Water cooled vs. Air cooled

I am contemplating buying a Speedster and the materials from Specialty Auto-Sports regarding the Subaru water-cooled engine (fuel injection - no carburator to adjust; electronic ignition, no valve adjustments every 3K miles, more power, etc.)seem persuasive. What do you all think? Also, does the sound of the Subaru engine peg it as inauthentic?

I would say yes on the sound but that may not matter.

You might want to think about how long you are willing to wait.

Do a search hear if you haven't.

Git yer peanuts! Git yer popcorn!

I've been listening to 4-cylinder horizontally-opposed, VW "boxer" engines since the 1950's, so I know and can tell them from a distance and always turn my head to see the car making that familiar noise.

Funny thing......I do the exact same thing for a Subaru engine. In my opinion, they're so close in sound (except, of course for the poor excuse for a muffler used on most Speedsters) that I will turn my head to look at either of them.

That said, I have a VW-powered, air-cooled Speedster, and I am currently building another Speedster with a water-cooled Subaru engine. I've already built my last VW-powered car.

SAS builds one hell of a car....really. Just be prepared to wait 2-3 years to receive yours. Some think it's worth the wait, some don't. It's up to YOU to decide.

Gordon
The Speedstah Guy from Beaufort

Or you can build your own, like Gordon.

Or an aircooled ride , I've done a few ...bwaaahahahahaha

Hey Terry...throw me a bag of those peanuts!

I was driving home from LA today and on the road I saw several Lexus SC 430's and thought how much like a modern day Speedster they were. But then again, it's not like having that 57' Speedster with that air cooled four banger pushing you through the curves. One of the things that I like about the Speedster replica is that it is so close to the original, not only in looks but in handling...that when I'm driving it, with a squent of the eye, I'm enjoying something I couldn't have back then.

Trust me, some of the best cars ever built, are being built today. I just bought a new Vette and there is no comparison to my 62 or 64 Vettes, it's unbelievable. It's the fastest and best car that I've ever owned.

I guess what I'm trying to say is; 'For Me' I want this speedster to be exactly what it is...beefing up the German four banger, that's cool, but why do you want to put a Japanese motor in one?

There are so many cars on the road that out perform these guys, that are more comfortable, quieter, smoother, faster and I can go on and on...so why do we like them?

Some of these guys are tuners and can make a computer speak volumes to their engines.
I'm not that guy. I can barely make a hammer work correctly, but it seems to me that the under-complicated, air-cooled engine certainly has its merits for the owner/mechanic.
I wouldn't want the Subaru engine unless I understood its ECU and other complicated bits.

Well said, Dave.

As an owner of a SAS Subi-powered 356, I can say it's everything I expected it to be and more, however, As Gordon says, be prepared to wait. I don't mean just waiting but really really waiting. Three to four years is the norm. I have seen a beach buggy using a Subi motor on a VW transmission and using carbs instead of being fuel injected. It ran smooth as silk and sounded good. The owner told me that there's a Kennedy adapter to bolt the engine to the tranny. With a radiator, spare tire and fuel tank up front the weight differences between the VW and Subi would be minimal. No judgments are being made, just reporting as a guy that owns one. A well built and maintained air cooled 356 is sweet as honey and everyone has an opinion of which is best. I prefer blonds but married a brunette.

Hand me some of them Cheetos.

What a subject. Truly, it boils down to what YOU want---period.

I always thought the Subaru route was perfect--a water-cooled boxer engine--what could be better? A modern engine that you could drive anywhere without worrying about breakdowns (or unscheduled maintenance, as Jake calls it.) I still think that the Subaru is a perfect solution for reliability and long trips. Just ask Hoss.

BUT I wanted the experience of the original Speedster--aircooled and "that" certain sound, but with the features a Subaru could provide
---modern and reliable as a hammer. I wanted to go far, fast and have no unscheduled maintenance. I feel I got all I wanted with the Type IV engine. I could have gotten a Subaru engine for less money than what I spent, but my engine gives me all the advantages of the Subaru
plus I can do the regular maintenance myself, it has that certain sound, it's air cooled,runs all day at 75-80 and more if I want and is so close to stock (2,143 instead of 2,000 ccs) that I expect 80,000+ miles out of it because it's not stressed like some other
air coled engines are that have to be stroked to obtain the cc's, frequently causing loss of longevity compared to stock.

