What is this Oil Passage Hole?

Your engine case is a universal replacement case and that opening is for the type 3 dipstick (flange?). For type 1 use there is a plate that goes over the hole, and it's a good place to mount an oil temp sensor- drill and tap through the center of the plate. Al

It's not an oil passage hole - it's an oil filler hole from either a 411/412 engine or a pre-'80 bus engine.  Both are practically bullet-proof.  I would love to have one.

The originally carbureted engines have a fuel-pump mount on the lower right front case with a passage for the fuel pump push rod.  Fuel injected engines do not have the fuel pump mount and it can not be retrofitted.   But the fuel pump mount can be blocked off if you use an electric fuel pump.

Here's a picture of the oil filler neck, which is perfect for a DTM fan shroud:

Sorry, I don't have a good photo of the fuel pump.  Maybe google some Type 4 photos or shoot an email or FB to Cory Drake?

Thanks Al and Gordon.  I had no idea what it was, but knew you guys would know.

Al:  I've never seen a type 3 case.  Is that where they put the dipstick?  Was it attached to the filler cap or something?  I know it was in a different place than on a Type 1/2 but never knew where.....

Hey Al,  I am thinking about getting the DTM Type 1 shroud.  Do you know if they fit in the Beck speedster?

No idea, Bobby, but I don't see why they won't. 2? 3? 4? or so guys here have them in different make cars and I don't recall any having problems with fit.

Gordon- a type 1 and type 3 case are the same, except for where the dipstick goes (I know i've seen it but I can't picture a type 3 dipstick assembly at the moment). I think the type 3 uses a rear mount as well, and the bosses are on a universal case too.

Gordon,

Your picture is cool, but that's a Type 4 and that cooling system is not a DTM (it's a 911 conversion)

Bobby,

Carey got Type 1 engines from Jake Raby for a while, and I'm nearly certain they came with DTMs.  

Bobby...Yup, as others have already told you, it's the attachment point for the dipstick in a type 3 VW. You have a universal case so it comes with this and a block-off plate if you're using this engine in a type 1.  ALSO...your in luck because if your building for a type one install, this is the best place to pick up oil temperature. I say this based on some testing I did at 6 different locations on a type 1 application in a VS Speedster.

PLUS it's easy to get to  and still out of the way  and you can drill and tap for the sensor without getting any shavings in your oil system....here's a photo of mine!......Bruce

aircooled posted:

Bobby...Yup, as others have already told you, it's the attachment point for the dipstick in a type 3 VW. You have a universal case so it comes with this and a block-off plate if you're using this engine in a type 1.  ALSO...your in luck because if your building for a type one install, this is the best place to pick up oil temperature. I say this based on some testing I did at 6 different locations on a type 1 application in a VS Speedster.

PLUS it's easy to get to  and still out of the way  and you can drill and tap for the sensor without getting any shavings in your oil system....here's a photo of mine!......Bruce

Man oh man, Bruce is the man when it comes to man-o-meters.

Thank you guys.  I found a block off plate and temp senor package at ACN for $60.   Total with UPS ground shipping would be $80.  So I need to buy some more stuff to offset that shipping charge.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/V...p;show=50&page=5

Ok, back to that DTM shroud.  I am debating on transferring what is currently on the engine in the car over to the new motor or buying the DTM.  I am thinking with the DTM's better cylinder cooling and larger doghouse oil cooler, I could for go the external oil cooler and stick with external filter system only.  I remember reading a Gene Berg article about external oil coolers not really lowering the cylinder temperature both treating the symptoms not the problem.  I am dialed in to 9.5 to 1 compression ratio so I want to make sure I have temperatures under control.

Any thoughts?

Bobby D posted:

.., back to that DTM shroud.  I am debating on transferring what is currently on the engine in the car over to the new motor or buying the DTM.  I am thinking with the DTM's better cylinder cooling and larger doghouse oil cooler, I could for go the external oil cooler and stick with external filter system only.  I remember reading a Gene Berg article about external oil coolers not really lowering the cylinder temperature both treating the symptoms not the problem.  I am dialed in to 9.5 to 1 compression ratio so I want to make sure I have temperatures under control. 

Guys would slap an extra cooler on a hot running engine, oil temp would come down, they'd declare it a success and drive off, not understanding why the engine died a few thousand miles later (usually stranding them in in the middle of nowhere). Oil temps were down, but the heads (and therefore the rest of the engine) were happily cooking themselves into oblivion. They didn't address the problem- mismatch of the engine combo itself (usually too much compression for what they built), poor install (left out engine sheetmetal) and/or tuning, not enough air intake into the engine compartment, or some combination of the above, and only treated the symptom.

I'm not a huge fan of the DTM, only because there is no provision for the flaps/thermostat assembly. Living in a rather temperate climate, I can see an engine taking a long time to reach proper operating temps for a good part of the year. I think if you seriously address the issues I mentioned above, a doghouse shroud with operating flaps and thermostat would be adequate (you still may need an extra cooler plumbed into the filter lines). Do you have a head temp gauge, and do you recall what cam is in the engine? I ask because 9.5:1 is high for anything not designed to rev to 6500 or more, and the cht will definitively tell you how the engine is running.

Hope this helps. Al

Al

Below is my 2276 setup

Engel w120 CAM  and lifters and Scat 1.25 Ratio Rockers

 Panchitto heads with 61cc combustion chamber VW 650 dual springs, titanium retainers, supergrip snakeskin values

Cooper cylinder head gasket with deck height set to 0 (gasket provides .040 additional deck height.

Mahle forge pistons and barrel set

CB performance super race H rods.

ACN heavy duty aluminum push rods.

I have ordered the A1 Sidewider exhaust.

So I am I going to have an issue with overheating?  I live in Columbus, Ohio.  We see temperature in the mid to high 90's in the summer.

