not delivering lectures.

Chassis and mechanicals: The chassis are being welded up by a sub contractor now that Steve has worked out 90% of the product kinks. As he improves with each assembly, there are the inevitable mods such as which side to mount the radiator and how to stack the AC condensor in an intercooled car. These are mods welded in at the final assembly shop. Overall the chassis is well done but could use a final QC step before painting which would include knocking or grinding off all slag, and making sure all welds were well filled and ground smooth. In Steve's shop, the floor pan (356 correct) and firewalls are fitted and welded as part of the chassis assembly. Again, QC of the welds need attention in my opinion. No quality issue, but I would take the additional step for my customers and for my employees. The fully custom Lotus 2 style rear Chapman suspension is professionally designed and assembled with quality parts. The custom nature has allowed Steve to develop coil overs with Geo Metro dampers and quality adjustable coils along with employing race quality camber adjusters with forged ends. The shift linkage is very heavy duty and provides a solid feel between the shifter and the fully custom actuator Steve designed for th etail of the Subaru transmission. He has significantly improved this linkage from the early models to today. I verified this in comparing the "feel" between the car I drove and the new turbo in his shop. The front steering gear is of Mustang II liniage but has mods designed by Steve to provide wide track suspension. Front suspension is also coil over design. Breaks are 11" 4 wheel disk. You could go to 14" disks if using the 17" rims but why? 1800 lbs really just doesn't need it unless doing hard rally or street racing. I'm not racing so will stick with the elevens. The pedals are user adjustable and Steve can mount the custom hinge point to suit the driver's legs.


Tomm in Olympia
tommtomm
Here is the middle of the story...

Turbo vs non-turbo: I did not have a chance to drive a turbo but I can say that given the massive complexity of the turbo and the great performance of the non turbo 2.2L, I would order my car with a normally aspirated 2.5L and a 5 speed standard transmission. Because I can easily get 250HP out of this engine before going to a turbo, I would definitely ask Steve to install HD rear CVs and axles he reserves for the turbo. Also because I may want to convert to a turbo or a future buyer may want to do the same, I would ask Steve to provide a turbo capable frame and Intercooler mounts.

Standard vs Automatic Transmission: I test drove both a standard and an automatic version of the 2.2L Cabriolet. Hands down, go with the standard if you want sports car performance. Steve recommends an automatic with the 2.5L turbo but admits it is personal preference.

Handling, etc.: High speed lane changes were solid with no roll or sway. Cornering and braking on a section of winding mountial road were similarly solid. Breaking felt old fashioned after having power assist ABS for so many years in my big old Volvo S80. However, braking distances were short and braking was precise. I felt no difference between the 17" wide stance and the standard 15" narrow tires in the level of driving I was doing. Flared fenders and big wheels are a personal choice much more than a performance choice for a vehicle of this weight. I think the flares and the wide stance look tough and would probably go with them. Perhaps an assymetric setup with fat rubber in the back and skinnies in front with no flare? Steering was very easy and never gave a hint of understeer or any instabilities.



Tomm in Olympia
tommtomm
Here is the end of the story...

Fit and finish: The newest of the customer cars in the shop was a beauty in Mini green metallic and a dark top and interior. The paint was near flawless and any imperfections could have been secondary due to road debris. Doors close with authority and the gaps are very uniform around doors, trunk and "engine" cover. The tops seal perfectly and the newest car had new features such as stainless pillar top plates for the top to seal to and some velcro goodies to seal out more road noise. The level of detail in the finish of the interior and the cargo spaces was impressive as it included complete carpeting of all storage and a liner for the front hatch underside as well. Access to the electricals is via hatches inside the rear storage compartment while access to the engine mechanicals is via a well sound deadened cover behind the seats. In the turbo version, front seat travel and recline is limited by the square shape of this cover necessitated by the added turbo plumbing. Seats are as close to cabriolet authentic as you can get in a replica product and the leather quality is very good. Squareweave and standard carpets are offered as are cocoa mats and choices of fabric for the convertible top.

Instruments and Radios: Steve has standarized on instruments which look authentic and provide the proper interfaces for the Subaru electrical system. The speedo is now cable driven as opposed to being electronic. DIN radios will mount in the spot reserved on the dash but I noticed the newer radios' faceplates interfered with the radius of the indentation provided in the 356 accurate space. I will go with "Hitler's original Blaupunkt" as offered by Steve. This radio is a refurb from Germany which has AM/FM and 2 SW bands selected by buttons. It is completely refurbed and brought up to 12VDC wiring standards. In a car this noisy (top down, great exhaust note, cheering fans) who needs Sirius or XM or, heaven forbid, an MP3 port?