That's just my viewpoint today and I completely understand the other viewpoints, in fact I recently praised the 1915 that Roland Rascon builds when a newbie asked about it's reliability.

I doubt I'll ever have as much fun as I did racing Cory up I-81 last year on the way to Carlisle. But I'll try!

It's all good!

I am the numero uno Tubaru pilot and am still enamored with the car. I bought it because I wanted a car that had legs and required minimal maintenance. It has HEAT, A/C and gets great mileage for those long runs to Carlisle. It does not have an authentic sound, but it's loud and I like it just fine. BTW, the Red Man has been to the west coast.

It's not so much the long wait - it's having to put so much $$$$ up front that would scare me off. Do a search on FORUM here. Some have lost $ or had tremendous difficulty getting it back.

Wolfgang, please site examples for which you have definitive proof that this is true.

Pat,

If your still here and want a real Speedster Replica Might I suggest a IM-6.

Ok so it won't sound like a four banger but I'll tell you when you hit the throttle hard it will give you a woody........;-)

Old School Air Cooled all the way!

BTW this car will travel to Carlisle in May.....

Terry,

I have a fresh beer and I'm going for the Pop Corn now........;-)

Just stay away from the hard-boiled eggs, Dave.

It's easy for all of us to lose sight of what these cars are, and we really don't have anybody to blame but ourselves on this site.

Even as we contemplate the meaning of it all, somewhere in the world a guy is coming across a car, or an ad, or an article in a magazine at Barnes and Noble, and thinking, "hmmm... Neat little car. Not ridiculously expensive. No rust issues. Simple/cheap running gear. What's not to like?" Two things happen at this point:

1) A car is purchased, and the guy is happy.

2) He finds this site, and reads what everybody ELSE is doing. This guy has a 2110 in his car. That guy has a 5-speed. THAT guy has a 911 engine in his car. WHAT? There are guys with mid-engined, water cooled, air conditioned "speedsters"?

And the mind reels...

My advice for guys new to the hobby is the same now as it was 10 years ago. Buy a car you like that you can't get hurt on- a nice used Vintage is perfect- to find out if this whole thing is for you or not. There are compromises that will need to be made whether the car is a clapped out home-build, or an IM/6. As different as they are from one another (and they are nothing at all alike under the skin), they remain "coach-built" cars, with some compromises. This truth cannot be escaped, no matter how much money a guy wants to throw at the "problem".

Every time I read one of these "hot button" threads, I shake my head. Everybody pees a circle around their respective tree, trying to validate their own decision in the eyes of cyberspace. Sadly, almost nobody (Thomas Edison, Steve Jobs, and Cory Drake aside) is building a revolutionary, game-changing mousetrap of any kind in their own garage (and especially not something as obsessed over as these cars), so the arguments are moot.

As it pertains to these particular toy plastic cars- to gain one thing, something else is given up. How much is gained and/or lost is a matter of perspective and taste.

I think I may have struck an almost perfect balance, but so does Dave M. and Hoss, and everybody else with a serious stake in their own car. For somebody else, the equation is going to be different. Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors for a reason.

If a guy wants "the essence" of an air-cooled flat 4 (and I do)- then he's going to have to know how to work on a few things, or be near some people who do. If a guy wants "jump in and go across the US" then he's likely to sacrifice a good deal of the "essence" of the original speedster. But, that "essence" is what drives a lot of guys away from this after giving it a try.

Honestly, I'd personally buy any one of about five modern sports cars (ranging from a Corvette to an Elise) before I'd buy a water cooled speedster- but that's because I work on my own stuff, and a BIG part of what makes the car for me is the air-cooled mill. I'd love a Porsche 6 back there, but I don't want the weight, the complexity, or the cost (says the guy with the $10K+ Type 1), so the line gets drawn there for me. But, the fact that I could've bought 4 or 5 of of Bob Garrett's cars for what I've got in mine (after all the "improvements") has to enter into the equation somewhere.

My recommendation? Buy a used air-cooled car (they're half the price). Don't spend more than $16K. Try it for a while. If you like the experience- THEN decide what you'd be willing to pay more for, and what you don't want to give up. That answer is going to be different for everybody.

