I am quite happy with my CB 1815 (despite the pesky Webers) and would recommend Pat Downs to anyone. Regarding Roland Rascon, I have never heard a negative about his engines or support, so I'd think he was a safe choice as well.
Stan,
Let's be fair. In reference to the quote: "I won't put a CB engine in your car, because they have Webers and Webers burn cars down," from the largest manufacturer of replica speedsters in the world. . . .
That 'manufacturer' never said he would not put a 'CB engine' in one of his cars; however, he did tell (both Blanco and) me that he doesn't recommend Weber's any more because recently they have been known to caused some fires in a few of the cars he has sold. In other words, he was just trying to play it safe.
Incidentally, this afternoon I had a very fine talk with Pat Downs at CB Performance about building an engine for the car being built for me by VS and even Pat confirmed that there have been some recent fires attributed to Weber's that had been fitted to engines in a few replica Speedsters. The primary reasons were because the Weber's were either improperly installed by a few engine builders or the owners of the cars may not have been diligent in making sure the carbs and filters were properly maintained.
Cliff
Cliff,
I'm speaking to the "why" not the "what". Pat and Glenn (and me, although I'd never put myself in their category) are trying to point out that it's not the carburetors (the "what") that are the problem-- it's the lack of mechanical aptitude (the "why") that burns cars down. As I said, Weber IDFs (and IDAs, if they have the extra progression ports drilled) were the high-water mark of what is possible to achieve with an analog fuel metering device. Properly jetted, filtered, and balanced, they are almost EFI perfect.
Some Germans car manufacturers used them, and it's saying something that Germans used anything made in Italy.
What they are not is a "take it out of the box, and bolt it on" proposition. Kadrons are billed as being such devices, but in my experience all carburetors need to be jetted, etc. to work optimally. The issue is that "optimal" for a set of Kadrons is far short of optimal for a set of individual runner carbs.
I went down this road once. I had a set of IDFs that whipped me badly on a 1776. I just couldn't get the hang of it. When I wanted a bigger engine, I had a half-decent 2110 built with AJ Sims heads... and one of his super-duper 46 mm Kadron sets. I had over $1K in a set of Kadrons before it was done.
To be brief: the car barely ran. I ended up calling Art Thraen and beginning a long and fruitful friendship with him. I bought a set of Dellorto 40s, and just paid what he was asking. I told him what I had (engine wise), and where I was. He had the carbs jetted to where he thought they should be, and sent them out to me. I bolted them on, and the transformation was instantaneous. It was almost perfect.
Art sold the shop a few years back to Justin McCallister (his mechanic). Dave the carb guy is still doing carbs for them, just like he has been for 20 years. I've had Art and Justin build three engines for me since then, and I've had them rebuild 40s, 45s, 48s, and 48 tri-jets (all Dellorto DRLA). All of them are an order of magnitude better than any Kadron, Brostal, Solex, or whatever else is the single-throat flavor of the hour.
What I'm trying to say is that it's not the carbs. It really isn't. Carbs are a "what", and engine fires are a "why". Plugged jets. Horrible linkage. Not letting the car warm up, and having it spit and fart as you drive down the road. None of these are the fault of the carbs, and all of them would occur no matter what analog fuel metering device you were using.
If you want "jump in and drive", none of these things are going to hit the mark. For that, you need EFI.
Blasco posted:Hi everybody,
I just talked to Kirk from Vintage Speedsters.
I said that he can install a CB Performance engine
for my Speedster, however he was a little scared
about it because CB uses Weber Carburetors.
He said that Webers catch on fire and that freaks
him out a little bit. Any thoughts on that?
Thank you for your input.
Blasco.
What type of driving do you intend to do, Cliff ?
Stan,
No offense; however, please re-read my post above since I thought I had made it clear that I am interested in having Pat Downs build an engine for me with Weber carbs. In fact we talked about it today.
My concern was about whether someone might believe that the largest manufacturer of replica speedsters in the world had said. "I won't put a "CB" engine in your car, because they have Webers and Webers burn cars down. . . ."
