VW Pan vs Tubular Frame

Mr. LA,

You might want to use the search function as this topic has been covered thoroughly.

I drive a pan-based car and have made numerous modifications to improve stiffness and handling. I'm very happy with the performance.

But who the hell cares? Most of the yo-yos on this site barely drive their cars. What? Maybe 500 miles a year?

They sure look pretty in the garage, though...

hey Terry!  I resemble that remark.

I get about 5-6k miles a year on mine, cuz it's tube-based 

Now to get a beer and watch the fur fly

I drive mine 3-4 days a week year round, cause it's pan based!

I have driven a Vintage Speedster which is PAN based and I found it restricting for my left leg because it angles in so much. I had an intermeccanica which is tube based and found the foot room to be much more comfortable. I have a herniated disc that shoots sciatic pain down my left leg so being able to stretch out the left leg was key in picking a manufacturer.   I loved the way the Vintage drove, but couldn't get comfortable with the lack of leg room....So for me it is very much worth the extra cost.

Another major (tube frame vs pan) consideration has to do with registering the vehicle.   A VW pan based car can be registered as the year of the pan.  In other words, DMV looks at a pan based car simply as a Volkswagen with a different body.  This  will help, especially in California.     A tube frame car must go through the whole Special Construction registration process.  This includes SMOG testing, lights, brakes, etc etc.   If you buy used and the previous owner was luck enough to get one of five hundred exemptions from DMV  (formally known as SB100) then the vehicle is registered as "what it looks like" vs what it really is.  This also exempts you from SMOG so, if you're going to buy a tube frame car ask the owner if it has the CA  SB100 expemption

Good points Larry.  That's the main reason I have stayed away from buying tube frame cars.  Bringing one into California can be a big PITA for registration.  And, selling one that has a California Special Construction registration (SB100) to someone in another state can also turn in to a problem for the new buyer.

For me, buying and reselling pan based cars registered as VWs is the easiest way to go.

PS.  The ones that really scare me off are the ones that are registered as Porsches!

Regarding your "PS"   You have good reason to shy away from such a car.  if it's registered as a Porsche in California and it's really on a VW pan or a tube frame then it's a Felony.   

Larry, could you explain the rule of law that you are referring to?  I am certainly not knowledgeable on California DMV law, but am wondering what you are saying.  Also, is it really OK to call are re-bodied VW a VW?  Something just doesn't smell right with that one.  

This is a copy of a post that an Asst. Attorney General posted on my bulletin board:

www.spyderclub.com  it should answer your questions...  In Calif. Vehicles are registered via their VIN so calling it a VW is OK since the VIN was assigned to a VW, afterall, your replica is just that, it's a replica, not a Porsche

Hi Larry,

You do a lot for the hobby of replicas, both from the knowledge you supply on this site, and from being the site admin guy on the speedster site.  I interpret the SB100 registration law differently than you do, so I hope you take the following in the constructive manner I intend.  Merely because we have differing opinions doean't mean that I'm right and you're wrong.  The law is still changing, and the info below is from my experience.

The overall picture is that the Specially constructed Vehicle legislation and vehicle registration procedure (SPCNS) doesn't change anything for "kit cars", with the single exception that 500 or less cars/year will be smog-exempt from the date of registration onwards.

The vehicle code sections involved in SPCNS do not mention pan-based or tube frame, as the laws apply equally to both.  Tube frame cars have no specific requirement to register using SB100, any more that pan-based cars do.  SB100 is an alternative form of registration, not mandatory at all for any replica.  Example: if they try register using the SB100 registration, and the 500 cars for that year have already registered, they can still register as specially constructed vehicle for the year of registration, i.e., SPCNS 2012.  The only difference is that they will need to smog the vehicles.  They can then reapply for SB100 registration in the next calendar year, and be granted SB100 status if one of the 500 exemptions are available.

The provision that a false registration equates to a felony is very misleading, as the code section (VC sec. 4633(a) requires: "intent to prejudice, damage, or defraud . . . " with a false or inaccurate registration.  This would more likely apply to a maker, such as Boyd Coddington, or to a dealer in high-value "grey market" cars, both of whom have a heightened knowledge of the law, through experience, traiining, or education.  It would be difficult to prove the intent exists for the average owner of one replica, who is a hobbyist, not a dealer.

In legal terms, this is a statute that requires a mens rea, or guilty mind, the specific intent to violate the statute for personal gain.  Absent this element, Sec. 4633(a) has not been violated.  If an owner changed or altered his registration from a replica to reflect an original Porsche, he could be guilty of violating the statute.  However, DMV clerks in CA and elsewhere have been known to make mistakes, and register replicas as all sorts of non-existent makes, none of which actually exist: Ex: 1964 VW Speedster, 1973 Porsche VW, etc.

The clerks don't intend to violate any VC statutes, they just don't know the correct registration procedure.  An inaccurate registration by itself does NOT equate to a felony.  That doesn't mean that it's not a violation of any Vehicle Code Section, but not necessarily Sec. 4633.

