What is the best way to get 200hp?

I am rebuilding a speedster I bought a few years back. I do not know what engine is actually in the car because the seller didn't really know anything about the car. I do know it is slow, so I would like to rebuild the engine and suspension for more power (probably autocross for fun). I am thinking I would like to get 200hp with some good torque as well (flat curve). What is the best cost effective way to do this? Turbo, engine, etc.... Oh yea and I don't want to have to rebuilt the engine ever 2 years.

Peter, Visit shoptalkforums=plenty of info. For my money--Turbo!!!!!!!!
Calm smooth around town, good gas mileage, etc...Put your foot into it
and it's there waiting to please.
$ for $ you cannot get that HP for the same money. Good luck!

Peter, Visit shoptalkforums=plenty of info. For my money--Turbo!!!!!!!!
Calm smooth around town, good gas mileage, etc...Put your foot into it
and it's there waiting to please.
$ for $ you cannot get that HP for the same money and
Since the turbo "kicks" in gradually that super dupper suspension strength is not "as" important.
Good luck with your project!

There's no replacement for displacement.

I'm with bruce. Turbo is the way to go

Agree on $ value for forced induction. Superchargers are also available if you yearn to be different. For those who would investigate a water pumper, there is a host of 2.xx liter fours out there with turbos and superchargers. My wifes turbo PT Cruiser has tempted me several times - 230 Hp, 245 torque,factory stock 2.4 liter engine. BADDA BING!! And I've all ready got a 2.4 liter Type IV.

Subaru, and you can drive it like you stole it

All vw drivetrain=cheap, no special adapters. $ for $===can't beat it.

Is there a particular VW engine I should build it off of if I were to turbo? Obviously I will have to beef it up a bit. What kind of boost are people running on these engines? Will they last?

last months Hot VW's had a "bake off" by several engine builders for max HP with certain limitations to keep costs a bit lower. Several made over 200 hp in street configuration with fan and alternator, no radical heads, street gas, and the like. Most, if not all, were 2332 cc's....CB Performance won with something like 247hp...they have that config engine for sale now as I understand it....Chico's, Berg, and others were all posting at or near 200 hp...

While I like turbos, why do that if all you want is 200 hp? Now if you wanted 300 hp a turbo then becomes the most realistic option.....

Cool thing about Berg is that his engine made 172 hp with a compression ratio of 7.0:1. That's what I call having your cake and eating it too; that motor will give plenty of power while staying cool and living long....ol' Gene Berg's credo.

Check out Ben's car above or there is another cb hideaway turbo'd
car here(nice car,just don't remeber the owner). 300 dyno'd hp.
Thats the point- no huge stroker costs, big valve heads etc....
A little elbow on an exhaust header, t-3 turbo and spool.
Investigate shoptalkforums, turbo, fuel injection, engine building
it's all discussed.

stock single port, turbo, 15lbs boost
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e81a8b57-70c7-4444-8a80-985c00d98995.htm

Bruce, I think it's Michael Ballards car yo might be referring to. A nice specimen of a turbo engine (nice car too)

Buy a small Acura

Could you put an engine from a Honda S2000 in a speedster?

Putting a turbo on a stock 1500 cc single port and attempting 200 hp may not be the dumbest thing I have ever seen done, but it clearly makes the top 50 of all time.....a stock 1500 cc might make 50 hp. Everything in the engine is designed to support that level of hp plus an unknown but substantial over engineering margin. Without reworking rods, rod bolts, engine cyl studs, main bearings, rod bearings, flywheel, flywheel mounting, balancing, pistons, and a few other monor things like cooling, oiling, filtering, and the like...just slapping on a turbo is likely to cause major problems. The flywheel to crank mounting is very weak...hence many people require 8 pin or flanged cranks....and extra heavy torque on the bolt....also, shuffle pins on the case, lightened and forged fly wheel (ever see a 20 pound stock flywheel come apart? Not a pretty sight, can kill you). Rods and pistons are very heavyly loaded in a turbo engine....the seal of heads to cylinders may require special gasketing, need to make certain compression is not over x.0:1....need to know compustion chamber cc's, deck height, and a few other things. Cam's for turbos are not stock VW cams, nor are they necessarly hi performance cams one would use in non aspirated engines...

Conversely, if one is to build an engine carefully around a plan to use a turbo, it can be done for not too much money, but it need be engineered for the tubo, not just slapped on top of the old clunker....

just my less than humble opinion

Jim, Please reread above. No one recommended slapping a turbo on top of anything nor did
anyone say this was magic and would give you 200 hp. What the single port example shows
is what can be done with a little education/information. The dumbest thing in the world,
sure and funny too. Doesn't anyone else find it strange that when someone mentions
high performance type 1, gene bergs name follows and the same with t-4=Jake Raby. There is a big world out there with many talented people and lots of information. You just listed
quite a bit of info, to "most" it looks very thorough. Taken at face value it's misleading.
Many ways to skin that cat.