The truth is that he ever once said anything negative about "CB Performance" during his discussions with me or "Blasco" who started this thread. I should also say that when I first approached him about building my Speedster he made it very clear that if I wanted any special engine builder to put my engine together it would be fine with him. And why not, it's to be MY car.
Cheers,
Cliff
David Stroud postedWhat type of driving do you intend to do, Cliff ?
David,
A little over 50 years ago I use to compete in Hill Climbing. Well, I'm probably too old for that now; however, I've managed to stay in good physical shape and my reflexes are excellent; consequently, it should come as no surprise that even though a man at my age should think twice about it, I still love zipping through the twisties when ever it is reasonable safe to do so. I think you get the point.
Cliff
Stan, I'm not normal and my Mother knows that. She turned 94 yesterday and has plenty of experience with my attitude. Stan, I really like you. For that reason and to keep you on the straight and narrow path, my new Soob is a Frankenmotor....2.5 JDM carcass ( 43,000 KM ) at $900 CAD , with rebuilt 2.2l heads, Ford EDIS ignition thru a Megajolt ignition controller, Thunderbird ignition wires, Saab radiatior.
I've had enough experience with the Weber 32/36's and so ripped out the FI and it's related wiring and sensors and center mounted the carb pretty much where the FI intake box was. Carbs are more fun and you know that. It's worked before for me and it works again. I just didn't want to go thru the FI wiring curve when I know what would likely work for me. And it did.
Your knowledge and experience is extensive and entertaining. I just wish some people buying new cars or their first car would better evaluate / reveal their expectations and driving habits and thereby make better choices. A basic 1915 or other variations for instance with a single 32/36 carb in the middle would provide a very reliable entry level and happy ride. With some experience on that, the future might be better approached with less pain.
Cliff Presley - Charlotte, NC posted:David Stroud postedWhat type of driving do you intend to do, Cliff ?
David,
A little over 50 years ago I use to compete in Hill Climbing. Well, I'm probably too old for that now; however, I've managed to stay in good physical shape and my reflexes are excellent; consequently, it should come as no surprise that even though a man at my age should think twice about it, I still love zipping through the twisties when ever it is reasonable safe to do so. I think you get the point.
Cliff
yep. and .I'm not from Missouri.... :-) We'd probably ride together on about the same level. Good luck with your buy.
Cliff:
Your're doing your homework, and that's excellent. I wish you nothing but blessing and good favor as you move forward-- you seem like a guy who will do just fine in this hobby. You're getting an engine from Pat, and are therefore a country mile past where most guys are at this point in the process. I'm anticipating following your build, as it's always fun to watch other people spend money. 
David:
You are unique in your approach to cracking the nut and solving the riddle of why people drift away from these cars. Everybody loves them, only a few people buy them to start with, and almost nobody keeps them long-term. I can count on one hand the guys who actually enjoy driving them long distances. You are one of those guys.
I try to solve the riddle by defining clear borders I won't cut across, and then working inside those constraints to come up with what I want. It's expensive and laborious, and requires a lot of time.
You solve those problems uniquely, by defining what offers the most return for the least investment. You draw on a considerable skill-set knowing what's important and what's not, and just heading down the road that makes the most sense.
Your "Frankenmotor" 2.5L Subaru is classic "Stroud". I'm sure there is a bunch of power left to wring out of that motor if you had a custom $XXXXX ECU and big injection package. But a center-mount Weber carb works just fine, and provides plenty of power. You wanted an engine with a modern design, water-cooled to allow "go anywhere" capability, with enough displacement to scoot the car down the road at a "modern" clip-- but something that is easily tunable and maintainable. I'd bet that if there was a place to put a distributor on the motor, you might have done that as well. The fact that it makes reliable power for about 1/3 as much money as a nice Type 1 is a nice bonus.
Perhaps this is what the hobby is pining for? I'm not sure, because I don't really understand the headlong rush towards the door as it pertains to the (hated) Weber carburetors. I do find them elegant and wonderful, and I wish more people understood that the carbs aren't the issue.
