VW Type 1 Engine and Porsche Fan & Housing?

Hi all.

First post, so be gentle pls!

The first delivery of parts for my Chesil Speedster will be arriving shortly - exciting! And I'm already thinking of how I'm going to "do" things....

One of my thoughts was to replace the std VW fan & housing (my engine is a 1.8 type 1) for an early Porsche one with the prominant in-yer-face fan. Providing they are both made of metal, I wanted to chrome both the housing and the fan for extra effect...

Questions - does anyone know if it's possible to fit a Porsche fan & housing to a VW engine? Is it difficult? Has anyone done it?

Thanks for your time.

Regards,

Mark

I have been working with cooling systems very seriously lately. Testing is complete on 7 TIV systems and My DTM won the bout...

The TI systems will be getting tested in December and I'm getting geared up for it already.


The Porsche systems cool an engine that has much more surface area and is more heavily finned.The fan makes more air than can escape from the shroud! Its not efficient, as it suickes up as much as 29BHP from the engine.... Most are 14-18 but I have seen 29 on my dyno.

My Type I DTM will be getting super dialed in during my testing. All other systems will be installed as they are off the shelf. After mine is dialed in, thats the way it will be getting sold.

Test engine is a 190BHP 2165cc. No engine tuning will occur between systems.

Jake is right - the Porsche systems usually over-cool and take some BHP to run. However you can "tune" them for less air flow and BHP loss by using a 5-blade fan instead of 11-blade, and/or vary the drive ratio (1.3, 1.67, or 1.8 to 1). If you by a 911 style cooling systme make sure it uses the Porsche 911 alternator and not a modified VW Golf unit.

I prefer the regular type 1 setup - a 1973 181 doghouse shroud (type 3 oil cooler) and VW tin is usually enough for even high output engines and looks period correct.

Thanks for the replies guys (this forum is much more productive than the Speedsters.com!).

I'm in a bit of a dilema now! It appears that things like the BB kit are not particularly straight forwards or efficient. The DTM kit clearly does the job, but looks wise isn't what I was after for my car... but, it's a quality item in terms of performance!! Then of course the std item keeps the car looking like it really is a '56 Speedster!!

As my engine is only a twin carb, 90bhp unit and I've no plans to go further (famous last words!), I guess I don't need to be worried by cooling issues. Essentially what I'm after is something that really looks nice - i.e. lots of chrome..... hence I figured the 911 one would look good all polished up, with the carbs either side.

Taking on board what George said about using a 5 blade fan or down gearing the 11 blade item, does anyone have any thoughts on their efficiency (in relation to the std VW shroud / fan) and ease of fitment???? Also, does anyone know of other VW web sites offering 911 fan conversions??

Basically, after my 250bhp Golf G60, I'm not going for performance, I'm going for style. 90bhp is fine, so long as it's got as much chrome and as little wiring littering up the bay as possible. It's going to be a weekend cruiser, that I can take to shows - but I will not buy a hard to fit 911 item that robs shed loads of power from the car, so whatever I do needs to be a sensible purchase.

Jake - U're site is V good and informative - I'm not ruleing a DTM out just yet......!!

Cheers everyone.

Mark

Mark,

Are you planing to relocate your generator & stuff? I think it's center v. offset requirement with the 911 or aftermarket shrouds???
How's about a stock (or shiney) dog house with the dual carb lnkage running behind the fan housing, then placing a cannister oil filter out front like the 356 engines... It is a look, it can be very sano and if power isn't your upper most concern, why not go with a the 'real deal look' and approximate a 356 engine and engine bay?
MM

Paul....

After 2nites research I think U're right - go for the real authentic look. I can't actually find anyone who says a 911 shroud is easy to fit. Also, the only ones I can find are made of glass fibre, so I can't chrome them up anyway!!!

Bugga, a chrome 911 unit would have looked great!

Thanks anyway!