Nice combo!

9:1 is almost perfect for a W120. 9.5:1 might be a bit much on a hot day.

You can buy a lot of "Peace of mind"  by installing a CHT gauge on #3 cyl at least. I use a Dakota Instruments CHT gauge on #3. It's a thermocouple wire with a copper terminal that goes between the spark plug and the cyl. head. It works very well and is accurate.......Bruce

What cylinder head temperature system are you guys using?  Are you guys running a separate gauge or tying into the warning light?

Bobby...I use Dakota Digital's  Odyssey II CHT and Oil temp. gauges. They're located in So. Dakota. Temporarily I hooked up a thermocouple to all four spark plugs,  wired the other end to a rotary switch and then to the gauge. This allowed me to get readings from all cyls. at any one time while driving.....Bruce

 

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

Gordon,

Your picture is cool, but that's a Type 4 and that cooling system is not a DTM (it's a 911 conversion)  

Stan,

I know very little about Porsche engines or the VW engine conversion kits pictured below and how well they are made; however, for those that might be interested there are some really cool looking conversion kits offered by Bernie Bergmann that come close to making a VW  engine resemble the 911 in the picture that Gordon posted:

http://www.bergmannvw.net/Webs.../engines_page-9.html

Cliff,

The engine Gordon put up was a Type 4 with a 911 shroud conversion (not sure which one, but looks a lot like an Ahnendorp). A stock cooling system looks like this:

You're right-- the Bergmann kits are super cool looking, but are unfortunately not very well regarded by some pretty smart people. Apparently, 1 and 3 gets lots of air and 2 and 4 much less-so. Since the thermal expansion rates are  different on the same heads, it creates more of an issue than if it were a matter of one side being warmer than the other.

Someday, I'm going to invest the time into making one that works, but for now-- the smart money is on a stock VW set-up or a DTM.

The W120 has 253 degrees @ .050" and when you add the duration created by using 1.25 rockers (4-5'), while 9.5:1 isn't out of this world, it isn't what I'd consider conservative for the combination of parts either so I do think you're going to have to pay attention to all the details. That said, if done right I don't see a problem.

Make sure the engine has ALL IT'S SHEETMETAL (sled and industrial tins, lower little back pieces that attach to the cylinder covers, holes filled in the rear breastplate if there's no heater tubes passing through, the hole in the crank pullley tin for the full flow fitting isn't huge and letting an appreciable amount of air in, little squares in the undersides of the heads) installed/fitting well  and the sides /rear are sealed off from spent cooling air and radiated exhaust heat. Don't forget the spark plug seals and make sure the rear engine seal actually seals.

Air intake into the engine compartment is important. If the carbs and fan don't get air (and there's not enough coming in the engine lid grille) the engine will run hot and will not last long; a few thousand miles at best. Does your car have a hole in the firewall in front of the fan shroud hole? You can also leave the front breastplate (the one over the bellhousing) off for air intake, but a 6 or 7" hole in the firewall is easier to mount 1/2" screen over, so the fan blades don't get blocked by a plastic bag or other road debris.

Someone on the Samba (runs an intercooled turboed engine in his street bug) had mentioned using a remote thermometer to gauge when there is enough airflow through (yes, I said through) the engine compartment. One symptom of a hot running engine is so much heat radiating off of the engine itself that the dipstick, cylinder sheetmetal and the alternator are so hot you can barely leave your hand on for a few seconds. At this point you'll also find that a drop or 2 of water (or spit) on the top of the engine case itself will probably sizzle. Oil and head temps will confirm that it's too hot!, and the remote thermometer will show substantially higher temps in the engine compartment with the lid down. An extra cooler will lower oil temps but the rest of the engine will be happily cooking itself into oblivion (I know I've already used that expression today- so what!?). With the hole in the firewall (or front breastplate removed) there should be postitive air pressure in the engine compartment at speed, and if there's a way for the radiated heat to flow out of the engine compartment then that same radiated heat won't be re-ingested by the carburetors and cooling system. Holes in the inner fenderwells?  Carving up the underside of the engine lid?Holes behind the licence plate? Holes in the far back corners with ducting to introduce warmed air into the fenderwell airstream behind the rear wheels? When the under hood air temps approach ambient, you'll know you've got it right.

I haven't mentioned the aquarium tubing manometer for checking air pressure in the engine compartment lately, but there's another tool to tell you what's going on...

VW made it work in Beetles. We have to do our own r&d work as even real 356 owners have similar troubles with higher powered engines in their cars. I've posted it several times (and again just recently) so I'm not going to dig it up at the moment (I really have to get going! spent far too long here this morning) but you all have seen the 356 Speedster vintag racer ducting air into the engine compartment from the front of the car- the thing's gotta be a foot in diameter! When engine life is measured in sessions (not seasons) and rebuilds are expensive (as well as time consuming) they're doing everything they can to prolong engine life, and I'll bet it went up substantially with that 1 addition... Ok, so back Yoda is (told you stay away I could not!)

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

Cliff,

The engine Gordon put up was a Type 4 with a 911 shroud conversion (not sure which one, but looks a lot like an Ahnendorp). A stock cooling system looks like this:

You're right-- the Bergmann kits are super cool looking, but are unfortunately not very well regarded by some pretty smart people. Apparently, 1 and 3 gets lots of air and 2 and 4 much less-so. Since the thermal expansion rates are  different on the same heads, it creates more of an issue than if it were a matter of one side being warmer than the other.

Someday, I'm going to invest the time into making one that works, but for now-- the smart money is on a stock VW set-up or a DTM.

Stan,

Should you ever decide to make one I would like to be the first to buy a copy if you decide to go into production.  I know it would be First Class and top of the line.

Cliff