But I'm realistic enough to know that in my part of the world, in the heart of farm country and heavy manufacturing, driving (much less working on) a car with any analog device is something that most people can't/won't do. At this point lawnmowers have automatic chokes, so the idea of listening to the engine and allowing it to warm up, etc. is a lost art. People just want to jump in and go. They want a CEL, with an OBD port to plug a code reader into so they can just replace injector 2 and move on.
That's not you or me (and probably not Cliff, from what I'm reading), but it is a LOT of people, and those people would like to drive a new fancy dune-buggy with something other than a lawn-mower engine, or even a carbureted Subaru. Carbs are fun, but they're not fun if you don't understand them (much the same way I have zero fun trying to connect my "ChromeCast" device to an updated computer, etc.).
I just want to sit down and watch a movie, and most people just want to get in the car and drive.
You've pretty much nailed it, Stan and here's one picture you might find interesting that led me down my chosen path. Yes...a distributor in a 2.2l Soob. That left me a real "out " if my EDIS effort didn't fly and I could truly be old school and get away with it.
Oddly enough, a mid '80's Ford Escort ( I think it was ) bolts right into the front of the Driver's side head when the engine is now mounted backwards in a Speedster . There's a dust cap there which is held on by two bolts and a key way right in the camshaft.
Attachments
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One more thing, and I'll just shut up.
Blasco posted:Hi everybody,
I just talked to Kirk from Vintage Speedsters.
I said that he can install he can install, however he was a little scared
about it because CB uses Weber Carburetors.
He said that Webers catch on fire and that freaks
him out a little bit. Any thoughts on that?
Thank you for your input.
Blasco.
I read that, "he can't install," etc. It was my lack of thoroughness that caused me to misread it. I also must have missed the part where Cliff said he was having Pat Downs build his engine, and that he was using Webers.
However, the title of this thread is
"Weber Carburetors catching Fire"
and the first post in this thread does say, " he was a little scared about it because CB uses Weber Carburetors. He said that Webers catch on fire and that freaks him out a little bit."
I am trying to create a record within this thread (for people searching down the road), that calls "foul" on this. I'm just not buying it. Webers are no more prone to catch fire than any other carburetor. They require more care and feeding than EFI, but so does any other carburetor.
Stan:
I've had two of Henry's products, both with Weber carbs. Once set up properly for the specific engine in your car, they are pretty well idiot proof (well, we know how that works). Seriously, all cars use to run with carbs before EFI, and people just got used to tuning them a little, or else having their mechanic do it.
I am probably the poster child for the "I hate Webers" crowd given my history with mine, but I don't believe that the design is bad, just the current implementation. As I mentioned in another thread, I have major throttle sticking problems when warm. This situation has been worsening with time and I would be willing to bet that it's due to poor manufacturing or poor quality materials - problems the original Webers didn't have. My frustration with this issue is somewhat ameliorated by the knowledge that I safely completed the Carlisle trip (>1500 miles) for the 10th time in a row. I have around 46k mi (77k km) on the car and cannot imagine owning one without driving it.
The moral of this story is that the current crop of Webers may not be as good as the original but, assuming you don't mine doing regular maintenance and you have a talent for occasional trouble-shooting, they shouldn't be feared.
Lane: Before you go to the trouble of pulling the carb off to fix it (and all that ensues in the aftermath), you might try this, on the premise that it might be sucking crud in past the throttle shaft and gumming it up just enough to dry out and work hard (although Dave's measure of pulling the carb, removing the shaft and honing it gently to make it fit better will certainly work).
OK, with the engine running after a cold start when the idle smooths out, liberally spray carburetor cleaner right at the throttle shaft where it enters the carb body. Do both sides, although I would suspect the actuator side as the culprit (it sees more torque). Do this several times over a minute or two, and try increasing the engine RPM and letting it return to idle. As it returns to idle, spray the hell out of it again and do that several times.
