VS for sale in Tampa

Discs or drums? Engine size and any info at all about it's capabilities (how high does it rev with power)? Has the transaxle been rebuilt with the usual strengthening tricks? Gearing (it would be nice to know the r&p)? Tire/wheel sizes and width? And for anyone who reads this- Firestone radials are not period correct.

PS- Nice looking car, but absolutely nothing about it. At $24,900, with a stock 4.375 or 4.125  gearbox, 1600, drum brakes and 165's all around, it's way overpriced. With a rebuilt/beefed 3.88 trans, 2332 or 2386 that revs to 6500 or 7,000rpm, discs all around and 185's on 5 1/2 or 6" rims, not so much. Al

New pricing has escalated in the last year or so and as a result clean, basic used versions are gaining value.  Even without the extras mentioned above by ALB, his asking price may not be too unrealistic. 

The sad thing is, is that most sellers don't actually know the specs on their own car.  I've been searching for a used VS for a LONG time now, and I can't tell you how many sellers I've come across that just flat out don't know anything about their own car.  Given that - and maybe because of that - there's alot of sellers that wildly overprice their cars.  Just look on ebay.  You've got VS's that should be priced in the mid 20's, that are priced in the mid 30's.  Who's buying these cars for $10k more than they could buy them NEW direct from VS???!!!!

The entire used Speedster market is wildly inconsistent, and I think it's due largely to people who aren't familiar with the differences between brands.  They see an Intermeccanica or Beck selling in the 40's or higher, and think their junky Fiber Fab is suddenly worth $25K, not realizing that vast differences between the two.

Please let me know if you can buy a new custom Vintage Speedster (VS) for $25K.  Mine was well optioned and close to $34K some years ago.

Unless the price list that they sent me two years ago was incorrect, the base price for a VS is $23,500.  Add $1k for a 1915cc, $450 for a 3.88 trans, and $450 for disc brakes up front.  That comes to $25,400.  What else do you need?  I wouldn't need anything else.  Maybe front trunk carpet, but that would be it.  That's a couple hundred more dollars.  But that's it really.  I've seen cars with not even that many options selling with a $30K asking price.

And I'm also talking about a used car.  Used cars should be selling for less than you can get them new.  Even if your well-optioned car was $34k when new, it's not worth that when you go to re-sell it.

Era, your prices are extinct! A VS these days will be close to, if not $30,000 out the door.

Those who are paying over that, as seen on Ebay and the internet marketplaces are those who want a speedster (copy) but have no idea where to purchase one.

Like you, I'm amazed these sellers list cars for such prices but I'm not sure they get those prices. It may be a negotiating ploy: drop $5K off a $35K car and still make some money as Kirk probably gives his regular (wholesale) buyers a discount of some kind.

These spec-cars keep Kirk's workers employed and get his product out there where new buyers may be found.

And used cars can and should cost more than a new VS. My car will not be sold for the $29,000 I paid (including tax and all) because the motor I received was a POS.

The 2110 that replaced it, along with all the work entailed make it worth at least $35,000, if not more. In several years that price will be the going price of a VS which is a car that needs lots of sorting regardless of the price it's sold for.

Ok, then what's the base price now?

Also, I'm not talking about cars that sellers have put significant work into, like say, a new motor.  Of course that would affect the price.  I've bought and sold a fair number of air cooled classics...I know how that works.  I'm talking about cars that, aside from routine maintenance, are sitting as they were when they left VS.  There's no way a car with 10K or 20K miles on it, which has had nothing done to it except oil changes and valve adjustments and maybe some carb tuning, is going to be worth more than it was when it was new.  At least not in my opinion.

My price sheet from August was $26,000 base price. The 1915 motor upgrade, retro stereo, front disc brakes, oil cooler, oil filter and banjo steering wheel were free.

The rear disc brakes were $350 (removed by VS as they couldn't get them to work), a 12 volt accesory plug was $65, the camber compensator was $100, passenger mirror was $60 (which was unusable since it only showed low flying aircraft) and the luggage rack was $200. California sales tax added $2, 409 for a total of $29, 185

Rear discs are easi peasi,  somebody missed something.....

i.e. sometimes the caliper needs to be removed and held in pace at 12 o'clock position to get it to bleed right.                                                                                               2 lb residual valve to hold pressure as the master cylinder is below the calipers.

Passenger mirror, replace it with a convex Aero mirror head.

" Never.......... settle till you, are 100% satisfied "

Will Hesch posted:

My price sheet from August was $26,000 base price. The 1915 motor upgrade, retro stereo, front disc brakes, oil cooler, oil filter and banjo steering wheel were free.

