Watercooled IM

We went to the BBQ at Intermeccanica last night and Henry was finally willing to let me take pictures of his latest R&D project. The engine is a 1.8L VW Golf engine. Brand new, and fuel injected. It produces about 100HP. Not enough for you? Well, the VW catalog includes lots of factory options for these engines including turbos, chips, double overhead cam heads, etc. If I understood correctly, he got his first order last April.
Ron

Ron, this could be great news for Californians and others who live in states that require smog tests on specially constructed vehicles. I met the gentleman that ordered the car while I was in Vancouver many months ago. Henry, Bill and I actually discussed possibilities for this approach back in late January. I believe Henry is planning on using NEW engines.

Wow. That's the exact same engine we use in the h2o spyder, except we start with the 2.0L Nice.

Carey

Hopefully Henry will leave enough room in the engine area for some of those aftermarket pieces. Especially a turbo!!!! Now that would be a cool little engine, Pun intended.

Looks like good fun to me!!!

It may be only 100hp, but it should be pretty nice with the fuel injection and the computer making constant adjustments. It would get incredible gas mileage and at the rate were going it won't be long until were at 4 dollars a gallon.

Tell us more, like what gear box is it mated too and where is the radiator going to be placed ?

It's mated to a VW tranny, and the radiator is in the front of the car with electric fans drawing air.

There is plenty of room for a turbo. This engine is amazingly compact, and leaves tons of room in the engine compartment. We were even speculating about there being enough room for an intercooler.

If you can get the ok please post some pictures of the front mounted radiator.

I have the carburettor version in my speedster,It only has 90hp,enough to get you into trouble,It will be interesting to see the clearance on the top side of the engine,looking at mine its got very little headroom above the tappet cover,I now also have to find a gearbox with at least a 3,88 diff my 4,125 whines in 4th and obviously revs to high.

I wonder if somewhere down the road Henry will move to a mid engine frame? Being able to use an Audi/VW 5 speed gearbox would be nice.
How does the water cooled 1.8 compare, (weight-wise) with an air cooled engine?

Going to the Golf tranny is possible, but why bother, unless you go to the 6 speed. That would be cool, but also not necessary.

They haven't weighed it, but the guess was that the watercooled engine weighs about 70 pounds more than a type 1.

This project is the pre-production prototype, to get the frame set up, the plumbing figured out, etc. I expect the next one will be a production model with a 150hp or so.
Ron

yep- mid engine sounds cool then maybe a bit dificult to get to - or split the body to lift up from the middle,I think I have seen that done before,as far as weight difference goes I have no clue,I had never driven a speedster before mine,then I drove a crazy conversion with a ford V6 hanging in the rear which still had drum brakes all round ,very twitchy.Now that 150hp sounds mean,that should burn some rubber.

I think it's really exciting that Henry is doing R&D on a roadster with a Golf engine. The VW engines are real tuneable.

There will really be a great bunch of choices out there for Speedster and Roadster enthusiasts....Type I and Type IV's for the traditionalists, Suburu boxers and VW 4 bangers for the modernists.

I wonder if the Suby & VW guys will go at it like the Type 1 and Type IV camps!

I like the idea of going with a brand new motor, since it's a brand new car. The idea of buying a new car and having a used motor put in it always seemed strange to me (I realize it was done to keep the costs down).
A 150 hp VW water cooled motor with a six speed tranny would be very nice.

Jim, what was the pricing like on the new 150hp engine. Anyone know what the cost is for the engine that they are curently testing.

Although I'm a die-hard air-cooled guy I can see the beauty in the 1.8. That engine has been in production for years and the parts/after market supply is excellent. I did a little research on costs, and a new 1.8T (Turbo) in the 150 hp version (there is a 180HP too) is very affordable. Add a chip, headers, built tranny, clutch, and etc and that engine will pull over 200hp easily. The torque on the 150hp version comes on big at 1450 and stays that way all the way through 5000 (155 ft lbs)... bone stock.

It's not for me. I got into this hobby because of the simplicity of design in car and engine. I prefer the sound of an air cooled flat four and Webers. But for some, this may be the ticket, along with the SAW Cab. FWIW, I saw an Audi Sedan with a 1.8T, and with some streetable tweeking, plus some outlaw software, it was pulling 300hp. Now that would be something to see in a 1800lb IM.

And, it's German made.

I don't think your going to get any debate over the VW versus the Subaru engine like the type 1 type 4 debate. But you may get some debate about mid engine configuration versus aft. I personally like the idea of the aft position in order to keep the back seat looking like the original. But I have to weigh it against being able to use the entire Suby drivetrain and the suby will still win for me.