Gee Bruce, I thought was was a question of how to get 200hp easily. And I could swear tubos are mentioned several times in the string, and I would swear you published the link to the stock 1500 with turbo at 15 psi boost? I must have imagined it all. By the way, how many engines have you built? I must not have read your credentials properly, I didn't realize you were the resident expert on all things, maybe they were in the string above I didn't read?

Yelp Im told you have to have hight temp pistons and rings. and a higher chamber heads or dished pistons to lowwer the compression from 8.5.1 to 7.5.1 for a turbo. Tweaking the waste gate is the tricky part to much pressure and something may break. or bend a wristpin. Tubos can be wicked.

Turbo's-"Wicked"?? Yep, Wicked good"!!!

The question of 200 hp didn't ask "easiest" it asked the most cost effective.

Same thing but different---

"Everything in the engine is designed to support that level of hp plus an unknown but substantial over engineering margin"===This is done for every quality engine build.

"Without reworking rods, rod bolts, engine cyl studs, main bearings, rod bearings, flywheel, flywheel mounting, balancing, pistons"=Again, accomplished on any quality engine build with higher HP in mind.
"cooling, oiling, filtering, and the like"=yes, we all want cooler, cleaner oil"
"just slapping on a turbo is likely to cause major problems"-in extreme use/cases.== Did you see the hot VW issue when they "slapped on" a draw thru turbo (not my choice) on the editors "STOCK" t-1 and dyno'd 110 HP without any internal mods? (Not the best plan but indicative of what can be done)
The flywheel to crank mounting is very weak...hence many people require 8 pin or flanged cranks....and extra heavy torque on the bolt....also, shuffle pins on the case, lightened and forged fly wheel (ever see a 20 pound stock flywheel come apart? ====Are you saying that 200 turbo hp blows apart a flywheel easier than a 200 N.A. H.P.?
Rods and pistons are very heavyly loaded in a turbo engine....the seal of heads to cylinders may require special gasketing=="special gasketing?",
need to make certain compression is not over x.0:1....need to know compustion chamber cc's, deck height, and a few other things----

All I'm saying Jim is that by stating the above the way you did implied that I suggested that you shouldn't upgrade the basic engine and perform a quality build because it's a turbo engine. The same precautions/quality should be included in any quality engine build wether it be normally aspirated, turbo or other. What I advocated and still do is that using a turbo motor will perform better all around and the "base motor" can be built to a lower state of tune (compression ratio's, stroke etc...) and get more HP.
If it's not too private ask the owners of the engines who have posted high HP figures what
cost high H.P.---It ain't cheap.
Remember George Brown's (R.I.P.) high H.P. T-1 motor? Tweaked to such a state that the words "unstreetable" were used. A turbo would have given him the same or more for less and been much more user friendly.

"Conversely, if one is to build an engine carefully around a plan to use a turbo, it can be done for not too much money, but it need be engineered for the tubo, not just slapped on top of the old clunker"----I never said slapping a turbo on top of a stocker was a good idea-- But a lot of fun for some that's for sure. Ever see an engine "blow-up" contest at a VW event? Makes no sense to me but very entertaining/fun for some.

I'm sure we're saying the same thing Jim. Any high HP motor needs to be addressed as a total package, put together with care, knowledge and thought. I'm not an expert in anything, jack of all trades-master of none. I can build, weld, wire, paint, drive most anything. Some of it I do well others I give it my best shot. Lifelong mechanic-- aircraft mech(career), auto mech. for fun(less fun as time goes by). Spent 5 years in a VW engine rebuilding shop(sorry, I didn't count "the engines I built") where we balanced, weighed, cleaned and measured every engine that went out the door. So impressed with our thoroughness that it came with a 12 month unlimited mileage warranty.

We should delegate a sacrificial lamb and send him/her into the jaws of Massive Type4 to find out what the engine for the Spyder project would cost. I had the distinct impression that the newer high output engines he is building today are actually less expensive than the one I had built some years ago.

One thing for sure is that those engines fit or support their purpose. Well planned and engineered. Some ideas sound like the best approach but as GB found out, some components just don't work well together.

So, I am leaning towards turbo. Mainly just cause I like to sound and if it is done right I can dial it down when I'm not running like a mad man. The CB perf kit looks really good. Does anyone have experience with other kits? One of my friends pointed me to Turbo City's rapid response kit.

http://www.turbocity.com/product_info.php?cPath=62&products_id=526

But, I don't know if this will fit. I am sure it could be modded to fit and could be worth it for 1500 less then CB's kit. What are your thoughts?

CB is known for offering good quality parts and service. Also, remember that they deal almost exclusively with air cooled VW's so you know that anything you get from them is guaranteed to work with your engine. By getting parts or kits from someone not specialized in these engines you're basically becoming their guinea pig.