The rear disc brakes were $350 (removed by VS as they couldn't get them to work), a 12 volt accesory plug was $65, the camber compensator was $100, passenger mirror was $60 (which was unusable since it only showed low flying aircraft) and the luggage rack was $200. California sales tax added $2, 409 for a total of $29, 185

So basically the car I want that I priced out at $25,400 up earlier in this thread is now $26K.  My pricing apparently is not too extinct!   Maybe if I tell them to lose the stereo, they can take a couple hundred off since I hate stereos in cars like this.

The other stuff you listed, I'm not interested in.  I also don't live in CA and wouldn't have to pay sales tax.

I don't think it's crazy to think that I'd be able to find that $26K car for $20K-22K once it's had a few thousand miles put on it, assuming no major work other than maintenance has been done to it.  These aren't classic cars that appreciate with age. They're toys that depreciate with use.  At least that's how I feel.  Maybe others disagree.

But even in NC you have a 3% highway use tax so add ~$800 then shipping to East Coast adds another $2k.

Cars over 35 years old only pay a one time $124 (IIRC) registration fee, then about $45-ish per year in tax (my current 914 is $40 per year), and require no inspections or emissions testing.  I have a guy I've used several times to ship me cars from CA.  $900 in a covered carrier.

Being that these cars are titled as 60's era Beetles, that's what I'd register it as here.  No highway use tax for a car that old.

But I'm also talking about buying a used VS, possibly not from CA, so shipping may or may not be less.

Era, trust me, you'll want an oil cooler and you should want an oil filter.

Alan, they worked on the rear discs for a full afternoon, bleeding, replacing master cylinders and finally putting stainless lines in all to no avail, the pedal was super spongy (to the floor!). Kirk finally told me the only way I could have a firm brake pedal was with rear drums...so that's what I ended up with.

"Spongy" is of course air in the lines I bet they didn't remove the caliper bolts and slide the caliper to 12 o'clock position with the rotor ...still ...in between the caliper pads to keep the bleed at the highest point, OR left and right calipers on the wrong side so the bleeders are wrong,  ...I had this happen with a rolling chassis I bought years ago...... the brakes were on the chassis and I just didn't realize the reversed caliper issue until I sent photos to Carey Hines at Special Edition and his man there and told Carey change the calipers L to R and they will be right side up :~)

Will Hesch posted:

Era, trust me, you'll want an oil cooler and you should want an oil filter.

 

I can see an argument for the filter, but I don't like adding oil coolers unless they're needed.  The stock later doghouse shroud and oil cooler combo is more than adequate for engines under 2L, if all the cooling tin is in place.  The 1915 engines from VS are only 5500rpm engines, right?  High oil or head temps on an engine like that would more likely be a symptom of a problem with the setup, IMO.

What temp was your oil getting to that made you feel you need the external cooler? 

I like idea of more oil capacity - OEM 2.5 quarts is not much.  A short added sump (not really room for larger one) or a remote cooler with lines adds about 1.5 additional quarts.  4 quart capacity just seems about right to protect costly metal parts.

Era;

I have no idea what you are looking for, but Troy Sloan, has a really nice speedster for sale:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replic...221979418086?vxp=mtr

WOLFGANG posted:

I like idea of more oil capacity - OEM 2.5 quarts is not much.  A short added sump (not really room for larger one) or a remote cooler with lines adds about 1.5 additional quarts.  4 quart capacity just seems about right to protect costly metal parts.

I know you know this Greg, but for some others-

If you're looking for additional oil capacity to protect the engine from uncovering the pump pick-up during high G moments (hard cornering, acceleration or braking), note that oil in a remote filter, cooler and lines is NOT IN THE SUMP, and of no use in avoiding starvation at the bearings. The filter and cooler are equipment that have their own jobs to do, but they don't provide a larger reservoir of oil for the pump to draw from This is accomplished with a larger add-on sump, an accumulater like an Accusump, or a dry sump.

The VW aircooled engine was originally installed in an economy car, and the 2 1/2 qt. capacity is enough for the rpm limits and acceleration rate of a stock engine when in a stock car and driven in the style the factory intended. The small sump size was purposefully (is that even a word?) designed this way to keep oil change costs down. Even the pump, with it's (what we consider small) 21mm gears, is correctly sized for it's purpose. It's pretty hard (although not impossible) to drive a completely stock beetle hard enough to occasionally uncover the oil pick-up, but put dual carbs, a header on the engine and radials on the car and it's surprising how often that little green light can wink at you from the dash. Lower the car, put sway bars on it and losing oil pressure becomes a regular occurence, and not too far down the road #1 main bearing (the one by the flywheel) siezes and maybe the rod bearings get taken out too. Who out there can say "Rebuild time"?