As for handling the midengine position should be better, but we will have to get together with Carey and Henry next year at Carlisle to really get a fair comparison. And of course the SAW car.

I like the idea of a VW engine in the back, but as yet am not convinced about putting a a water-cooled engine in the tail end, especially one that produces significant horsepower. I'll be curious to see how the weight distribution specs out and what effect the end result will have on handling. These are very interesting projects and I look forward to following the developing stories.

As far as brand new vs. doner engines in the Tubaru, Steve informed me that for about 2K more I could have had a new one. I'm don't think that this was an issue for me, since a low mileage engine seemed perfectly acceptable. Suby engines that are well maintained routinely run 150 - 200 thousand miles and have lots of loyal owners who will attest to this.

The Subaru is a great engine. That was a generous offer on the new engine, John. One big plus of that water-cooled engine.. oil changes are a breeze and there's no valve lash to set every 3,000, eh?

Steve, your latest Cabrio pics really show off the detail and thought you put into your build. I like the interior color, especially the light colored binding to go with the Squareweave. And I zoomed in on your radio... especially that nice face plate.

I'm back!!!! I'm not feeling to well, but hopefully will be better by the weekend. My interior colors and exterior colors and overrider tubes were largley a copy of Dale Bates speedster. (lets face it I practically copied his car, but as a cabrio). Its funny the red seats in there for test driving make it very obvious, but when my ivory seats go in it will look slightly different.

My radio and the speakers were inspired by you Jim, as I think they look great on your car also. I guess the system sounds real good. I will have some great pictures of the car and me driving it around as soon as I'm in a little better shape.

The 56 conversion with taillights, shinedown license plate, and the hella supertones were inspired by the late George Brown.

And a special thanks to John for being the first to go through something so new and all the extra time and effort to being the first.

You're welcome. Just don't ask me to do it again ;-)

Been traveling for the past couple of weeks and had no access.
Hoss you get a huge thanks!

Many months ago Henry agreed to create a water cooled fuel injected 1.8 Turbo engined roadster as my build. I've only posted on the site a couple of times because we decided to keep the profile low until more facts we available on what he could do. It made sense for my car to be the first as I live in Vancouver and that meant he could keep a close watch on it to make sure he'd gotten everything just right. If you've met Henry you know how important that is to him and his brand.

It's been a long wait and sometimes I go a bit crazy driving the family 1.8 T Jetta, imagining I'm in my 356 punching it out of the lights; but the bird shit splattered on the hood and the Winnie the Pooh sun shades puts a quick stop to the fantasy.


I still haven't finalized the build, but am trying to make the car pretty special :

Ruby Red, with a Tan interior. I can't decide on the top colour yet. I think black would retain the most heat in the rainy winter.
4 Speed Freeway Flyer Transmission, unless we can find a good 5 speed
5 bolt wheels.
Disk Brakes
Anti-sway bars
Luggage Rack
Seats with higher backs for a good head rest ( I'm quite tall )
Expanded front truck to hold my camera bags
Good sound system
Extra Bright headlights
Child Seat restraint hooks so I can drive my daughters around in the front seat.
Yada Yada Yada.

The most fun about the car was working out the options, but if anyone has some good ideas, especially with respect to suspension and handeling, I'm keen to design the car best Henry can build ( and I can afford )....

Now I wait. I swing by IM once every month or so and watch everyone elses cars get finished and shipped. But it'll be worth it.


John Gajdecki

John: Thanks for your post and for your pioneering spirit. Must be something in the name with you and John H. Please keep us posted. Cheers.

I wouldn't put on a black top with the tan interior, just stick with the tan top, it will be very nice.

I'm not sure why you would worry about the heat, your going to have water from the engine to run a lot more heat then an aircooled motor could do, so it should be pretty good.

Are you doing the 100hp engine?

Hi John,

Congratulations on your new water cooled roadster! I think we met last spring at Henry's the day you ordered your car.

If it were me, I would go with the black top with ruby red. I know you have seen Jim Ward's beautiful speedster in that color combination. Even with a tan interior I think it would be tough to beat. Also don't forget the rack and pinion steering it makes a big difference.

So is the car Henry building yours? Keep us posted.

