A friend of mine has an original 356 and told me the replica engines do not compare with the orginal ones. His engine is 60hp. I am waiting for an IM, with the super 90. What are the differences between the two?
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A friend of mine has an original 356 and told me the replica engines do not compare with the orginal ones. His engine is 60hp. I am waiting for an IM, with the super 90. What are the differences between the two?
I've never driven an original 356 but I would expect that a replica would accelerate better, handle better and stop way better than an original 356. Of course the 356 appreciates in value while the replica depreciates....but you don't need to panic every time you park a replica and leave it for an hour or two.
Ron, I was really wondering about the engines. I remember Henry telling me they are similar to the 1969 engine or something about that. I also remember reading that the difference between the 1959 vw and porsche engines had to do with piston size or displacement. As you can see, I am still learning.
Also, Ron I checked out your car photos. That is BMW Red?
Also, Ron I checked out your car photos. That is BMW Red?
No. Ron's car is purple. Only he thinks it is red.
Bob
Bob
When I was looking to buy a 356 my two options were
A. buy an original hardtop
B. buy a convertable replica
These two options were based on price. I went and drove a perfect 356 A coupe that was in excellent condition, I also drove a super 90. After driving them I realized that these cars were more of a death trap than the replica as the motors are simply not powerful enough to get you going if you were to merg onto a highway. Originals are unbelievably slow, so are replicas if they use a standard VW engine. The trick would be to get a real 356 and pull the motor, throw in a large VW motor. Running up to a Porsche meet a while back I came across a 356 B that wanted to rally. It didn't take long before he was in my rear view mirror. If you want to hop up a 356 engine it will cost you, a VW engine is much less expensive, sounds the same and is basically the same engine.
J-P
A. buy an original hardtop
B. buy a convertable replica
These two options were based on price. I went and drove a perfect 356 A coupe that was in excellent condition, I also drove a super 90. After driving them I realized that these cars were more of a death trap than the replica as the motors are simply not powerful enough to get you going if you were to merg onto a highway. Originals are unbelievably slow, so are replicas if they use a standard VW engine. The trick would be to get a real 356 and pull the motor, throw in a large VW motor. Running up to a Porsche meet a while back I came across a 356 B that wanted to rally. It didn't take long before he was in my rear view mirror. If you want to hop up a 356 engine it will cost you, a VW engine is much less expensive, sounds the same and is basically the same engine.
J-P
When I bought my 84 IM, three years ago, it had a stock 1600 in it (single carb and all). Man, was it slow! When I wanted to pass another car on the highway I had to plan the pass and start accelerating 15 seconds ahead, just to get up enough speed. My wife said, "Just slow down and don't pass". I put a 2110 motor in instead.
Ron
Ron
I also build 356 engines, and quite a few of them (especially since the maestro died)
The 356 engine is a HP machine, to be as small as it is. It has alot of unique features that make it super expensive to build. I have not built one yet for less than 8,000.00
The 356 engine in stock form is 80-90 HP, to make one 150BHP it cost 12K+ EASILY. Parts are outrageous!
The fact is that a replica is much better suited witha TI or TIV engine. They are easier for most guys to tune than a 356, and half the cost for equal power.
The 356 engine is a HP machine, to be as small as it is. It has alot of unique features that make it super expensive to build. I have not built one yet for less than 8,000.00
The 356 engine in stock form is 80-90 HP, to make one 150BHP it cost 12K+ EASILY. Parts are outrageous!
The fact is that a replica is much better suited witha TI or TIV engine. They are easier for most guys to tune than a 356, and half the cost for equal power.
Paul, It's nice to see that there are finally some people on this forum with some insight and intelligence. Yes you are correct of course, the color is BMW Red.
The 356 1600 engines came in 60, 75, 90, and 100 BHP (DIN ratings). The case is different (3 part), heads are different, later crankshafts are counterbalanced, and the 90 and 100 BHP engines had stronger rods. Some engines had cast iron cylinders, others had birals, and some had a chrome bore alloy cylinder (similar to nicasils). They used bypass oil filters which aren't very effective.They can be modified for more power but are basically a bit weak when compared to a type 1 engine built with premium aftermarket components.
356 engine parts are expensive and getting harder to find, and 356 restorers are paying premiums for some parts.
356 engine parts are expensive and getting harder to find, and 356 restorers are paying premiums for some parts.
The 356 1600 engines came in 60, 75, 90, and 100 BHP (DIN ratings). The case is different (3 part), heads are different, later crankshafts are counterbalanced, and the 90 and 100 BHP engines had stronger rods. Some engines had cast iron cylinders, others had birals, and some had a chrome bore alloy cylinder (similar to nicasils). They used bypass oil filters which aren't very effective.They can be modified for more power but are basically a bit weak when compared to a type 1 engine built with premium aftermarket components.
356 engine parts are expensive and getting harder to find, and 356 restorers are paying premiums for some parts.
356 engine parts are expensive and getting harder to find, and 356 restorers are paying premiums for some parts.
Paul:
Way back when, I had a '64 356 C cabriolet with a "Super" engine. Believe me, it wasn't. It went OK, if you weren't asking too much of it, but that was about it. This wasn't a "Super 90" (which was a rompin, stompin 90 hp), but just a "super", which meant it had about 75 HP or so. It was noisy, it wasn't especially smooth, and it certainly wasn't fast (if you measure by acceleration). My brother would kill me in acceleration (and cornering) with his Mini Cooper 1,275cc.