Was it just last summer that a member, slalomming his Speedster (big engine, stock sump ) had to rebuild his engine for this very reason? Al

art posted:

Era;

I have no idea what you are looking for, but Troy Sloan, has a really nice speedster for sale:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replic...221979418086?vxp=mtr

I'd love one of Troy's cars, but that's out of my price range.  I'm also not looking to buy right now, but I will probably be in a few months - I'm working out some minor things here and there on my Laguna Blue 914 with a 2270.  Once I get that sold I'll be in the market...but for a high teens/low 20's used VS.  I've seen them pop up occasionally, but always when I'm not in a place to buy!  

I've been keeping an eye on the replica speedster market for several years now, and I know exactly what I want.  The car I'm looking for is just rare, and I usually get distracted by easier to find Ghias or 914s when I'm in the market for a car!

Era Vulgaris posted:

Will Hesch posted:

Era, trust me, you'll want an oil cooler and you should want an oil filter.

 

I can see an argument for the filter, but I don't like adding oil coolers unless they're needed.  The stock later doghouse shroud and oil cooler combo is more than adequate for engines under 2L, if all the cooling tin is in place.  The 1915 engines from VS are only 5500rpm engines, right?  High oil or head temps on an engine like that would more likely be a symptom of a problem with the setup, IMO.

What temp was your oil getting to that made you feel you need the external cooler? 

There's a powerful "anti-external oil-cooler" movement in theSamba sect of the air-cooled hobby. It's exact genesis eludes me, but it generally springs from cult of the German engineer.

That our sainted engineer was designing to a "every-man" price-point with materials available to him in post-WWI Germany is seldom considered. That he was designing a cooling system for a 7:1 CR running in an Alpine climate is rarely mentioned. What he produced was an excellent idea, in a Rube Goldberg sort of way.

A 96 plate cooler with a good bypass thermostat and temperature actuated fan switch cannot possibly hurt, and might just save your engine. I've heard every argument against them, and the arguments usually center around "they just aren't needed". I have a lot of stuff I don't strictly "need" on my car and in my life-- people got along for many thousands of years without things like indoor plumbing and a wrist watch. I kind've rely on both of them to make my life easier.

I know you've got experience with air-cooled stuff, and that's great. I've seen mexi-crate 1776s run over 230* in a speedster on a 90* day. The high oil temps ARE a "symptom of a problem with the set-up": but that problem is common to every speedster ever built. You'll find that a lot of what works in a beetle or ghia is inadequate in these cars. Simply stated, the airflow through the speedster engine compartment is marginal at best.

In a speedster, the stock oil cooler needs all the help it can get. 

I think what a lot of folks with VW experience don't appreciate is just how cramped the engine compartment is in a Speedster, which affects air flow and engine temps in a big way. The Ghia in particular is cavernous by comparison.

And too, many of us on this forum drive in western states where summer highs are often 10 degrees warmer than on the east coast (where I think the OP lives). I've noticed that my 2L engine is very sensitive to ambient air temps. It needs a lot more cooling help at 95 degrees than at 85.

Out here, you may not need the cooler for a lot of your driving, but there are many days when you definitely will.

I was aware of the airflow issue to some degree, and I thought that's why VS started cutting the hole in the firewall just in front of the cooling fan.  I didn't realize it was still that big of an issue though.  Most of my experience is with 914s and Ghias, and you generally don't need an aux oil cooler under 2L with those cars.  I have no problem having one- I've got one on the 2270 that's in my 914.  Just from my experience with those cars, with engines under 2L that I've owned, I was never anywhere near close enough in terms of oil temps to needing one.  Even during the dog days of summer where it's 100 degrees with 1,000% humidity (yeah, the South!).  I appreciate you guys actually explaining that rather than just lording it over me that I need it without an explanation.  I guess that's why VS is adding them for "free" now?

So I'd imagine that head temps are an issue as well then?  

1915 cc seems to be the limit with a stock cooler,  the more fittings you have ( external cooler) the greater chance for an oil leak .

Air flow in a speedster can be an issue if you mistakenly plug most areas in the engine bay, as mentioned the engine bay in a speedster vs. a  Beetle are two different designs. The only area that needs to be covered is along the sides above the heads and over the exhaust as to not allow for that heat to re-enter the engine bay. I always leave 1.5" open at the entire length bottom of the fire wall, that with the opening cut for the fan intake you get plenty of fresh air movement .....It's worked in 39 speedster projects.

I really like you Al, but "the more fittings you have (external cooler) the greater the chance for an oil leak" seems to be reaching for reasons not to do what cannot hurt, and can only help. If we can agree that pretty much every engine can benefit from being full-flowed with a remote oil filter, then it's one extra hose to add a cooler (assuming a guy uses a Mocal sandwich thermostat).

1915 may be the limit for not needing one in New England. I'm betting guys in Barstow or Las Vegas or Phoenix would see it differently. 