Lighting: Your choice. I will go with glass headlight covers, not wire grilles and do the upgrade myself to a HID system if possible. This is due to my old eyes and declining night vision. I will also go with high intensity LED tail lighting and center brake lighting as well. Some original Hella fogs up front would be a nice touring touch in my not so humble opinion.

I am still grinning...

Tomm in Olympia
Nolan-TennesseeNolan-Tennessee
Super description, now I don't feel so down waiting on my car's completion. I knew Steve incorporated mods and engineering changes as he progressed with each build. I wish I had known you or Hoss (probably the owner of the Red Cabriolet) were there so that you could look into the progress of my Cabrio. I understand one buyer sold his contract to another Floridian who called me to see if he had done the right thing in buying it. If I had the opportunity to do the same I wouldn't hesitate since his wait for the SEG won't be as long as usual. You said there were a number of 356 bodies out back, when I visited last year there weren't any and Steve depended on someone else to supply them. I guess he's been overwelmed with so many requests that it's hard for him to keep up with demands and is just now starting to catch up.

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FM Former Member
Good stuff, Tomm.
Interesting that the welding is being farmed out; that will probably speed up the process for everyone waiting on a car. That takes a looong time to do if it's done right, especially if the welds are ground and the little boogies are buzzed off. I hope the subcontractor has the same attention to detail as the in-house cars. They're works of art.
Excellent bit of reporting.
M mdguthrie
Nice report Tom. The weld splatter you saw was on my car. I also asked Steve about that and he assured me it would be fixed before final assembly. It bothered me because the frame should have been covered before welding. The real problem is the frame is painted before everything is welded. All and all the build is very high quality. I selected the turbo because I want 350 plus HP. Can't get there without the turbo and variable timing and still meet California air quality standards. Nolan.....My wait looks like at least two more months and I started 20 Months ago. My engine is in and the plumbing is completed. The body is at the paint shop but it's been there for two months. The turbo before me was finished two months after the body was painted and delivered to the shop. Remember Steve spends at least two weeks testing the final product.....mike
M mdguthrie
Nice report Tom. The weld splatter you saw was on my car. I also asked Steve about that and he assured me it would be fixed before final assembly. It bothered me because the frame should have been covered before welding. The real problem is the frame is painted before everything is welded. All and all the build is very high quality. I selected the turbo because I want 350 plus HP. Can't get there without the turbo and variable timing and still meet California air quality standards. Nolan.....My wait looks like at least two more months and I started 20 Months ago. My engine is in and the plumbing is completed. The body is at the paint shop but it's been there for two months. The turbo before me was finished two months after the body was painted and delivered to the shop. Remember Steve spends at least two weeks testing the final product.....mike
tommtomm
Your turbo is progressing nicely. While I was there the suspension and steering had been fitted, the engine in place and assembly underway. I don't see 22 mos as too long to wait for this car. I do think Steve is at risk of getting a poor reputation based on over commits (10 mos promised) vs under delivery (24 mos actual). This is unfortunate. If I were Steve, I would promise 24 mos and delight customers with 18 mo deliveries.

As customers, we can't complain about long builds if we change requirements, features or configurations. As a supplier, Steve needs to provide firm cutoff dates for additions and changes to stay within the build schedule.

Tomm
M mdguthrie
Tomm I agree with your points... The problem is that Steve started with a 9 month build time. That is, before the final decision that Steve made to offer the Turbo.....But then it was try to meet a April deadline...then a July time frame on and on. I not sure how many people would wait 2 years with +30K invested. I know it will be worth the effort if, I really knew when finished was. Mike
FM Former Member
I think your crazy for not putting in XM or something like that, the digital sound is so much better. I have several times thought the car was making some noise only to find out it is a sound in the song that I had never heard on normal radio.

The best thing to do on headlight brightness is to adjust the headllights up more...if you park a similar hieght car in the garage at the same distance to the wall and then just adjust the headligts up to the same point on the wall. It will be much higher then where Steve puts them, and I have never once had anyone flash me to indicate that they thought they were on brite. He thinks mine are adjusted too high, I think he is wrong, and they are the best lighting of any of my cars this way.

You really can't see the frame after the body is on, and especially, you can't see most of the welds. I have seen the welds from the subcontractor versus mine before they were contracted out, and they are much much better quality and look.