Mark

My DTM is being made from Cabon Fiber and Aluminized fiberglass as we speak....It will look AMAZING when its done.

Looks kill, engines are for making power, not looking good at idle.

My system took 12 years to perfect!

Chrome is the best way to make something look cheap. Whn I judge car shows the guy that took the time to paint detail his sheetmetal gets 20 points over the guy that took 10 minutes to chrom it out. Attention to detail is the key.

Aluminized fiberglass looks like Billet weave. Its used on the Radome of the U2 spyplane and is tougher than steel for its weight!

Jake get back too your shop and get one done so I can buy the darn thing! Would ya?
DS.

I have a BB 911 shroud in my IM. I've used a Gene Berg power pulley to slow down the air flow.
Bottom line: go with the stock system, as George stated, or go with Jake's new shroud.
Ron

Ron,

Did you install that fan yourself? If so how long and what did it take to put that system on? How about the linkage for the carbs, what did you use? Is the BB simply a bolt on like he he states?
Lastly, how does she cool compared to the last setup you had?

I also had an interesting thought, if the 911 fan puts out too much air would there be any benifit to plumb ducts to the carbs to push air into the carbs to gain back some of that lost hp? I know, kinda wacky but could be a fun experiment.

J-P

Jake - as I said, U're system is definately one to deliver the goods in terms of cooling performance, but with only 90bhp I shouldn't be pushing the std item too far. However, if it looked right, and depending whether I go for the authentic route or not, I would consider a DTM (as I said). Have U got any pics of the Aluminized finished item yet?

I think U're words about chroming are a bit harsh. I am a freelance motoring journalist and occasional Show'n'Shine judge - each car should be judged on it's own merits as an overall product, not based on your personal preferences. But hey, that's not the point and I don't want to start an arguement...... have U got any pics of the Aluminized DTM?!?! Make me change my mind....!

Mark

Not meaning to be self-serving,Heaven forbid, but... I have an interesting fan shroud that is not as big as the dog house style but has to be used with a center mount generator/pulley dealie... I bought it because it reminded me of the 4cam look...sort of a camel-hump (not to be confused with camel toes)

I only mention its availability because it is different, is metal, so it could be chromed and I won't need it with my new set up. If I keep it, it becomes a mantel clock.
Pics available upon request, Mark

MM

Jake is planing a Twin cam type shroud for the T-4. I tink ?
Just for that 50's period look.

I dont know it he has any plans for a T-1 verson with less blades in the fan, or a slower drive pully setup

But he might..

Paul, most of those center-mount shrouds don't have the air directing vanes inside of them so they don't cool the engine evenly (or very well)...

I will be testing a 4 Cam shroud also....it will have directional vanes.

The DTM has directional vanes and deflectors.

Good tip, George. Is the shroud vane'd inside, Paul?

Mark

I have a 2165 Raby with a 911 fan and it works and looks great. If it is robbing me of horsepower it still seems quick enough for my needs.

David, if you look closely you will see some modifications to that shroud.........Its not off the shelf, glad it worked great for you. Howmany miles on my creation now?

If Ron O can show off his motor, I can do the same. I like the looks of the 911 fan, but then my Roodster is certainly not authentic (that's what you get by buying used).

I have concerns about over cooling, but even in this cool October, my oil temperature reaches high enough to make the thermostatically controlled fan on the remote oil cooler operate. As I don't intend on driving it through the winter, it might not be too big a problem.

Robert, you have the largest 911 pulley up top.....it won't overcool with that for sure.

Jake.

Thank you for that advice! I really appreciate you letting me know that, as I was not sure about the over cooling aspect of this fan set-up.

Is there a specific identification number/name for that pulley, if I ever needed to have repairs done?

Cheers

Bob

PS - does that mean I have a bigger pulley than Ron O?

George, This fan shroud was another case of me getting excited at auction...thinking I knew what I wanted. It was a 'look' I wanted to pursue and upon its arrival I thought,
" Is that all there is? Is that all there is?
Well let's keep shopping,let's break out the booze and
have some fun..." sorry Peggy...

