Well CRAP!

Took the car out for a nice ride in the cool weather today and it ran beautifully. Got home and puttered around a bit before starting on a little tinkering that I wanted to do. I finally figured out that a rattle that has been bothering me for 5 years was inside the break drum - specifically, the cross-link between the e-brake actuating arm and the leading brake shoe. There is a little spring clip that I am missing that stops the rattle. While in there I was going to shorten the spring on the e-brake cable so that it would operate properly (thanks for the tip, Tom B.!). I finally had the right socket and a long enough breaker bar. While it took a good bit of force on a 2' bar, I don't think it was torqued to the proper 280lbs, so that might have also cause my occasional rear brake squeal on low speed turns. This should have been an easy job, but...

After getting the drum off, I noticed a bit of black grease on the drum itself. When I looked at the brakes, the shoes were slimy. While I couldn't see a lot of transaxle grease leaking from the seals, it clear that must be what's happening. So now instead of a quick little job, I have to drain the tranny, replace seals and gaskets, clean everything, and install new shoes. I haven't checked the passenger side yet. If I'm lucky, I only have to replace the seals and gasket on the driver's, but I need to do both sets of shoes regardless. Lovely, just lovely.

I know it's a PITA but, do the seals in both sides while it's down...you'll have peace of mind.

Master Mechanic Lane wrote (and you could see the frustration in his note):

"I have to drain the tranny, replace seals and gaskets, clean everything, and install new shoes"

What? Drain the tranny?

Nine, Mein Herr!! Use the old back yard VW Mechanic trick:

With the car resting on the floor, jack up the affected wheel WAY UP THERE and put it on jack stands such that the oil from that axle is drained back into the tranny. (I exaggerate a bit, you only have to get the axle slightly above horizontal, so the wheel will only be up a foot or so).

Once it's secured on jack stands, pull everything off that side, change the seals and put it all back together. Make sure you check the axle bearings for excessive play before you put it all back. If it wasn't too gooey than the new seals should do the trick.

Estimated time if you know what you're doing; About an hour S-t-F. If you don't, maybe an afternoon.

I think you're right about that side being a bit loose and that's why it leaked, although my books are showing 217 ft. lbs. for that castle nut, not 280 as you mentioned.

gn

Yup, rechecked the book and 217 is correct. I wondered about doing what you suggested to keep the oil in. That'd make the job muuuuuch easier.

As for replacing the other side, if it ain't leakin' by now, me messin' with would probably make it start. I'll wait until I get in there to find out. Do I just replace the paper gasket and oil seal, or do I also do the sealing rings and anything else?

Lane---I had the same thing to fix just before Mountain Madness. Lost a whole day over it and rather than day one being from Hot Springs to Nashville, I did the entire trip from H.S. to Asheville---long day.

My discs were ruined too and I had to replace them. I had lost a LOT of transmission oil too---good thing I didn't nake the trip way low on trans fluid.

I have a good diagram of how all the parts go on (seals, o-rings, etc) if you need it.

cheater bar time if i remember

If you want to retorque the nut easily and accurately, get a torquemeister.

Definitely want to get the torque right, but don't want to pay for something I'll probably use once. I will see if I can borrow or rent a BFTW from one of the local auto parts places.

This is old school but has been my MO. 4' pipe slid down over a breaker bar and give it a good grunt being sure to match the castle nut notch to the cotter pin hole not the most accurate but it works.

Lane, if you are ever going to replace your brake shoes again you will use it more than once.

I have used mine several times and I only have about 300 miles on the car.

It multiplies the torque by 9 so you don't even have to grunt.

If you arrange the torque wrench so the handle passes over the center of the drum you don't have to worry about the drum rotation.

It also works on the flywheel gland bolt.

I just really enjoy using a tool that works well.

With the 4' pipe you really have no idea what the actual torque is even though it might be sufficient.

If you want to pay for the shipping I will lend it to you.

Quite a while ago I proposed having a tool registry so we know who has what tools we can borrow.

Yeah, that castle nut is something. Fortunately for me, Bill Demeter is set up with an impact wrench with the large bit.