Brooks

UPDATE : WATERMECCANICA

I talked to Henry the other day and his engine supplier is concerned that a 1.8 turbo would generate too much heat when tucked in the back of the car, so we are looking at a 2.0 with modified heads and cam. My goal is to be in the minimum 160hp range, and a non-turbo engine would be prefereable to a turbo ( the turbo lag on my Jetta is pretty obvious ) but I don't want to add toooooooo much mass to the back of the car.

The rear engine design does lead to a car that is actively trying to kill you.


As for the colour, I'm looking a the Ruby Red ( which is suddenly becoming trendy with new cars ) or a warm silver, almost brass or champange coloured. You guys are right that I don't need to go for the black roof purley for it's heat absorbant properties, but I do like the look of black roof on a lighter coloured car.


Is is just me or do these cars look way beter in person than they do in photographs ? I just can't find pictures of them, aside from the rear view on a wide lens, that really captures their style. All of the shots in the calander being exceptions, of course.

Gz

A lot of our pictures suffer from bad lighting, or camera operator error. Also these are digital pictures that are many times compressed or reduced to make it easier to download and email. And some people like me still have an old digital camera that didn't have very good resolution. I make my brother do the nice pictures. Hopefully he will be doing a series of pictures for me next week!!!!

I can't wait. I haven't been over to see the finished product and I don't have the time right now. Looking for a face to face next Spring ;-)

John, I too was under the impression that a rear engined car would snap oversteer if pushed too hard. For that reason I have taken my car autocrossing with Bruce Gordon and am pleased to report that Intermeccanicas actually understeer and are very controlled. Even the 2L VW engine shouldn't weigh in much differently than an aircooled type 1 so I think you will find it handles quite well.

Ya, the look of the car and the fit and finish will be great, but I'm wotking with Henry to make the car the best handling that it can be, within the limits of the layout and the hardware. We'll be putting in all of the anti-sway bars, but I really don't know what the best solution for suspension is. A fried suggested the order of importance when building ot tuning a car is :

1) Brakes
2) Suspension
3) Engine & Transmission

So I'm delighted to see I have the final one more or less taken car of, the engine anyway. We are still looking for a skookum transmission for this engine vehicle / combination. I'm going for the disk brakes front and rear, but don't know if it's worth going past the stock items available at IM. ( OK, nothing is really stock as you can build whatever you want ) so any advide would be great.

Gz

I would say go for Rack and Pinion steering for sure. Henry has a nice package of sway bar/shocks/torsion bars that works well together. If you want more and have some more money in the budget for this project, you could go for 911 suspension.

My 2 cents worth.

I think rack and pinion is one of the nicest upgrades a person can make.

John,

I got the Rack & Pinion option and think the car is much nicer for it. It is much lighter on the wheel (feels like a lot less castor).

I went with the CB Wide 5's and Disk Brake package. I love the way the CB package looks, but I am not sure it is worth the extra money. Jim Ward went with the CB's and the Bivens and it looks, well prefect. If I were doing it over, I would go with the SoCal Wide 5 units and the stock disk brakes. Scott Sloan has the SoCal units and his car looks fantastic without hub caps. These cars don't weight much, so you probably won't have too much problem getting stopped with either package. Another negative of the CB units is they are 1" wider than the SoCal units, so you need to have your rims offset changed, unless you go with a custom wheel like Bivens.

I also went with the Koni Shocks, but I am not 100% sure I would spend the extra money on these units again. My car handles great, but the front suspension is a little stiff. Joel Schlotz, who has been doing these cars for almost a decade, drove my car and the first thing he noticed was the stiff dampeners up front. I think even George Brown had mis-givings about the Koni's. Now having said that, I have not touched the compression or rebound setting yet, so I may be a few clicks away from perfection. If I get my Fuel Injection install done before you have to make a final decision, I will dedicate some time and we can see for sure. If you can't wait that long, I would go with Henry's "stock" choice. Henry has forgotten more about these cars than anyone else is likely to learn, so anything he specs as a stock item will work pretty good.

Good luck on your new car. All of us are waiting and watching with great attention.

Hi John,

I agree with both Bill and Jim. I would suggest you talk to Henry about the Bivens wheels. If your budget can handle it, they are not only a work of art,but they make a noteable improvement in handling. When Henry has driven my car he always remarks at how well Jim's and my car handle with these wheels. Ask Henry for the details, as he can give a more accurate review of the benefits.

As far as shocks go I agree with Bill. My front is a little too stiff. This may be partly due to the tires I am running. Yokohama ES 100's 195/60 15. On one hand these tires have great grip and look great. On the other hand they are loud and and stiff on rough pavement. I am thinking of changing tires this winter. Anyone have any suggestions? After I sort out the tires,I will work on adjusting the Koni's.

