Wet Tub - need advice

Looking for advice on sealing the speedster up. I went for a drive this weekend, It rained. I ended up driving about 20 miles on wet roads. A first for me and the speedster. Noticed some dripping along the windhshield, expected it, and from the side curtain areas, no surprise there. What I didnt think would happen is the car would get saturated from the floor boards up.
What is the best way to dry these cars out? We have spent alot of time with a shop Vac trying to suck all the moisture up. It helps, but just does not seem to be drying the carpet out. If I try and peel back the carpet the felt padding that is glued between it and the floor boards shreds, it is saturated.
Questions:
Is it best to go ahead and tear out the carpet? I am worried that when I re-install it there will be lumps from the felt that will inevitably come out in pieces.
Is it best to let it sit and dry?
Can the wool square weave be steam cleaned? It is beginning to smell.
What is the best sealent to use?

Paul---what a pain in the a#*! There has been a L-O-T posted here about ways to seal these cars up. The leakiest places seem to be the windshield and "underneath". Do a search and print out everything you can find on this subject.

I got my windshield sealed by installing a third latch---just a little off center plus a better grade of rubber seal using two layers, which Gordon recommended. I have worked hard to spray cans of undercoat stuff around the area where the fiberglass meets the steel pan. In addition I am making aluminum sheilds that stop water from being splashed up from the real wheels to the back of the body. There are pictures here on the site showing these shields. I am looking for patterns to use for this. (Anyone--please??) Rubber would also work as well.

There are a lot of other areas and it has been recommended to shine a light from under the car in the dark and see where it shines through.

Mostly what I have found that works is to check the weather reports and avoid drives in the rain!

Good luch with that car, Paul!---Jack

An old shop garage trick that works ... Fans just don't do this job but this does work. After mopping and blotting up as much as possible ..securely.. hang a bare 100 watt bulb a few inches over the wet carpet area in 36 hours it's completely dry. ~Alan

A little wet/dry shop vac from Home Depot or Sears is a good investment. They are really good at sucking the water up and through the padding and carpet. After that you gotta use heat to evaporate the rest. As for the odor, hit a pet store for the best stuff to remove/convert/mask it. I went through this with my TR6 . . .

Paul,

It

OK, so you have wet carpets. Bummer. And they sound like the wool ones: double bummer. Carpets can be had in polyester or other synthetic, and these bear water better (don

Good lord.----Jack

Jack... Amen! Kelly, Thank you for all the advice. First things first, I need to go home, remove the seats and strip the carpet. I have a feeling it is just too wet for the lightbulb trick to work. If I were to put my carpets out on the city streets of baltimore to dry... they would not be there when I return. I do not have access to my roof or I would lay them out up there. Probably hang them over the curtain rod in my bathroom. Try the hair dryer trick.
TC, I, ermmm, Megan tried the shop vac trick. We would take a swipe with the wand, watch the carpet turn light in that area, only to slowly turn dark again. When I took turns I had water actually flowing into my heater channels/frame. I think there is just too much for a shop vac alone.

I guess now is a good time to tell Paul about the 2 inches of water on the floor of Tom DeWalt's brand new coupe after driving home from Carlisle in a downpour last May.

Not to mention that just about everyone on here who doesn't have an IM or SAS has to put up with water in the cockpit coming in from who-knows-where. Where are those pictures of East Coast Bruce bailing out his Speedie??

Ya gotta love it.......

Next, I'm sure you'll be asking about whole car covers, so let me be the first to offer mine:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f254/speedster356/GordonsLow-BucksCarCover.jpg

HEY AT PASO ROBLES TWO YEARS AGO VINCE USED HIS BEARD TO SUCK UP HIS WATER

AFTER PASO WE HAD INCHES OF WATER IN THE CAR. I WENT TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD HANDCAR WASH AND USED THEIR VACCUMS TO SUCK EXCESS WATER. THEN I USED EVERY BATH TOWEL CARROL HAD BEFORE SHE THREW ME OUT OF THE HOUSE. THEY DID A GREAT JOB OF ABSORBING THE WATER. THEN I USED A BLOW DRYER TO FINISH OFF THE JOB.

...like this one? SHAM-WOW!

~WB

Paul, Kelly knows his floors. Here's his handiwork on Tom DeWalt's car.
Wool is a hollow fiber. That's why you've got water seeming to magically re-appear on you after you dry it out. The best suggestion I've ever heard is to use a rolling pin on it after you take the carpet out; it acts as a squeegie to press the water out of the fibers of the carpet.
It also helps to flatten it, like an iron, before you hang it to dry it out. If you want help with it, there are companies like ServPro, who specialize in fire and water damage, which are readily available for troubles like these. When it comes to putting it all back together, we're here for you.

