Water Leak Issues in your Speedster, Yes or No?

Carry a towel for the best of it and a bucket for the worst

Side curtain seal to windshield post (side frame) and then to the convertible top are probably the biggest area to leak water (and cold).

.

My car is a 10-year-old VS - with classic, leak-like-a-sieve 'waterproofing'.

I don't see anything in recent Speedster builds that looks like a substantial design improvement, and that's what it would take to seriously address this. If you plan on driving these cars in the rain, get in a good supply of towels and try adopting a more British attitude towards coping with adversity:

Even the factory described the original Speedster roof as an 'emergency' top (no, really, they did!). That should be a clue. The curved windshield frame just can't meet a side curtain in any way that will seal tightly. Some have tried adding all kinds of weatherstripping, tape, and chewing gum, but the results are usually pretty conspicuous looking, and don't completely stem the flow, either. And there are other substantial gaps in the basic design.

Others have had custom hard tops and more rigid side curtains fabricated, and these will make the car much closer to weatherproof, but they must be individually sized to fit every car as there's no standardization in windshield placement from one example to the next. And the cost is commensurate with any custom fabrication.

By far, the best solution is to move to California where it hardly rains at all most of the time you'd want to be driving anyway.

.

A speedster can be made 98% water tight. Jack Crosby had additional material added to his side curtains that worked.  This is what I do on builds, a hollow "D" rubber in the top header bow groove will resolve that leak, windshield post to cowl and windshield aluminum base rivets being sealed will address those two areas that are prone to leaks. Use the D shaped door to door jamb weather stripping too. Be sure the area under the rear seat to chassis is properly sealed. Your rear view mirror is a dual purpose i.e. to hang a "soap on a rope" !

These Lexan side curtains I did kept water out.

By fabricating some lexan side windows I was able to almost (but not completely) eliminate water instruction in my Beck.  It also greatly improved visibility and, with the addition of some pop-out airplane-style vents, greatly improved ventilation with the car fully enclosed.  That is very much worth the effort to do, but even so, some water will get in around the lower front corner of the windows.  As said above, it's nearly impossible to eliminate that completely.  Even Intermeccanica Speedsters with roll-up side windows leaked a little bit.  It's a fact of life.  A little water won't hurt things if you dry it within a reasonable time.  I made many rainy trips between Charleston, SC and Carlisle, PA in my Speedster.

You won't melt and neither will the car.

Alan Merklin's idea of the bulb seal along the edge of the side window works really well, and careful choice of a similar (or even the same) bulb seal along the side window to windshield seal works wonders, too.  I've sealed along the windshield to side window pretty effectively and most of my water leaks are gone, but I still have a few pesky air leaks that I haven't been able to find yet and I'll just live with them.

You'll never get a complete seal of water and air in these cars.  The 98% seal someone mentioned is on the high end of reality so I agree with Sacto Mitch - Move to sunny California and keep the top down or just seal up the leaks as you find them - Everybody's car is different.

You can also add a latch in the center of the windshield to pull the top tighter. I attached mine to the rear view mirror post/support that goes through the dash. It also relieves some of the stress on the windshield corners, potentially cracking that expensive piece. As Gordon says, everybody's car is different.

Might be a good idea not to go with leather and German wool square weave carpet unless you like smell of a wet dog.

Many Speedsters have NO heat - a little is helpful in keeping the window clear - FOG-X only goes so far in preventing fogging of inside of windows.

That’s a good point.  I did a center windshield latch years ago - It should be standard issue.  
I have a “flow through” gas heater that can provide a LOT more heat than the tiny car needs, and with the through the car airflow, nothing fogs up.  If I did it as a recirculating heater everything would have fogged up.

The biggest thing I noticed when I got great heat was that there are so many tiny air leaks coming from everywhere.   The heater can easily overcome them and keep things toasty, so I decided that they’re not worth chasing down.

And to Wolgang’s carpet comment,  the original Speedsters came only with a rubber mat across the front.   The Sainted German Engineers knew that they leaked!