Now, I'm driving a speedster replica with a 2,110 cc VW, pair of 40mm Dellorto's and all that neat "goodie" stuff. It is WAY better than the "Super" I had years ago. You always remember the times years ago when you tried to pass someone and hoped that you would make it before the road ran out. I've NEVER had that experience with my 2,110 - in fact, it has about the same performance as my 5,400 cc Ford Pickup (which is no slouch!). It runs smoother than my original Porsche, has way more low and mid-range torque, and is just plain quieter for valve-train racket (of sourse, my Berg dual quiet pack exhaust have a cool "snarly" sound, too!).
PLUS! I have to agree with Jake - whenever you add that "P" (Porsche) to the price list, every thing seems to go up by a factor of 10!!
Stick with the after-market VW based engines. And tell your Porsche friends to try and keep up!
Gordon
Way back when, I had a '64 356 C cabriolet with a "Super" engine. Believe me, it wasn't. It went OK, if you weren't asking too much of it, but that was about it. This wasn't a "Super 90" (which was a rompin, stompin 90 hp), but just a "super", which meant it had about 75 HP or so. It was noisy, it wasn't especially smooth, and it certainly wasn't fast (if you measure by acceleration). My brother would kill me in acceleration (and cornering) with his Mini Cooper 1,275cc.
Now, I'm driving a speedster replica with a 2,110 cc VW, pair of 40mm Dellorto's and all that neat "goodie" stuff. It is WAY better than the "Super" I had years ago. You always remember the times years ago when you tried to pass someone and hoped that you would make it before the road ran out. I've NEVER had that experience with my 2,110 - in fact, it has about the same performance as my 5,400 cc Ford Pickup (which is no slouch!). It runs smoother than my original Porsche, has way more low and mid-range torque, and is just plain quieter for valve-train racket (of sourse, my Berg dual quiet pack exhaust have a cool "snarly" sound, too!).
PLUS! I have to agree with Jake - whenever you add that "P" (Porsche) to the price list, every thing seems to go up by a factor of 10!!
Stick with the after-market VW based engines. And tell your Porsche friends to try and keep up!
Gordon
Having rebuilt my 912 engine (which is basically the same as a 356) I can attest to some of the earlier comments made.
The cost of parts is expensive...in some cases more than a 911 (I'm going to be rebuilding the 911 in my IM this winter...let you know on that). At first I thought that I'd try VW parts...the two engines look the same. No such luck! With very few exceptions averything is different.
The Porsche has sodium filled valves, stronger con rods, counter weighted crank, and the list goes on. I think (and I'm no expert) that the reason a stock 356 puts out more power than a stock VW is that Porsche made the engine breath better. Everything in the head is opened up more...larger intakes and exhaust and the stock 356 valve train itself is more like the aftermarket high ratio units that you can buy for a VW. Combine that with the 40mm carbs and that's probably how the 356 makes more power than the VW. Of course you can coax that out of a VW for much less than the cost of 356.
Brian
The cost of parts is expensive...in some cases more than a 911 (I'm going to be rebuilding the 911 in my IM this winter...let you know on that). At first I thought that I'd try VW parts...the two engines look the same. No such luck! With very few exceptions averything is different.
The Porsche has sodium filled valves, stronger con rods, counter weighted crank, and the list goes on. I think (and I'm no expert) that the reason a stock 356 puts out more power than a stock VW is that Porsche made the engine breath better. Everything in the head is opened up more...larger intakes and exhaust and the stock 356 valve train itself is more like the aftermarket high ratio units that you can buy for a VW. Combine that with the 40mm carbs and that's probably how the 356 makes more power than the VW. Of course you can coax that out of a VW for much less than the cost of 356.
Brian
Brian, what is the size of the 911 motor in your car? 2.7?
Ron
Ron
I have driven at least one original 356 and found it to be quite fast. I have attached a picture of it. It was not neck-snapping quick like a high performance Vette, but would run circles around my little 1776. It was smooth, a little noisy, due to the after market exhaust, and revved freely to 6,000 rpm. It was rebuilt by Vic Skirmantz (sp?) in the Detroit area who seems to have name recognition in the (real) Porsche community. The car had over 150K miles on it and had been owned by my friend since 1969; He had put most of the cars miles on it so he knew the history. He had an aftermarket oil filter, I don't remember the name, but is supposed to be more effective than those rum pot looking things usually found in the cars. Good running, quick and long-lived. Sounds like a good deal to me.
John H.
John H.
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Ron, 2.4T...maybe. The engine was replaced with a "rebuilt" unit sometime in 1998/99. I contacted the shop that did the work and they felt the engine might have been upgraded to 2.7 but could not remember. Serial numbers, etc indicate 2.4T plus when I rejetted the carbs down according to specs for a 2.4T then engine ran much smoother and not as rich....makes me think 2.4 is correct but don't know.
Been gathering a few parts to make a 2.7...got new Venolia forged pistons, 911 E cams...looking for barrels, etc. I think this engine needs at least a top end rebuild because it smokes upon startup after sitting...usually indicates worn valve guides if I'm not mistaken. Does not smoke very bad and after it warms up a bit the smoke is gone but I understand if the tolerances are not correct you can drop a valve and toast the engine so I need to attend to it. Specially when I plan on driving it the 5,500 kms from Yellowknife to Ontario in a year or two.
Brian
Been gathering a few parts to make a 2.7...got new Venolia forged pistons, 911 E cams...looking for barrels, etc. I think this engine needs at least a top end rebuild because it smokes upon startup after sitting...usually indicates worn valve guides if I'm not mistaken. Does not smoke very bad and after it warms up a bit the smoke is gone but I understand if the tolerances are not correct you can drop a valve and toast the engine so I need to attend to it. Specially when I plan on driving it the 5,500 kms from Yellowknife to Ontario in a year or two.
Brian