Good luck John.

Brooks

Hey Brooks. I am pleased with the Bridgestone RE950s (Same size). They are an all weather sport tire with high ratings on the Tire Rack as being a decent sport tire with very good traction on wet surfaces. The price is right too (I think about $15 per corner above the Dunlops) They are quiet and seem to have good wear (7,000 miles).

You nailed the big plus on the Bivens outside of the good looks. I think ours were around 9 lbs per wheel and with the CB AL discs there was a considerable loss of unsprung weight. HR passed those comments to me as well.

John. I was just reading your post with your choices/option list and the follow-up posts. It sounds like you have the colors dialed in. On the top, the tan or black will look good.. it would be hard for me to pick with the tan seats. I suggest you consider the dual electric seat heaters (low-high). They are good on any car, but on a top down Roadster/Speedster they are even better when you are driving on those top down 50'-60' days. It is a low cost option that I would think would be a must in the NW or BC.

I agree with Bill's thoughts on the brakes. The CB AL W5s are very nice with certain wheel choices, but limit you to having wheels with the off-set custom made. With the Bivens they are a natural (to repeat Bill's comment). On the brakes like Scott's you have a wider range of options on mounting up wheels. Bivens come with the offset done to specs and these brakes allow the use of a chrome or powder coated steel Wide 5 10 slot. So, you can go with Super Caps, an open wheel, or a custom wheel. I think the centers are attractive and may look good with the Ruby/Black/Tan mix you are using.

Ditto on the sways and torsion bars. I happen to like the Konis, but that may be just a matter of driver's preference. I would see if Henry has cars with both (Konis/stock) so you can judge for yourself. I especially like them on the rear with the lowered stance on mine.

Rack and Pinion is #1 on that suspension/steering list IMO. And the custom column IM has available is a plus in looks (an opinion), tightness, and the sturdiness of the blinkers compared to a stocker VW/356 Column. I would also go with the bigger trunk space with the larger 15 gallon gas tank, or even consider a fuel cell. George Brown did some research on Fuel Cells for the IM, and using Search on the SOC you may be able to pull up his old posts.

The 1.8 is an interseting set up. Keep us up on the progress.

John,

I had neglected to mention that the Bivens do work better. I guess I was mesmerized by their shocking good looks (along with Fuchs, they are the best looking wheels on the planet), but they actually do work much better than my steel wheels.

I know there are probably some Doubting Thomas' out there thinking, bah humbug, that is a bunch of hooey about the Bivens causing the car to handle better, but it is true. I drove Jim's car and they do cause the car to handle better (not as much better as they make it look, but noticably better). It is probably the combination of being rounder (yes my steel wheels are not all that round) and the much less unsprung weight really makes these wheels work.

If you do decide to go Bivens, you will have to study Brook's and Jim's cars carefully, as you will have to decide between Brushed and Polished finish, a task tougher than it sounds.

As with anything, there is a price for perfection.

Yes, the price of perfection....

I've very interested in the Bivens wheels. I saw something at IM a few weeks back that were five bolt (?) that hid the disk brakes behind them. They looked very sharp and I asked Henry to remember what they were for me. You'd think I could have remembered.

I work in the film business so we tend to work like dogs for a year, then have some time off, sometimes lots, sometimes too much and somtimes none. Depending upon when Henry can finish up my car with respect to the job I'm on will determine how much I can spend on the extras. My wife is giving me a pretty long leash as she knows I'm pretty keen on doing things right. Can't help it really.

My current build specs :

- 4 wheel Disk Brakes ( power brakes )
- Extra Tall seats ( to put headreast at a useful neck-saving hieght )
- 2.0 Liquid Cooled engine
- 5 Speed transmission ( if we can find the right one )
- Rack and Pinion steering
- 24mm reinforced rear torsion bars
- 185/65 HR 15 performance tires on 5 1/5

John,

I forgot to mention, be sure to get the power brakes. I see your build already has it spec'd. I did not get that option and Dale Bates did, his car is much lighter on the pedal getting it stopped, which actually makes panic stops much easier to modulate.

On the stereo, I would say save your money. I got a nice stereo and woofer, etc. I found I use my ear buds and portable MP3 player exclusively when driving my Roadster, I can also take all 600 of my CD's along as well. The fidelity of any stereo in a top down Speedster is well, poor at best.

I also have come to believe the radio pod-less look is more original.

Just my opinion, if you get a great big stereo, it won't suck, but I would just put that money towards Bivens, now that is real music.