After you've hit it with carb cleaner, do the same thing a couple more times, but THIS time use some Marvel Mystery Oil on the shaft where it enters the carb body. Two times should do it.
If THAT works, then you won't have to pull the carb. If it doesn't, you're not out anything and it's time to do Dave's approach and cure it for good.
Good idea, Gordon. I'm all about saving time and effort.
For those afraid of the antique technology of carburetors- MILLIONS of cars used carburetors before all this fancy pancy fuel injection was invented and they didn't just randomly burst into flames. The carburetors themselves are reliable pieces of equipment; it's (as has been said earlier) the poor install or lack of maintenance that are the issues here.
I know that, for the most part, we're preaching to the choir here, but for any one unsure after reading all this; start at the top and read it again.
Does it hurt anything to add a little marvel mystery oil to your gas at fill up?
People ( really OLD people, it seems) have been known to add Marvel to their gas on the supposition that it will somehow do something positive, like lube the valve stems, lube the throttle parts and such as it passes through the fuel and combustion systems. I'm not convinced of that, but OTOH it seems to cut down on sludge a bit in very long-use engines if it's added to the oil. It certainly doesn't hurt anything.
The Marvel site recommends 4 oz of Marvel to every 10 gallons of gas and then suggest that it does miracles to the engine, resulting in longevity and higher gas mileage. I'm not convinced of that, either.
It IS, however, a damn good penetrating oil - far better than WD-40 and it's cheap enough to try in your gas for a month or so (3-4 tankfuls) to see if it makes a difference - then let us know.
What i remember of Marvel added to the gas is - - - - The exhaust always smells funny.
Yup - my Grandfather and I think my Dad used it in that way. Okay... since I bought my car I admit I have been putting this stuff in my tank at every fill up. I will say this - I don't have carburetor problems and for some reason my engine oil looks clean after 3000 miles.
I hate webers, its the reason I got out of speedies..and I do add ATF/ PS to my dodge ram diesel fuel,,running like a top 80k. Never tried Marvel.
Rusty S posted:Yup - my Grandfather and I think my Dad used it in that way. Okay... since I bought my car I admit I have been putting this stuff in my tank at every fill up. I will say this - I don't have carburetor problems and for some reason my engine oil looks clean after 3000 miles.
Rusty, how does adding it to your gas keep the oil clean? Are you adding it to your oil as well?
That's the "Mystery" of it. 
Theoretically, the use of it in your gasoline will cause better sealing of the rings as it "lubricates the cylinder wall above the rings on every stroke", and the valve seats and stems, too. Better sealing means that less carbon blows past the rings and valves to mix with the crankcase oil and so, your oil remains cleaner than if you did not use it. I cannot confirm or deny this. My uncle, Waldo, used it religiously in his 1948 Ford which he finally sold around 1969. It ran like a top all those years.
My Dad put it in his school buses until he grew the business enough to buy new buses at four-year intervals and we switched to Frantz oil filters (the oil never got dirty with them, either).
As I said above, it certainly can't hurt anything and might just make things better for your car - Who knows?
ALB wrote: "The carburetors themselves are reliable pieces of equipment"
Oops, Sorry..... I guess I'm just used to EFI. (and Dells)
But then, I remember rebuilding Strombergs, and Carters, and Rochesters, and......"Quadrajets" (triple yuck - bending wires to "tune" them? Really?). Compared to some of the junk we had in the 30 years before EFI caught on, Webers are downright GREAT! And look how good Solex, Bing and Mikuni carbs are? Love em!
And for those of you who hold naught but disdain for Webers, you've never rebuilt (or tried to keep running) oil-damped, English Strombergs. The guys who understand them, I mean TRULY understand them, have every right to wear Druid robes and throw chicken bones.
BTW: Bing carburetors, used on many, many BMW motorcycles, are Stromberg slide-piston carbs done right. Set 'em once and forget 'em for years.