My speedster top (2016 Beck) seals very well without a center latch. The side curtains do leak as expected. I drove back from Carlisle (2017)  in a deluge of rain and it is quite a miserable experience.

Treat it like a motorcycle and avoid days where it is going to pour. A little drizzle is not that bad but sealed up in a speedster is quite claustrophobic IMHO.

Carey at Beck has offered a few folks including me a Convertible D with a removable hard top and role up windows. However the mechanism for the soft top is not available so it’s soft top delete. Just an idea. Waiting list however is getting lengthy.

Just a response to Lane’s comment about IMs. I had an IM Conv D. And it never leaked not even in a 2 hour hard rain on a drive to the Outerbanks. Amazing engineering. Why did I sell that car. Stupid.

Yeah, the Convertible D wouldn't - just the Speedster.

It's a convertible sports car - it leaks.

Dress accordingly, and carry towels and a sponge...

I have an original Convertible D - Roadster folding top  if Carey wanted to borrow it to copy…….

This stuff is much appreciated. How about flooded carpets from pan-related leaks? The only mention I heard of that was the German-square-weave wet dog comment...

@Dave Graziano on my 10 hr drive from Carlisle PA to Chicago suburbs it rained at least half the time. I had the top up, side curtains in and blue painters tape to "seal" leaks. Carpet was damp but not sloshing water. It took about half a day our with a portable blower fan and no smell or any other issues. This was highway driving so it was pretty miserable. I have been caught in a rain shower and the top is fine, as @Sacto Mitch said the roof as an 'emergency' top.

I think all the VW pan based leaks can be fixed. Alan mentioned an often occurring open void behind the seats where the fiberglass body doesn't perfectly match the pan.  Spray foam can be used there.  When mating body to pan I used many tubes of silicon.  I also followed the CMC build manual which has the builder applying fiberglass all around where the body meets the pan. 

.

'Pan-related leaks' aren't the only ones that will soak the carpets.

We got caught in a summer cloudburst up in the mountains once, and before we could get the top up, there was enough standing water in the pans to bathe in. It took three days of parking out in the sun for things to dry.

Our nylon carpets eventually seemed to recover, but this still isn't great treatment for the thin, steel pans just underneath. Even a fiberglass Speedster will rust in places if you encourage it to do so.

They say Toyotas are pretty good in the rain.

@550 Phil posted:

Carey at Beck has offered a few folks including me a Convertible D with a removable hard top and role up windows. However the mechanism for the soft top is not available so it’s soft top delete. Just an idea. Waiting list however is getting lengthy.

Has Beck made any yet or a link to them?

They have but AFIK it has been years since the have done one. If you are Facebook you can see them in BECK OWNERS GROUP. Once there  just do a search for Convertible D.

This one was being built in 2016 when my car was being built it changed hands in 2018 and is absolutely beautiful.

thanks Joe, I'm specifically referring to a convertible D with a hardtop

@550 Phil or @chines1 would have to answer that one but guessing this may be the first.

@imperial posted:

I have an original Convertible D - Roadster folding top  if Carey wanted to borrow it to copy…….

Thanks but I have both an original and a replica D top frame here, so not necessary.  

@WNGD I have D hardtop molds but they are a new acquisition and would be reworked for a better fit to the replicas.  I have not done a D with a hardtop yet.  

I live at Lake Tahoe and my car is winterized. I enlarged to window curtains to seal in the folds. I added the center clamp for the top and windscreen. I added external piping from the heater boxes to bypass the frame and get more hear/defrosting. I added a temp control valve to prevent oil from going into the cooler below 80c. Most importantly I added the original thermostat with the vanes and flaps for faster warm up of the engine. My car is virtually water free in a driving rain. Because no cold air enters it also get quite warm until the ambient temperature drops below 36F. Also the defroster still doesn't get the job done. I am going to add bilge fans in the heater lines next. Best advice is do not drive in shitty weather.

You need to expel the moisture that you are breathing out as well as the moisture being driven out of the cabin air by the heat. You need fresh air to circulate.