Thus sayeth a voice of wisdom.

Stan, I think you have got it about right. Thanks for sharing and pulling it all together. Wish I had said that!

Really well said, Stan.

Stan for President!

I like chicken pot pie!

What he said!!!

So do I, but I also like lasagna.

Stan,
You hit it straight on, a great synopsis ! ~Alan

This has turned out to be a really good thread --it should be locked and put up permanently like the "pan Vs. tube frame" thread.

I'd let it run it's course though although Stan's post sorta sums it up and puts a capper on it. Fine post, Stan.

Yeah, me too as I just sold my second Speedy. I feel like a teenager who changes girlfriends every two weeks. It's all about experiencing the moment and then moving on to something different. I don't think I've owned any car more than a couple of years. My wife said, about selling the Speedy, "I hope you find a car you like this time". Hell, I like them all, but not wealthy enough to keep them in a warehouse. My point is, don't try to get the final product on the first try. Good luck! My baby is headed to Hawaii and Thomas will take good care of it.

As long as it has Beehives, it's fine by me...

Thank you, Vince. My self-esteem has been renewed.

Stan!

Nice post.

I'm still reeling....

No, not really. Headin' out to keep working on my build - one of those CMC's in which NOTHING in the "kit" fits!

Stan's post is inspiring ....I just finished the 21st speedster project yesterday rolled it out of the shop and into the garage and covered it up. ( possible buyer next Saturday )
Started to work on Speedster Project #22 this afternoon, making a speedster harness from an aftermarket GM harness I had laying around. ~Alan

Stan could have been a bombardier.
Has anybody done an informal survey of air-cooled vs. waterheads to see how driving habits play in their decision? I really don't drive all that fast in my car (that's relative, I know), since I think it does its most efficient cooling between 70 and 80 mph.
That's not scientific. I just don't think my fan would keep up with the temperatures above 4,000 rpms on a sustained drive the way Hoss' water pump would.
Versus Hoss, for example, I hit the gas on the way to Carlisle and he kept up without any trouble. He didn't seem to be looking at his temperature gauge at all, but I was. Every now and then, I'd look at it just to see if I had hit the 220-degree mark. When I did, I eased up a bit.
Since he didn't have to worry about it, he could have kept hot-dogging all day.
Old Iron Ass Crosby, however, has more or less the same idea going for him as I do, and he does the same thing. Mostly, he putters along at seventy-something, but he's able to hammer down for short stretches with huge amounts of torque and commensurate heat buildup.
I mention this stuff because we don't often put our engine type decisions into context. Without getting mathematically precise, what are the ballpark engine temperatures of a Type I, Type II, Type IV or a Subaru engine at 4,000 rpms for a highway drive, or what experiences have we had collectively we can put some Kentucky numbers to?
What about maintenance? Can the Subaru or Audi-powered guys really just cruiseinto a dealership and have service done? I can't take my car to just anybody, much as I'd like to, and am forced into finding rapidly diminishing parts for some of my hot-rodded engine/gearbox needs. A Type I or a Subaru lump might make sense for amreplacement, when the time comes.
That might be better for the hobby than Batman vs. Superman, eh?

Sorry 'bout the typos. I'm using a rotary-dial phone.

As mentioned a good part of the fun is making them PERSONAL.....
The wife has named ours "The Tinker Toy".....

Leon - that is a very cool pic. Looks like you're having too much fun!

Cory--I have never seen my oil temp reach 210 degrees even on some fast drives in 95 degree temps in Arkansas last summer. I drove tank fulls last year on the way to Morro Bay at 75 and never saw even 200 degrees as it was cool---70-75 degrees.

I have a Setrab single fan pack external cooler.

My engine isn't huge at 2,143 but the torque is 136 at 3,000 RPM and
142 at 4,000. The gearing gives me 77 MPH at just 3,500 RPMs so it's not breathing heavy and stays pretty cool.

Fun, Fun, Fun!

And Leon---that is a gorgeous car!!

Jim and Jack: Thanks so much.... We are very thankful for "The Tinker Toy".

Those are the kinds of useful numbers I'm talking about, Jack. And now I know I'd better get'cha in the first quarter-mile! :)