BTW - Dave at Peek says you picked up a master cylinder -- how'd the install go? I called him this morning about shop time and availability. Hope you don't mind me being nosey. I want to see you back on the streets of Charm City as soon as possible!

I was wondering how the Sham Wow would work in this situation. If I had only bought one within 20 minutes after that commercial I could have had 8 of them!! Damnit!
After Megan threw down the vaccum handle and said she was over it, I told her the lawn needed a good mowing. Tactful is my middle name. Needles to say her towels were not an option. Hopefully I can still get a hold of her hairdryer.
Gordon, what is a cover like that going for? Can you get it in different colors?

Paul, after you have the carpet out, and before you put it back in, I have some sheet-metal craftwork for you. I spoke to TC on the phone earlier, and we have the same suggestion for your drainage problem.
I've made a couple NACA-style ducts for you which will allow for drain holes without the possibility of water getting back into your car from the front. They're aluminum, and you'd install them with the open end to the rear, capturing the drain holes inside a cowl.
They're at my house; they're yours when you get time. Meanwhile, I'd sure get that carpet out of there and dried out.
Here are a couple more pictures of the DeWalt expedition. The first is the inelegant splash-guard answer. It took about 40 minutes per to make these; I can do it again pretty painlessly with a few materials from an RV guy -- and I think we know one. Second is Bill Drayer chasing wires under Tom's dashboard. The third picture is Kelly again, this time finishing up the install of the driver's seat after he got done with the carpets:

Cory, speaking of "back on the streets", I did not have time to install the master cylinder. I had another problem more pressing develop after picking up that master cylinder. My clutch cable all but snapped. I must admit, My brother and I came up with a pretty ingenious solution to get the car home. check out the pictures below. A VW clutch cable, a wire clamp, and a stainless steel eye bolt. The best part.. if it failed while driving home, I could just pull over and tighten the cable back up. In order to pull the cable I had to roll the drivers side rear tire up onto a log to get enough clearance to crawl under the car. And yes, this all happened as I had water swirling around my feet at every stop/turn I took. One hell of a weekend.

That's a different looking set-up with the cable hook protruding from the floor. Is there no center hump in the car?
~WB

From reading this post, no one has actually answered your question!

So here

After Carlisle 06, I had lots of water. It rained driving there, and a bit on the way home. Thirty minutes from home, it was a deluge. At least two inches sloshing around, and it was cold, around 50-55, to boot! I have a Spyder with no top, by the way.

When I got home, I put the front of the car on ramps in the garage. Then I sucked out most of the water with my shop vac. Then I opened both doors and placed a box fan in one door, blowing air across the carpet. It was dry in less than a day. On Spyders, there isn't any backing or padding, the carpets are spray-glued right to the floor.

Afterwards, I siliconed all seams, especially where my aluminum floor meets fiberglass. I also drilled a bunch of 1/4" holes to let the water back out, four in front of the bulkhead, four behind the bulkhead in front of the seats, and four behind the seats.

Now if it rains, I might get a couple of moist areas in the carpet, but no more sloshing around like an interior puddle.

All of us had some amount of water in our cars this year. Mine all comes in around the windshield and side windows - mostly the former. One thing no one else has mentioned is the windshield wipers. If there is no seal on each post that the arm is attached to, you will get water in there. I also leaked a bit around the windshield posts (since fixed) and where the top bow seal rests against the windshield frame (also fixed - sort of). Luckily I don't get the leaky floor problem, so the amount in my floorboards was not too bad. Towels and Charleston's summer heat took care of it.

Funny you should mention wipers. Paul's car has straight blades on it, and there are insets formed into the fiberglass at the base of each stem, but nothing filling in where a gasket would be.
They're an odd choice. Is there anyone else here with straight wipers?

Paul,

Sorry to hear about your flood problem. As the photo in Wild Bill's post above shows, I also had a BIG problem with rain flooding the car. That year we were in a major thunderstorm on the way to Carlisle. and literally spent the whole weekend sponging water from car. I built my car from a CMC and am not familliar with how the Thuder Ranch is bulit but usually the source of big leaks in these cars is similar. The solution to my problem is posted elsewhere on this site but I'll run it past you again here.