I didn't fog up because even with the extra heat, there were air leaks from the top sitting on the Spyder's rear deck. That's why I didn't put rubber on the bottom of the vinyl top. The fresh air exchange kept me fog free.

I see the numerous tiny air leaks as a “feature” of our little cars.

Put the top up and side windows in, start the heater and your feet are nice and toasty, while your face and head are refreshingly cool with enough air leaks to keep it from fogging up.  I think those Sainted German Designers were pretty smot, don’t you?    😉

.

So, I’m reading through this thread and wondering how helpful all of this might be to Dave.

You remember Dave, right? He’s the new member who started the thread. He’d been reading some old threads about the horrors of driving these cars in the rain — threads a lot like this one. I think he ‘got’ the problems and all the machinations folks have to go through on their own to survive in the wet after taking ownership. And he was wondering if any of the Speedsters being made today have improved things much so owners no longer have to MacGyver their way to happiness.

I think the answer to that question is still ‘No’, especially since you can’t get a Convertible D from Henry any more.

A bigger problem may be what is implied by someone who asks that question.

It means they might still be thinking of one of these creations as a ‘car’, as that term is currently defined by most of the civilized world. Making that assumption must lead one to grief for a whole host of reasons, the least of which is whether one will end up cold, wet, and exasperated in a rainstorm.

After all, just climbing into a Speedster with the top up and side curtains in place is an exercise no modern vehicle makes you endure upon entry. You’ve got to curl down and under the edge of the top, somehow slide in, in that position, and then uncurl yourself up into the top. Your view out the driver’s side has now disappeared, the view out the passenger side is like being in a bunker, and the view to the rear, through some wrinkly, funhouse-mirror stuff is like…well let’s keep this civil and just not go there.

Turn on some rain, some pools of water in one’s lap, ‘windows’ that are perpetually fogging over, and things do not improve.

These are conditions that only grim, determined men will rationally consider facing — generally, men who are committed by peer pressure to being somewhere several hundred miles away that common sense would otherwise have them avoid. And inevitably, these are men without trailers.

For this, and for many other reasons, the Speedster really isn’t a car. Most come to their senses and begin to understand this after about, what, maybe 1200 miles or so? The rest refuse to admit their error. They dig in and insist, “No, I understood this from the start and I like…yes, I like this, I want this. I know exactly what I’m doing.”

Blind denial is a terrible thing to witness. Overcoming it is said to be one of the essential twelve steps.

I hope Dave comes to his senses in time.

.

None of us have any idea what you're talking about, Mitch. It's as dry as a bone and super-easy to live with in all 4 seasons*.

_{*if you live in San Diego}

Thanks to Mitch for bringing the original question back with good perspective. Besides the old posts with wet war stories, I had heard the advice to think of using one as you might a motorcycle…along with Kirk’s description of the top as an “emergency” cover. I was hoping that newer builds might have improved on this aspect but that’s obviously not the case. It’s just good to have a proper set of expectations going in! Thanks for everyone’s comments

@majorkahuna posted:

I live at Lake Tahoe and my car is winterized. I enlarged to window curtains to seal in the folds. I added the center clamp for the top and windscreen. I added external piping from the heater boxes to bypass the frame and get more hear/defrosting. I added a temp control valve to prevent oil from going into the cooler below 80c. Most importantly I added the original thermostat with the vanes and flaps for faster warm up of the engine. My car is virtually water free in a driving rain. Because no cold air enters it also get quite warm until the ambient temperature drops below 36F. Also the defroster still doesn't get the job done. I am going to add bilge fans in the heater lines next. Best advice is do not drive in shitty weather.

Where do we get an additional clamp?
Do you have pictures?
Can you describe how to mount the clamp, please?
Thanks

If you have a Beck, as I suspect you do, it would be best to contact @chines1 and ask.  They use different top latches than CMC (my car) and maybe Vintage (but I don't know for sure) so use and placement may be different.

If your top is seating evenly across the top windshield frame and still leaks it may just need a new/different rubber seal, rather than a third latch.

I can post photos of what I did on my CMC if that'll help.  Mine ended up being water tight at the top of the windshield.