This legislation is new, and all of us are learning as we go, especially DMV.  My recommendation to anyone who thinks about registration under this process is to do your own research, using several sources, such as car club sites on line.  Please feel free to comment on, add to, or correct any portions to the above which you feel are inaccurate. 

I'm not trying to muddy the waters, I'm trying to clarify what can be a confusing process.  

Calling all experts...currently looking at a VS in Nevada which was built on a '72 VW but is registered in Nevada as a 2004 assembled vehicle. Does anyone know how that would be handled if I was to purchase and bring to California. Would there be registration problems?

Since the car was previously registered in CA, I wouldn't think there would be a problem.  However, if it was me, I would ask the current owner to fax me a copy of the previous CA registration and find a knowledgeable person at my local DMV office (if that's possible) who could give me an opinion based on CA previous reg.  I wouldn't worry about what NV calls the car.  All states have their own jargon, just to keep us all confused.  Not sure where you live, but phone calls to a few DMV offices near you might save you some time.  Ask for the local expert on Specially constructed vehicle registration.  Many of the car club sites, Cobras et al, list knowledgeable DMV personnel at different offices.  Ask lots of questions from different sources.

Be aware that CA DMV folks don't call it SB100 registration.  They call it specially constructed vehicle registration.  Good luck, and please let others on this forum know what happens. 

DS

If you are interested in a VS then you should call Kirk at Vintage first thing in the morning

and ask him what to do....he deals with the DMV all the time registering his tubs....

I am more than sure he can help you...It does have a VW VIN after all is said & done.

Registration varies from state to state as Larry has mentioned, but the actual title does not necessarily have the same info on it, that is on the registration. If the title has the VW VIN number then it may be just an easy transfer of title and get a new pink slip. As stated earlier California goes by VIN no. regardless what other states do.

More times than not the Auto club can deal with Registration issues if you are a member....

That's not true of drivers license issues or picking up personalized plates....

good luck

I just went through a very similar situation with the silver outlaw Vintage I sold a few weeks ago.  It was registered in New Mexico as a 57 Porsche and prior to that in Arizona as a

special construction.  I wanted to register it as a VW, so I asked the DMV what I needed to do.  They looked in their system and found that the car had once been registered as a VW in California, but that was back in the 90s.  They said it was unusual that the car was still in their system and that they typically drop off after 5 years of no activity.  They told me that since it was still in their system, I could get it registered in my name as a VW but I would have to pay all the back fees to get it current.  Additionally, I would have to do a lien sale of the car.  All the prior owners would have to be notified and if none of them responded within 35 days, the car was then registered to me and i was issued a new pink slip.

Nobody replied and I paid about $1400 in back fees.

As implied in the previous posts, if you live in California, buy a California car.  The same thing probably applies to most other states, buy a car that is already registered in your state.  If you are going to buy an out of state car, it might be a lot easier on you if it is a pan based car, registered as a VW.  Check with your DMV.

Jim, I think you've confused what the Asst. Attorney General stated.   Of course you're welcome to challenge anything he said.  Remember, these are "HIS" words, not mine.    In no way did I muddy the SB100 issue, that's totally different than what was originally asked.     In CA, there are a bunch of replica cars that are illegally registered as a 1955, 1956 Porsche et al.   By the way, even if a DMV clerk erronously registers your car as a Porsche and WOW, you think you've got away with something, you'll eventually get stung.  

Although I haven't heard from an old time member of this board in a long time, (I think it was Dale Bates) he got stung 'big time' by DMV for a false registration as described above and by the Asst. Attorney General Robert Morgester..

SB100 is a totally different situation.   It, as has been mentioned, gives the first 500 people a virtual "free pass"      SPCN can be done to both tube and pan chassis but if a person has a clean title to a VW and the pan is used, DMV will allow the car to be registered as a VW.   Not so with a tube frame car. It will ALWAYS be registered as a SPCN.   Some with SB100 and some without.   

You can cry to DMV that you didn't know your car wasn't a Porsche and wasn't a 1955 model but in just about every case where the "accused" has plead ignorance, they've lost, and some have lost their cars and thousands of dollars in expenses both civil and paying attorneys.   

All I'm doing is posting the facts..   Some of which is based on my 34 years as a law enforcement officer and the rest as supplied by Asst. Attorney General Robert Morgester.

ps, and just for information, I'm the site admin guy on the Spyder site, not speedster site 

Thanks for all of the help!

Jim, I am in the San Diego area...and will see if the Nevada owner has copy of old Cali registration and will also call Kirk (thanks Dr D) to see what he might suggest. Troy, owner says registration is current with clear title. My main concern is getting it over here and being hit with all of the smog related issues if CA wants to carry over the 2004 assembled vehicle title (instead of '72 VW) and the can of worms that might open.

Hi Larry,

I don't think I'm confused.  Like you, I'm only quoting, only I'm quoting the CA VC Sections at issue.  I suppose interested parties can read the VC sections for themselves and determine what it means. 

From reading this thread again, you were the one who raised the issue of SB100, so I don't know what you mean when you say "In no way did I muddy the SB100 issue, that's totally different than what was originally asked". 