The CMC was built on a VW platform and the chassis extended beyond the underside of the interior floor. When the rear tires picked up water it flew up against the backside of the interior floor, ran down and onto the pan. It then ran into the interior and pooled. In the front, it was also possible for the front wheels to throw water onto the front underside of the interior, run down onto the pan and into the interior if there isn;t a good seal there too. My guess is your TR has a tube chassis so this may be a bit different but similar - if you know what I mean.

The posts above already explain removing and drying/drycleaning your carpets to get the clean/right. I have used fans and a dehumidifier but found it necessary to remove all the carpets and the seats to get it done. If they are ruined by the water or by removing them then that may be an additional point of discussion with the builder.

Other then the small amounts of water that may get in via the windshield and/or side curtains, my guess is the water is coming from the rear wheels. The best way to address a fix is to remove all the carpet and the seats. Jack the rear of the car up and remove the rear wheels (don't forget to use jackstands). Have someone shine a bright light from the interior - especially at the base of the rear seat - get underneath by the rear of the interior and look for light. Buy a few tubes of paintable silicon caulk and wherever you see light start caulking. Make sure you build the caulk so it seals any and all openings and allows any future water to run off and not get caught or pool anywhere so that it can still runinto the car.

It boggles my mind that some builders/sellers don't address this problem during assembly but it appears to be a frequent oversight with a couple of them - they need to realize that not driving in the rain is more the tendency of the REAL Speedsters. Again, the construction of your TR is probably different from my CMC but take a look. If I can be of help, let me know.

Bruce---you just said what I have always wondered and never heard any answer to and that is why don't the manufacturers take care of sealing the fiberglass body to the pan when they make the car???
Seems that that would be a far better solution than patching it after delivery. I hear of folks checking on their car during the build but the single best day to be there is the day the body goes onto the pan!

Cory--could you post a picture of the NACA style duct you fabricated?

Random thought--it seems that the tunnel of a vw pan has many places for water to come in. Plenty of holes and in the cold I even get cold air coming from the heater control. (I lay a towel over it.)

For you Vintage owners, look in the battery compartment and you will see holes where the battery wires go out--water gets into the trunk from these holes.They are easy to seal from under the car.

Paul,

Sounds like you are doing all of this outside!! You have no garage for the car? If so, unless you get a whole-car cover and use it properly, your car will never be dry. Ever. Unless you move to Tucson. Or maybe San Diego. I believe the dry clime in SD is the reason why your car leaks: it was built by guys who live in a place where is just about never rains. I personally belive it would be possible to make these cars' basic chassis water tight, w/ leaks only at the side curtains, if one just paid a little more attention. I say that having never put one together, but I think just a little more care and some common sense and straight-forward engineering plus using the right materials, could be applied to good result. Or, just ask Henry how he does it.

The CMC manual says fiberglass the body to the pan in the back and along the sides. It seems like that would help a lot.

I would rip put the carpet, and get it dry before it is too far gone. The underside you can buy at any medium sized (if you need it) carpet store to replace. Do not glue the backing down so next time it's pull and dry....

REPEAT: do not use that composite junk thread carpet padding/soundproofing/matting, whatever TF sh-t. Rip, peel, scrape or otherwise detach this very bad idea from all parts of carpet and car, and as mentioned, throw it as far away as possible. Use something a lot less water absorptive, as described above. These cars are so noisy anyway, you will never notice the difference. Using Cocoa mats over the carpet so installed will provide all the sound-proofing you will need and look terrific besides (and period too!). IF you don't glue it down (there really is no need to do that), then the next time it gets wet (there is always a next time), getting the footwell carpet out will be a breeze, and will dry much quicker. I think one could cut and fit the rear carpet segments around the seat mounts, if you were really energetic, so R&R of all the floor carpet could be had w/out needing to remove the seats. I have not done that, and have not studied the means by which it could be accomplished. Are we clear on this?