The center clamp that VS used was flat hook that captured the top of the mirror rod that extended 3/4" straight out from the windshield frame before the 90 degree bend and was secured to the center of the header bow with a black threaded knob.

For anyone asking about the top seal on a Beck, I may be a  bot biased, but  properly installed and adjusted I feel it's the best sealing header bow out there.  More stout that most others, on par with IM (although shaped differently).  The #1 key is fitment to the windshield, which can vary and is adjustable where the header bow attaches to the scissor mechanism.

Think about it this way: you have 2 compound curves, let's call them 1/2 circles for the sake of this discussion.  Lay those 2 half circles on top of each other and pin them at the ends.  They have one position where they match exactly, any movement left or right, or any rotation up or down and it creates a mismatch, resulting in an air gap and leak.  Fitment issues left to right are very uncommon, especially since our top latches are jigged for both the header bow and the windshield frame., so the most common thing you see is rotational mismatch, especially on tops that are not often used and may be tighter or shrunk compared to when they were built.  So... pinned on the ends (at scissor top frame) and rotated down it starts to open much like a mouth, with bigger gap it he middle.  Picture Pacman's mouth for simplicity sake...

Older Becks have a closed cell foam seal that will, over time, compress and take a memory.  Newer Becks have a D bulb seal that is less prone to doing this.  This seal Can make up for a slight amount of mismatch, however the key is to make the part fit well 1st and then use the seal to close an even gap...

@americanworkmule posted:

Where do we get an additional clamp?
Do you have pictures?
Can you describe how to mount the clamp, please?
Thanks

My older IM Speedster had a smallish header bow and with the top clamped down by only the two outboard latches, invariably it would "bow up" a bit in the center at highway speeds and of course plenty of water would come in and remind you of something you need to do. In a real pinch, you could just clip the center down with a spring clamp. Not wanting to operate too much on my header bow I made a clip like you see in the attached picture. Pinch down the center of the bow and push the clip on. It worked pretty well.

I got my clamp from Kirk. It is a simple device that you countersink into the windshield. Then is is hooked under the bow and as you screw it into the windshield it pulls the top down to seal. I get now water in from the windscreen at all. Carey mentioned above he has a solution as well. My car is in storage for the Winter so no images.

@chines1 posted:

For anyone asking about the top seal on a Beck, I may be a  bot biased, but  properly installed and adjusted I feel it's the best sealing header bow out there.  More stout that most others, on par with IM (although shaped differently).  The #1 key is fitment to the windshield, which can vary and is adjustable where the header bow attaches to the scissor mechanism.

Think about it this way: you have 2 compound curves, let's call them 1/2 circles for the sake of this discussion.  Lay those 2 half circles on top of each other and pin them at the ends.  They have one position where they match exactly, any movement left or right, or any rotation up or down and it creates a mismatch, resulting in an air gap and leak.  Fitment issues left to right are very uncommon, especially since our top latches are jigged for both the header bow and the windshield frame., so the most common thing you see is rotational mismatch, especially on tops that are not often used and may be tighter or shrunk compared to when they were built.  So... pinned on the ends (at scissor top frame) and rotated down it starts to open much like a mouth, with bigger gap it he middle.  Picture Pacman's mouth for simplicity sake...

Older Becks have a closed cell foam seal that will, over time, compress and take a memory.  Newer Becks have a D bulb seal that is less prone to doing this.  This seal Can make up for a slight amount of mismatch, however the key is to make the part fit well 1st and then use the seal to close an even gap...

Carey You just provided some insight as I have your latches on Rafa's Outlaw header bow that want to pop open when in the closed position.....

@americanworkmule posted:

Where do we get an additional clamp?
Do you have pictures?
Can you describe how to mount the clamp, please?
Thanks

Aren't you getting a Beck Spyder? Don't worry about it, their header doesn't require it.

My new(to me) Beck Spyder top has two latches and only needs two. The top is 90% fitted to the car so don't know anything else.

1.   Mine has never seen a drop of rain and never had the top up.

2.   I don't think I would fit height-wise with the top up anyway....