Lane..... I've warned about damaged bearing spacers several times on this site..... While you have everything apart, pull this part ( easily done by hand ) and scan the surface where the seal lip rides.... Any major pitting, ding or scratch will cause a leak..... Generaly, if you can feel it with your finger nail, it needs replacement.... When re instaling this part, I wait until I have the seal in position then slide the oiled spacer onto the shaft and through the seal.... Sure is easier than trying to get the seal over the spacer...

This forum is like a lot of meetings I used to attend when I was working - discuss the same thing over and over.

Lane: Look here: https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=17177

Oh, and torque 'em up to 250+ to keep them from leaking again.

Leon - Yeah, on the aircooled.net site they say "This is the little spacer that the rear axle seals rides against (and usually puts a groove in, causing that leak you can never seem to fix!)." They want $19.95 each, while cip1 has them for $6. Not sure why the big difference. Was planning to replace them so I don't have to go back in. I only want to do this once as we are in prime Speedster weather.

Thanks, Gordon. I wasn't sure what to search for, but I remembered that thread.

Mike - Thanks for the offer. I will check first into borrowing or renting locally.

THIS is why this site - and the folks who frequent it - are so great. This is also (referring to Terry Nuckels thread) I wound up with a Speedster in the first place.

The price difference is due to the China / junk parts verses the good stuff.... Good stuff is usually machined to a better finish and hardened...(not heat treated / tempered)

Kinda expected that. I'll pay extra for the good stuff.

Oops---I said that my discs were ruined---I meant my pads.

Jack, Check your email.

Lane you know better.
Crosshatch sand the rear rotors. And you do need to do both all the way,, seals and pads all both wheels.. A trick you can flip the seal race if the rest of of is slick and unworn from a previous repair. Ckeck um like Leon said.

Tell him Leon! It's not a eather or thing .

Your rear brakes will brake uneven if you do only one side. It's a safty issue. Any shop would do so as a rule

Oh I will definitely do the brakes on both sides. I was originally planning to only fix seals if they were leaking, but I changed my mind on that last night. Gonna do the whole shebang.

Barry - I have drums, not disks in the rear. I'm gonna clean everything with brake cleaner and make sure the drums have no contaminants. Everything else will be new.

The torque-meister is only 60-80 bux,it pays for itself the first time you use it!

Cheapest one I've found locally that'd do 250lbs is $170 at Harbor Freight. For $60-70 I'd go ahead and buy it.

Lane..... Do the math, put the proper length cheater bar / pipe on the socket assembley and go for it.... You are torqueing the inner bearing race on to the axel, and there is normaly enough clearance in the axel housing to accomadate a good amount of over torque...Unlike front wheel bearings....

hey, can you explain which seal gave way and caused the leak. transmition seal? and then fluid ran through the inner CV then the axel tube then the outer CV and then past the outer wheel bearing? I have been playing with bugs,911/912 and 924's for a while...never encountered this one. would it not have seeped past the axel boots or pee'd out at the transmition first?? just curious.

Paul

Mine is swing axle, so the axle shafts are full of oil (I think). Probably due to insufficient torque, the seals and/or O-rings leaked a bit. It's not like everything is covered in grease, but there is enough to render the rear shoes pretty much useless. I haven't disassembled them yet, so I don't know for sure.

maybe you'll get lucky and its only a wheel cylinder that went south.

Paul--axle seals.

Lane..... The axel tubes are fed oil when you turn corners.... There is always a small puddle of tranny lube behind the bearing after you sling a few lefts and rights.... Thats why the oil level drops during break in.... Do the repair, go for a "spirited" drive, then come home and top off the tranny..... ( Oil to bottom thread of filler hole )...

AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

The damned spacers are too wide. I can't get the drum back on far enough to fit the cotter pin. The aircooled.net website says nothing about different widths, but cip1 does. WTF! Turns out the cip1 price is $13-something, so it may or may not be as good a part, but it oughta fit since I ordered stock width instead of the 4.5mm-wider-than-stock one. Of course I'll have to wait until next weekend to fix it.

Oh yeah - I had to adjust the new shoes all the way in to get the drum back on, even though the old shoes didn't look visibly thinner. Even so, the drum was a tight fit. Any ideas? I've only done one side since I have the car tilted and don't want to lose transaxle oil.