Never used "mystery oil" in my cars but is good for lubricating my pneumatic tools. Also I was attracted to the old red and black can that said "MARVEL MYSTERY OIL"...It was sort of demonic in it's presentation ! I still have a black and yellow can of "Dutch Boy" white lead. The only thing I ever used that for was to read the ring and pinion tooth contact patterns. No wonder I had to get 45 chelation "IVs" to get rid of the heavy metals ! My wife says the I got T.B. too ! Her version of T. B. is tired butt and that's because she thinks the Iron in my blood turned to lead in my arse. I'm all better now though.............Bruce
crhemi (Bill) posted:Rusty S posted:Yup - my Grandfather and I think my Dad used it in that way. Okay... since I bought my car I admit I have been putting this stuff in my tank at every fill up. I will say this - I don't have carburetor problems and for some reason my engine oil looks clean after 3000 miles.
Rusty, how does adding it to your gas keep the oil clean? Are you adding it to your oil as well?
I only add it to the gas. I have no concrete evidence that it works it just makes me feel good - like I'm doing my engine a solid! You know my engine and I are friends and we have some great conversations.
Gordon! How dare you disrespect (by inference) my beloved SUs (similar to Strombergs)! I consider them a wonderful carb that is much less troublesome than Webers and easier to tune.
Now where did I put those damn chicken bones?
Call Roland 562-340-2904. HB Aircooled is the new name of his company
They say Marvel Mystery Oil is great for everything, but that's hogwash.
It's absolutely terrible in pancake batter.
But it's GOOD on Brown Rice ! Better than palm oil !..................Bruce
Mitch;
That might be a good recipe in which to use WD-40.
Coconut oil n banana pancakes.
I'm wondering what you keep in your kitchen pantry, Mitch.
Blasco posted:Hi everybody,
I just talked to Kirk from Vintage Speedsters.
I said that he can install a CB Performance engine
for my Speedster, however he was a little scared
about it because CB uses Weber Carburetors.
He said that Webers catch on fire and that freaks
him out a little bit. Any thoughts on that?
Thank you for your input.
Blasco.
I wonder if running the battery hot lead through 4 jagged drilled holes in the pan bulkheads without grommets would freak him out???
Lane Anderson posted:Gordon! How dare you disrespect (by inference) my beloved SUs (similar to Strombergs)! I consider them a wonderful carb that is much less troublesome than Webers and easier to tune.
Now where did I put those damn chicken bones?
The Strombergs look a lot like SUs but are nowhere near as tunable.
Terry Nuckels posted:I'm wondering what you keep in your kitchen pantry, Mitch.
Nothing but the best, Terry - Rincon de la Subbetica extra virgin olive oil, Philz Ambrosia coffee beans, and Brad Penn 10-40 weight.
My experience with CB and Pat Downs has been very good. All their parts are top notch and their customer service is great. I could have built a 600 hp 434 cu in small block Chevy for what my 2110 CB engine cost but that was my choice. I added a lot of custom touches which cost a lot but it came out exactly the way I wanted it. My engine has dual Weber 44 IDFs and it ran perfectly when I took it out of the crate. I didn't even have to adjust the idle speed. It is a little rich but I'm pretty sure the altitude difference between here and Sacramento is the reason for some of that. It's better not to be too lean. If you have Pat build your engine you will not be disappointed. Also since you are in NC I would recommend having the engine run on the dyno to tune it and make sure there are no problems with it.
Oooooooh!
Mitch is a Brad Penn Man!
I bet you make a FIERCE Fish Taco, too!
Ed, I'll take a Stromberg over an SU ANY day! Easy to work on, parts are now readily available and GREAT customer service.
On the other hand, there are SUs:
Had a Stomberg 97 tri-carb set-up on my Ford Flathead. Unfortunately (or maybe, fortunately) is did NOT come with customer service.
The SU's on my Austin Healey?
But once I bought their ridiculously expensive "Dampening Oil" (I swear that it's fish oil) and got them set up right, all three of them worked great til way after I sold the car. Yes, I had one of those rare, tri-SU set-ups. If you see one, run away....Run Away!