When I redid my carpet the last time (half assed job as I only did the floors and door sills) I just used the indoor outdoor grey stuff at Lowes. I used some squishy rubber insulating material, used for AC duct work or something, as sound deadening. Anyway, the sound deadening never really helped but I also never had any problem drying the carpet either. I would just leave the top down and the car was dry in half a day. While I had the carpet out I did paint everything with POR 15, that stuff is awesome! I pulled my floor carpet up a few days ago and the floor is as solid as it was two years ago when I did the carpet. The carpet on the other hand has seen a better day, but it's not THAT bad. The only reason I'm redoing it this winter is so the interior is all grey instead of half grey half black carpet.
When I redo it again this winter ALL the carpet is coming out. I will patch any and all holes from previous seat mounting, reinforce any weak areas with some really ugly welding, re-cover with POR 15, add a couple drain holes "ala Cory", and do a much, much better job fitting the carpet. I'm not using any sound proofing. I'm not glueing anything that doesn't NEED to be glued and that's it. I have my car out in the rain almost as often as it rains. I may not drive it in the rain much but it's get's it share of being rained on. It must be the indoor outdoor because I never have had an issue with drying it. It dries pretty quick.

yep

Kelly,

I might be misunderstanding what you are saying about not removing the seats. My experience is the carpets in some of these cars is one piece on each side of the tunnel and it runs from the bottom of the firewall to the bottom of the rear seat. The seats are bolted on top and through the carpets so it would be difficult to remove the carpets without removing the seats.

BTW, forgot to mention in my write-up above - I've driven in rain several times since the described fix and haven't had rain on the floors since.

Michael,

I had the floor fiberglassed to the pan as described in the CMC manual. The problem is the water still builds on the pan behind the fiberglass for the reason I mentioned above and at some point it still finds its way to the interior and the carpets.

ECB

Bruce, I think what Kelly means is to remove everything, and bolt the seats directly to the floor. Then cut the carpets so they can be put in around the seat, that way if you just pull the carpets and shop vac the interior you are done.

Bruce,

Before I fiberglassed it in the rear I filled the space under the rear seat, behind the vertical face, with urethane foam. So, that forms a barrier before the fiberglass.

It will be a little messy if I ever have to get to the shift rod coupling.

And all it really takes is a stock, VW Sedan body-to-pan gasket (like a thick rubber ribbon with a bead down the length on each side) installed when the car is built. If VW Sedans didn't leak using that, then these cars shouldn't, either.

First you lay a generous, thick bead of silicon caulk on the pan to body intersection lip, then lay the gasket material on it, cutting and fitting as necessary, and let it sit overnight. Then lay another generous bead along the top of the gasket and then set the body on top. If you are quick getting the body on and the stuff hasn't set up, you can manoeuver the body around a little to sit right.

I didn't use the gasket when I did my car, but it would have been easier and I would have used a lot less silicon caulk (I must have used six full tubes or more). I picked up a gasket at Carlisle for the new kit.

Also, to ECB's post, you need to get in there with a light to find any of those pesky holes for brake lines, wires, cables and so forth to make sure they have the rubber boots and grommets that VW intended for them, or plug the leak with silicon caulk. Clutch, accelerator and heater cables are good places to start, then the wire bundle and brake lines. Don't forget the boot on the forward end of the transmission nosecone, too. A small hole in the right place can let in a WHOLE LOT of water when driving in a downpour.

The CMC subframe does not make good contact with the gasket in the rear, under the back seat.

You know it would seem to me that builders from companies like Special Edition and Vintage should have some basic knowledge about where their cars leak when driven in the rain. I'm sure ,for example, Breman Indiana gets plenty of weather there.These guys make lots of cars. They should know where the moisture weaknesses are and should be able to advise one how to protect from water getting in (other then not driving in the rain).Perhaps I'm just being naive here.

Can't speak for VS cars, but most of the leaks on a Beck are in the same spots as on the originals - around the side windows and windshield. What's needed to fix them as much as you can do with side curtains is some goop around the windshield post bolts, some seals on the wiper shafts, and some extra rubber on the top-to-windshield header. there's not much you can do about the side windows except make your own, and even they will leak some.

ECB: Pip has said it right. I am thinking one could apply the seats to the metal floor and have the carpet pieces cut in such a way as they can come in/out subsequently w/ out pulling the seats.

And Gordon: the stuff is silicone (a sticky room temperature vulcanizing rubber (RTV) polymer) not silicon, a metal. Just to be clear. Also, FWIW, I think I recall JPS saying he uses the VW pan-to-body rubber gasket, w/ lots of goop (aka silicone) applied. And also a not-small amount of polyurethane expanding foam is applied here and there too. I have added a bit of spray undercoating to all seams from the outside, and likely will be adding more.

Danny and Kelly,

Thanks for clarifying, makes sense to do what you suggest in the event the carpets get wet again.

Gordon,

I didn't use the rubber pan seal either and used lots of silicone. If seems either the CMC build manual or the tech guy at the factory suggested not using the seal but a quick check of the manual didn't find a reference. I think you're making the right move installing one on Chris' build.