I think if you are thinking about making a normally aspirated 2.5 run 250hp, you would be much MUCH better off with the 300hp turbo for reliability and cost, but I agree normally aspirated has other advantages. 13000 miles now, and having a blast, oh and I will take a bow for some of those mods you mentioned.

www.porschereplica.1colony.com
FM Former Member
Steve,

I can't help but chuckle every time I see the hola-girl. What is the story there anyway?

Tomm - Excellent report. Thanks for putting it together. Do you have any photos by any chance?

Timeline - It sounds like a great step forward that Steve is finding ways to optimize the build process and hopefully reduce turnaround time on future builds. I wonder if there are any other major items he could farm out or speed up? 24 months is a long time to wait. 12-18 seems so much shorter...

I guess the other issue is in understanding how large the queue is in front of you as that is dictating a lot I suspect. It sounds like there are a dozen or more cars in process right now?

-Jeff
guru39guru39
Over the past four or five years, I have had discussions with Steve at SAS on the benefits of outsourcing. He now outsources many items that include improved fiberglass bodies and components, upholstery, frames, painting and perhaps other things. While he has worked to improve efficiency (particularly through component configuration), I believe it is his desire to please the customer that has the greatest impact on the building time.

If Steve had limited his offerings to the Hoss car, his build time would be greatly reduced and all of us might be happier. The reality is that each us wants a unique custom car with more or different buzzers and whistles and hence the queue gets longer since the staff has not increased significantly with the longer queue. IMHO, the modifications to the basic design required to assemble the turbo cars have required perhaps 6-9 months of additional developmental time. While Steve has difficulty acknowledging it, all delays ripple directly down the queue, since his work tends to occur in tandem rather than in parallel. Moving the radiator requires redesign time; lowering the engine profile requires redesign time; moving components requires redesign time, etc. I don
FM Former Member
Charles, it's difficult sometimes to wrap one's head around exactly what you just described. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person with an extended build time, but I did just what you described, minus the turbo, and changed everything I initially set out to accomplish. I've only been in the car for two weeks or so now, but it's anight and day difference from what I had before.
I probably added six months to my own build by requiring new changes based on the equipment I wanted to install, and if I hadn't been wrenching on it myself, I might not have understood what was taking so long. We had a little help, but the car's only so big, and a third full-timer would have been in the way. Just to weld together a go-kart, I spent what I'll estimate at 1,000 hours of my time, and maybe 1,600-1,800 of the ace mechanic's, and didn't have to spend a whole lot of money on labor.
For what the high-performance versions of these cars cost, the amount of time customization takes and the results from the time, effort and energy ... you'd think more people would just give up and throw in the towel.
But the reward of perseverance is totally worth it.
It's not like they're off-the-lot Toyotas or anything, right?
FM Former Member
Tomm, How ironic, you live only a few hours from from Intermeccanica, but chose to fly all the way to Knoxville to look at Steve's specialty Auto Works. I live only 90 miles from Knoxville, and after visiting with Steve, plus my Boulder Speedster debacle. I flew to Vancouver to spec & order an IM !!
FM Former Member
"his work tends to occur in tandem rather than in parallel"

Ok, I'm tired, not very smart, and not very good looking. But, I can't figure out what that means.

My car is basically Johnny's car with different taillights, sunvisors, fog lights, overrider tubes added, and the same drivetrain as the protoype car.

Now the overrider tubes were an actual development in my opinion, but the other stuff is so common that I don't think Steve would really call those things developments.

Of course my car was really only about 6-8 weeks late from when Steve said he would have it done. While it was bad timing because of my own personal schedule, I think he did pretty well. Most of that delay was the overrider tubes, which were a true new development and were not as easy as people think to get right. Hmmm....compared to the changes and developments of the next cars coming out, I would have to agree with Charles as to the delays.

I would also agree that a delay in car "D" makes for an equal delay in car "E" even if car "E" has nothing to develop for it and the owner makes no changes at all. Now if your car "K" and every car in front of you took an average of an extra 4 weeks to complete, your car is going to be 7 months late.

I'm glad I ordered early and avoided some of this, but I still believe for most of these guys the punishment of the extra long wait, is worth the improvements and developments made during that time. Being early has a different set of drawbacks, but they were ones I was willing to live with and overcome.

The hoola girl is for my wife, she says in a previous life she was a tahitian princess. The hoola girl is my wife in her former life.
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