Yeah it needs some further fitments to be really effective and one would have to be far better versed than I to plug in additional components, etc...

That's why its next life will either be spent with someone that knows how to maximize its potential, or as a mantel clock with a Porsche face...

WOT, WOT...A FOUR CAM APPEARING FAN SHROUD, BE STILL MY HEART!
MM

The 4 cam shroud will look very period, and if performance is as good as the looks then this would be the shroud for the "authentic" Carrera look. The 36hp shroud also looks period for the "standard" speedster engine and seems to cool fine here in Australia on my little 1914. Please, put a hidden throttle linkage on instead of the horrible hex bar in the front of the fan shroud, not much extra work but looks more original, if that's what you are going for....
The 4 cam shroud is by Dario who builds a lot of fantstic Spyder parts.
Sorry about the double double posts?

Paul, i'd like to look at that shroud, plz send pic to
bruceyoung5@aol.com, thanks

Bear in mind that the true "Carrera" shroud/fan was two fans in tandem with front and rear halves of the shrouding each being separate intrernally (each fan for two opposed cylinders). The first 550's did not even run an oil cooler (roller and ball bearing crankshafts generate less oil heat).

If new aftermarket Carrera "look-alike" shrouds have two fans like the originals they will probably be heavier and require more BHP to drive.

Hmmmmm... maybe I caould adapt one to my SOHC 911-4 engine...

Did you install that fan yourself? If so how long and what did it take to put that system on? How about the linkage for the carbs, what did you use? Is the BB simply a bolt on like he he states?
Lastly, how does she cool compared to the last setup you had?

JP, I installed the fan myself and it took me a while. I'm not even close to being a mechanic, so I had to go slow. It is not a simple bolt-on (at least not for me). I had to grind some metal off of he head fins to get the shroud to fit properly and I had to cut away a big chunk of the back part of the the shroud so my CSP center pull linkage would fit. I originally used the stock linkage, and that was a PITA to install (and it never worked right). I ended up going with the center pull and I'm really happy with it. Empi or Bugpack center pull linkage is crap. The CSP linkage is very nice and fairly easy to adjust.
This system is just not worth the money.
Ron
Bob, your pulley may be bigger, but mine is wider!

The new Dario units have twin aluminium fans as per the original, the fans I think are manufactured in Germany by the original manufacturer, (as posted by Dario). They should be quite a low rotating mass all up.
Now ya talking George, a true twin cam look alike. We're doing a twin cam 4 here in Sydney at the moment.......

Dario Who?? WWW.WHAT? Can you give some info on this guy so we can look into some of this stuff. It all looks great but does any one have dyno #s on this unit? Is it eye candy or a true performer?
DS.

I will be testing Dario's shroud, making it fit better and possibly be marketing it for him..... The fans will be OEM Carrera fans and won't be heavier..

The results will be posted against my DTM in December..as well as as many others as I can find.

Does any one have a web page for Dario's ??

Go to General Non Tech forum and click next tab at upper right hand side of screen, scroll down page and read COOLING OR JUST COOL
It sure helped me. Go with the DTM set up.
DS.

David:

Try this:

members.shaw.ca/dman550/mainpage.html

Bob

Ron,

Thank you for the insight, that's just tthe type of info that I was looking for. For what it's worth, that fan really is a beaut. I'll curb my lusts for that gem a little while longer, must do more research.

J-P

Here's a tid-bit..Dario doesn't build his own motors...has someone else build them. How do I know...the guy that built my motor built Dario's 356 motor.
Ron

JP, I drove to work today, and the temperature was just above freezing. Even with my 911 shroud the motor reached its operating temperature and I got lots of heat out of my 1 5/8" heater boxes. Took about 5 or 6 miles to reach 180 degrees on the gauge and get the heat flowing.
Ron