Era Vulgaris posted:

I was aware of the airflow issue to some degree, and I thought that's why VS started cutting the hole in the firewall just in front of the cooling fan.  I didn't realize it was still that big of an issue though.  Most of my experience is with 914s and Ghias, and you generally don't need an aux oil cooler under 2L with those cars.  I have no problem having one- I've got one on the 2270 that's in my 914.  Just from my experience with those cars, with engines under 2L that I've owned, I was never anywhere near close enough in terms of oil temps to needing one.  Even during the dog days of summer where it's 100 degrees with 1,000% humidity (yeah, the South!).  I appreciate you guys actually explaining that rather than just lording it over me that I need it without an explanation.  I guess that's why VS is adding them for "free" now?

So I'd imagine that head temps are an issue as well then?  

The effect of the hole is greatly over-stated. It's still a big issue. I figured your experience was with VW stuff (besides buses), which generally seem to have better airflow. The airflow in a 914 is not all that great, but they're Type 4s, which run an order of magnitude cooler than a Type 1. 

I always worry how I'm coming off online, but I figure if a guy is asking he really does want to know. I'm glad the tone wasn't too far off. I really do want to help.

In my experience with these cars, head temps are less of an issue than oil for some reason. That reason may be that I'm fanatical about good heads and free-flowing exhaust. Guys that bolt torpedo exhausts on stock heads with a 94mm bore might not be so lucky, but I doubt that the bulk of them would know if they did. Very few people run head temperature gauges, operating on the "ignorance is bliss" theory. I want to know, so I monitor all 4 cylinders (which I've been told is unneeded).

Knowledge is power. You seem like a guy who wants to know. forewarned is forearmed.

Yeah, you never know how written words online come across.  I do appreciate the heads up! 

I'm in the same camp as you it sounds like - I want to know exactly what's going on with my engine.  I've got a 4 channel digital CHT gauge, an AFR gauge, an oil pressure guage, and oil temp gauge on my 914.  Nothing will teach you how to tune an aircooled engine like a set of onboard CHT and AFR guages.  And nothing will teach you the proper way to drive an aircooled car like a digital CHT gauge.  Knowledge is power!

If I ever do get a speedster I'm definitely going to find a way to stealthily add a digital CHT gauge, and oil temp and pressure gauges (not sure how accurate the oil temp indicator is on the replica VDO gauges).  That's info I don't ever want to be in the dark on.

I agree that head temps are such a critical issue that most people know nothing about.  There's a lot of people who I've come across who've owned 914's (particularly 2.0's) who have complained that they're unreliable because the heads cracked.  I always follow that with the question, "What RPM did you typically cruise at?"  They usually say somewhere around 2200rpm.  That's about when I put my hand on my forehead and shake my head!  A lot of people apparently aren't even aware that these cars need to be driven in a different rpm range than watercooled cars, and that they're cooking the heads by driving at that low of an rpm.

But anyway, here's a shot of my setup at the moment.

Era - another of our SOCers, Warren White in Central California) also has a 914 ('75 2.3L) that he Auto-Xs. Here is is a video I took at one of those PCA races. Thought You might enjoy this clip...

Ha!  That's hilarious that you bring that up, because my car is Warren's old 914.  I bought it from him a year ago, last December.  Small world!  Great video too!

Dog leg 5 speed, I see.

Yes, they are dog leg 5 speed.    I had a 914 back in the 80's.  It had a bad bushing, and wouldn't stay in 1st gear.  Luckily, the engine had enough torque to start in 2nd gear

I had a 'dog-leg' 901 gearbox in my old 911 powered VW single cab.  The guy who did the conversion used the stock WV shifter, so there wasn't a lockout between 1st and reverse.

Needles to say, I was VERY careful when shifting from 1st to 2nd.

Ron O posted:

I had a 'dog-leg' 901 gearbox in my old 911 powered VW single cab.  The guy who did the conversion used the stock WV shifter, so there wasn't a lockout between 1st and reverse.

Needles to say, I was VERY careful when shifting from 1st to 2nd.

I know the feeling!  I had another 914 before this one that was an orange '72, and the shifter bushings were totally shot when I picked it up.  You could still nick reverse going into 2nd if you weren't careful.  After a while you figure it out though.

I've been driving nothing but 914's for a couple years now and the dog leg pattern is so ingrained in my head.  I had to drive a friend's 5 speed Subi Outback a couple weeks ago.  The first 10 minutes or so, I had a hell of a time remembering what gear I was in, and I kept grabbing for the shift lever where it wasn't. 

I really do love that gearbox.  If after this 914 I go back to a Ghia or pick up a Speedster, it'll be one of the things I miss most!

No reason you can't put a 914 901 (or from a 911/912) in a Speedster or Ghia. Go with a T4 engine and is a bit easier.

http://www.aircooled.net/vw-tr...-5-speed-conversion/