Even if it fits you don't want it. The beauty of the other kit is that the hot air stays below the tin and out of the engine compartment. I think you should buy and read the book turbomania
if you are truly interested. You don't have to "dial" anything down. The turbo spins happily
till you put your foot in it. 75% of the time its naturally aspirated and behaves like any other motor until your rpm's send the exhaust flow/turbo pressure up and your intake becomes pressurized. Driving around town, light throttle, cruising on the higway=no boost.

Obviously, I got lucky with the mechanic who put my engine (and most of my car) together. He's built NOS cars, turbo cars and plenty of T-1 and T-4 engine and transmission combos over the years.
Peter, it may be possible that there's a good knowledge base right there in Michigan for you to draw on.
An elderly friend of yours truly just moved to Adrian. He's probably in the phone book by now; James Sartwell, II. He's an experienced racer and a Porsche, VW, Audi and Infiniti factory mechanic-trainer, and the only guy I know personally who's ever had his own, privately funded race car (albeit a Camaro) made into a 1:18 die-cast commemorative.
He and Angela got lost in a two-hour discussion on the merits and demerits of the four-cam engine last year, and I think he'll almost certainly help you in your quest. He taught his sons the majority of what they know -- and one of them made my car a reality from practically nothing.
(If you look him up, go easy. He just turned 79 last week. His timetable will be his own.)

Peter:

For what it

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=309288

Don't forget to upgrade your brakes, too.

I've always wondered how you isolate the engine compartment at the rear with all that tubing. In most mags I've read I've seen that they just do away with the rear tin; not a good idea if you want to keep the engine running cool; unless you remove the decklid altogether and that doesn't look good even though you might have a real "jewel" in the engine compartment. Somehow the cars look incomplete without the decklid not to mention that you're exposing the engine to the elements.

Cory I have a request, Can you ask you mecanic freind if he or his dad has all the 4 cammer specs like bore, stroke, combustion ,chamber volume and the cam specs. Ray , a friend, and I need that info for comparisions. on another BIG project. We also need all the gearing specs for the transmissions

His father used to TEACH that engine. He moved to Michigan. I'll get his contact info for you -- he still has the shop manual.
Angela saw it on a visit once; they talked for two hours about the merits of that engine and the scheduling block of two-weeks' shop time for maintenance.
Easy. I'll get that for you by Monday afternoon.
Any particular numbers your friend needs? Maybe a Xerox/fax of a page?

Thank you Cory. Ray and I have had quite a few dicussions on the T-i verses the T-4 and some of the spec.s for his big engine build.

He wants to see what the twim cammer was like to see what it might tell him before he crunchs the numbers again for his build .

So even the factory valve sizes and rocker ratios are very inportant.

We both agree on one aspect twin cams and a sturgess drive belt to give his build true hemmi type heads.

He was having problems with his CNC trumph robotic multi milling machine this week. and the problem sounds exspecive but he thinks he can correct it, and make the broken parts in house.

I have been after him to think about making nickies in house . but he said he has to much going on right now and he pesently does not have time for another project. He's in the middle of a big contract job . so it could be a while.

If you wanted to spend the money, Go with Subaru!! Buy a WRX STI turbo charged car. Wrecked if you can find one. Pull engine, transmission, All wiring. Go through your wiring and get rid of the stuff that you don't need. Slap that baby in and you will roughly have about 300 hp. That is the way to go for the money.

Yes, but avoid the 2005 and newer Sti. What you will wind up with is an engine that will not run due to the security features built into it. I think the regular WRX is a better proposition. Ask anyone who drove Rob Young's WRX-powered SAS Cabriolet at Carlisle. This is one serious piece of machinery.

Twin cam?

http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=93249&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=subaru+cylinders&start=0

I pondered this for a while. If a four cam engine does not require valve adjustments, which to me seems like less maintenance overall... why did porsche stop using the 4C engine design?

Once again, go Subaru. It the most bang for your buck, no overheating, and proven long term reliability. Sure it is not AC traditional, but neither is 200+ HP.

Bolt it up to a 915 gearbox and be done with it.

Cost? I paid 2000 USD for a 240 HP EJ20T engine with 50K km, exhaust, KEP adaptor to the 915 box, flywheel, new 911 clutch, and new starter. This was a very good deal but the engines alone are not all that expensive given the cost of a 200 Hp VW engine.

As an aside I am about to do a run of Suby/915/Type 1 adaptor plates and 915 flywheels for my next car and my Buddy. Machine work here in Thailand is cheap, and if there is intrest I can easily do a couple more to bring down the cost.
Freight will be the issue.

I have owned several subarus... I like and trust them a lot, but I also trust that i will have to change the timing belt, and water pump at 80k. Subaru says they are rated to 120k, but I have always, always, always had to do it before 85k. I don't know how easy it is to get to a timing belt on the suby tuby, but it can't be easy.