This is why i distroyed a 72 super beetle to get A IRS frame for my D . I like the 1968 rear end gearing, But just don't like the axle boots and swing. More mantanice required to keep um up.

Lane if you have a machine shop friend near you Just have him cut them down to match the old ones thickness..

OR

I have seen one other trick it's used to repair a GM harmonic ballancer. Its a spool that is pressed over a seal race to restore a seal surface . A engine builder might have repair spools in that size. on hand .If you have a Mic to gauge it You can call around .

If not that??? Junk yard time

Or Just order some more that are correct .

You don't have many options. Like andy would Say CALL THE MAN

I'm assuming the emergency brake is off?

Center the brake shoes by pushing the brake pedal a couple times. I'm guessing you have the brake assembly mostly together -- from the sounds of it? Try to center the shoes up inside the drum that way, then disassemble everything and try reassembly. Nothing should be difficult to take off or put back, since they're all new and/or clean.

If the parts don't need to be machined to fit, you may luck out.

Are you good with adjusting the brakes? It's not all that difficult, either. Spin the wheel until brake drum is aligned with one of the stars (early drums like mine) or take out the later-model rubber caps if that's what you have on your Beck.

Turn the adjuster jobber with your screwdriver until the brake shoe slightly hisses against the drum. I'm assuming you don't have the little VW doodad?

I think that hiss is called 'dragging,' in manuals, but to me it feels like wood just barely dragging on concrete and makes a light raspy noise when it's "right."

If your brakes are out of their ideal centered positions, you might have to touch the brake pedal a couple times while you're dialing them in.

When they're making that light raspy noise, turn the star-adjuster wheel in the opposite direction a few clicks (three or four at most) so the wheel rotates easily. People think that's difficult for some reason. I don't think so -- but I pretty much went through every possible combination of brake parts before I finally got 'em right.

Do the same thing to the other side. As long as the car's in neutral, you can do them one at a time.

Don't forget Larry Jowdy's 60-0, 40-0 and 20-0 mph brake break-in method. (I'm pretty sure I got that wrong, but just don't forget to search for it.)

Good luck, Dude!

Easiest thing was just to order two new spacers - already done. As for adjusting the brakes, I generally suck at it, but while I was in there I looked around and figured out how it worked, so I should be better at it this time. It helps when you can actually see the parts work.

The only major problem here is that he car is gonna be down for another week while I wait for the new spacers. The originals were obviously worn and might well be the cause of the seepage.

Lane, how many miles do you have on her now? Everytime that you have an issue, I wonder when I'm going to have it. Look on the bright side. My car went into storage on 11/1 and won't be out until 3/31. At least this year I can get to it and enjoy Bill's company and tutiledge. Monday, the halon unit is going in.

Remember, don't put those spacers in dry, you ruin another pair of seals.

Oooooo, thanks TC. That may well be the cause of this leak. Any specifics on what I should lube them with?

Tom - I have about 30k miles (~50k km) on it. I believe this leak was due to the aborted switch to discs back in the spring. Prior to that there was no leakage. BTW, I am doing your e-brake spring shortening trick while I'm in there.

Thanks, but Carey gave me the clues.

Lane ..... Lube the spacers with any thing ... Tranny lube, motor oil, chasis grease, etc.... Just don't slather it on..... All thats required is a very, very thin film.....I usually put a little on the inside of the seal at the lip as insurance..... Too much will cause the same brake problem as you had....

Jut as Leon mentioned, use what you're most comfortable with, but just a smidge. I tend to use Castrol bearing grease for everything these days, used to use white lithium. Castrol has an across the board quality throughout their products that makes things easier.

When I need something, I just grab for the same lable/diffferent item and never end up disappointed.

$250.00 ?? That is a lot for the tq. tool. Maybe we are talking about different things. This tool multiplies tq. and you can torque to 250+ ft.lb. of torque with only 25 or so ft. lb. of force. These are available for about 80 bux or so and EMPI also distributes them. They are Taiwan/Chinese made,but are actually a decent quality tool that does what is advertised. Good luck on your fix,Lane,atleast it is a good addiction.

here are some links!
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7036


http://www.ebay.com/itm/TORQUE-MEISTER-MULTIPLYER-FYLWHEEL-DRUM-TOOL-/400215086826?item=400215086826&vxp=mtr