I'm not challenging Bob Morgester or anyone, just telling folks what the law says.  Bob deserves kudos from the replica camp for his participation in the legislative process.  Hopefully, everone reads the relevant legislation themselves, then makes an informed decision based on the law as it is written, not on information from me or you.

I believe I stated that incorrect registration may violate some section of the Vehicle Code, just not the section you referred to.  In your long career with law enforcement, you must have been exposed to "specific intent" crimes, such as assault, robbery, murder, et al.  Absent the intent or "malice", these crimes are reduced, usually to misdemeanor status.   

Sorry, that was a typo on spyder vs. speedster sites.

Jim,  I'm not quite sure where you're going with this.  

So, to avoid confusion, I'll let you do all the talking (or writing) about special construction,  registration and Calif. Law and penalties.

Troy raises a curious point: why would anyone have to pay "back fees" for a vehicle that had once been registered in California? If a car is sold to someone out-of-state there should not be any further fees incurred in California. The fact there was a pre-existing VIN trail implies (to me) that there was something incorrectly/fraudulently done somewhere along the line. I readily admit to being, at best, casually knowlegeable about the laws/regs in question here. Any comments or clarifications?

In regard to my last posting and to the post above by S. Slater.   Dealing with the CA DMV can and will be a very frustrating experience especially when something is slightly amiss or off centered.    DMV, in my opinion does not deal in logic.   Things that appear to be black and white or cut and dry can and will become confusing and handled in a way that doesn't seem possible or logical.     I've learned to expect the unexpected when dealing with the CA DMV.   I've also learned that CA needs and wants MONEY and they'll do virtually anything to get your hard earned cash.    So, in conclusion, don't expect the DMV to act logical, don't expect the DMV to abide by the fine print captured in the CA Vehicle Code, don't forget, they're not your friend and given the opportunity, they'll get your money, one way or another.

Larry-I appreciate your over-view of the DMV. It is all true. I hope Troy can provide some input as to the "why" regarding back fees. It just doesn't make sense to me and kinda pisses me off. Allowing the (Calif) government to dig deep in our pockets is one thing, but to squeeze one on the way out just 'aint right.

Remember what I said about "logic"    Throw it out the window and you'll understand..    CA gets their money going in and on the way out.   It will remain that way under our current Political climate in this state.   Afterall, how do you expect them to pay for all the social programs and "give aways"???     As an example, when you did your annual taxes, remember the section that dealt with internet purchases you made?   You're supposed to pay taxes on every item you purchased out of state...   I wonder about those people who drive across the CA/OR border to make a  purchase of a  product in Oregon to avoid paying sales tax..  Are they required to report those sales to CA and pay taxes?

Point taken. I'm going to sniff around and try to get an answer (beyond the obvious political crapola). To be re-visited when I can shed some more light on this issue. Thanks for comments.

SS

ADD: an interesting read:  http://www.jeffersonstate.com/

I'm going backwards on what I originally wrote.     I just got a phone call from Greg, owner of Vintage Spyders.  

He indicated that he had been reading this thread and wanted to clear up some misconceptions that have been posted.     As such, he related that a couple of years ago, he was visited by DMV investigators and by CHP.   During that Investigation, they informed him that "ANY" VW pan based car with a different body and registered as a Volkswagen in California is illegal.   Both DMV and CHP stated that even if you had 2 identical VW's sitting side by side and you swapped body's only, both vehicles need to be issued a blue tag VIN from CHP.    (the reason is because the body also contains a secret VIN that corresponds with the pan VIN)

The investigator went on to say that ANY pan based or tube frame based replica MUST, legally, be registered as a Special Construction Vehicle.    Both DMV and CHP stated that as of now, they are 'very slowly' playing a 'catch up' game attempting to locate such vehicles.    

This means that all the local shops that are creating replica cars and placing them on a VW chassis and then registering that car (in California) as a Volkswagen are in violation as is the end user (owner)      

The CHP officer told Greg that if a """knowledgable""" CHP officer were to stop you and do some investigating on the heritage of your chassis, you "may" be in deep crap.      

Remember, I'm just the messenger but what Greg said makes sense and so much so, that I contacted a retired CHP friend whom I had a lot of dealings with prior to me retiring from Law Enforcement and,  he confirmed exactly what Greg stated.....

So, take it for what it's worth... And remember, this applies to California and no knowledge of other state Law Enforcement and DMV activities are known  

The bottom line is this.   If you have a pan based car,  technically needs a CA blue VIN tag to be installed by CHP and, the registration must show that it's a Special Construction Vehicle and,,,,, If you're lucky enough, you can get one of the (500) SB100 exemptions issued each year.  Otherwise, your vehicle is not exempt from SMOG requirements. 

Honestly dumb/uninformed/senior moment  here: please define "blue VIN tag". Thanks!

SS

It's a replacement VIN issued by CHP for DMV purposes with its own unique number which is preceeded by the letters CA.   It's self adhesive and affixed to the vehicle via special rivits drilled into the body/frame

Ah, yes. I now recall having seen this. Thank you.

SS