What's the problem with this?

@Wulfrik (John) perhaps locate a true "hot rod" guy that's seen and done it all...obviously these guys are not them ...just IMHO

Personally and if it was my car, I would not take it back there and would, instead, ask around, especially among the local VW crowd, to find someone far more competent than where you took it.  They may try to make it better and might succeed, but after how many more weeks?  And will they be charging you more for fixing their screw-ups?  It is obvious from the description and photos that they don't have a clue how to properly set up your car.  I can only imagine what the steering box looks like, and I would be embarrassed as hell to give a customer a car in that condition.  I don't even know if it is safe!

I would find a much better mechanic, but what you really need is a really good 4-wheel alignment, done by a shop that understands the early VW Beetle suspension, not that last place.  If it is set up right with the proper front caster, camber and toe-in, it should re-center on a straight road.  "Heavy Steering", especially at slow speeds, like in parking lots, is most often caused by a lot of front wheel caster but that should make it re-center on straights, too, so something in your steering geometry is out of whack and only a 4-wheel alignment will correct it.  Others on here should be able to guide you with proper alignment specs for your Spyder.

There are radiused ball joints for lowered cars at CB Performance and elsewhere to allow for dialing in steering geometry on lowered cars.   I've used them on mine.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/4073.htm

Many of us use them with great results.  I don't know what they used.  Same for a new steering box - CB Has those, too, although I would search for one made by TRW (they're better).  Those of us who bought TRW have been satisfied.  

Typically, if the horn blows when turning the steering wheel, the rubber coupling between the steering column and steering box is installed improperly, or the horn wire is not installed properly, or a cheap Asian steering shaft coupler with too big diameter bolts was used and the bolts short out against the column or box shaft flanges.  This also happens if the steering box is installed at the wrong angle for a lowered car, causing too much angle for the rubber coupler to the steering column.

There's probably more going on than I caught in your post, but please try to find a more competent place to work on your car.

Before taking it back to "them", perhaps consider "they" do not know what they are doing and, in all likelihood, will make things worse (as impossible as it is to imagine).

First of all, return-to-center is a function of caster.  The caster is set at the time the chassis is built.  If your front torsion beams are attached to the frame with VW stock clamps, there are such things as castor shims that can be inserted between the frame and the beam to change caster.  The more positive castor, the more the steering wants to center itself straight.

Also, keep in mind, the more positive caster, the heavier the steering effort (because it wants to go straight).  So, "more is not better".

You say the steering is heavy and it won't center.  That would be contrary to a caster problem because too much caster would be heavy steering/heavy centering; too little caster would be light steering/light centering.  So, there is more than just caster at play here, and it may turn out not to be caster at all.  And at this point, judging by the pictures of your wheel alignment, nothing would be surprising.

Put the steering dampener back on.  It was inexcusable to remove it.

Install the correct steering box, correctly positioned on the beam.  The box is notched to fit a pin on the beam for correct geometric position.  The reason the steering wheel shaft got long is "they" mismatched the original steering box or installed it rotated out of position on the beam.

The reason the horn is honking when you turn the wheel is because the horn wire is shorting on (or inside) the steering wheel shaft.  The horn wire enters a slot into the shaft on the steering box end of the shaft.  The wire goes up the shaft to the horn button.  When you press the horn, the wire is shorted (grounded) to the steering shaft and completing a circuit to honk the horn.  When you turn the steering wheel you are twisting the wire, and if the insulation is cut anywhere, it can short in the shaft and honk the horn.  Look at the slot where the wire enters the shaft, that's the most likely place.

Then there is the alignment.  What a mess.  Don't let these guys get anywhere near that again.

My recommendation:  Take it to a shop that knows how to do front end work on a VW beetle  --  any year.  Tell them you might have adjustable camber adjusters (which might be why your camber looks so cuckoo).  Actually, you could take it to any good tire shop and tell them to align it to '69 VW specs.  A good shop can also deal with any ball joint issues you might still have, and just maybe correct the problem you have with the wrong or miss installed steering box.  Might as well have them grease the wheel bearings while they are at it, and pump grease into the torsion beams.

All of your problems are easy to fix.  And quickly.

Gordon,  looks like you were posting while I was typing and basically saying the same thing.  If I were a few minutes later I could simply have posted:  "Yes, what Gordon said".

Gordon covered most of it, but there's this -- the steering is always going to be heavier than a modern car, which is why most replicas have big steering wheels.

The steering not recentering is almost for sure because:

A: There's not enough caster
B: Something is tight. Could be ball-joints (Gordon's ball-joints for lowered cars are an EMPI part we can't really do without), could be tie-rod ends, could be Pitman arm, could be the box itself. If the "6-week shop" tried to adjust the box at all, all bets are off.
C: The alignment is funky

We know the alignment is funky, but that's the last thing to fix, not the first. The first is A and B, C only happens when A and B are taken care of.

Sorry, friend. You absolutely need a new shop. Your locations says, "South Florida". @chines1 -- any good shops in Miami/Dade?

On most Spyders I believe that the front beam is welded to the frame and serves as the front crossmember as well, making a caster adjustment by moving the beam relative to the frame impossible.  You can increase caster by lowering the rear of the car.  I had a similar problem with my Gen I Beck Speedster that also has the beam welded in as part of the frame because I asked Carey to raise the rear to avoid dragging on the driveway.  Steering was weird and didn't return to center with much certainty, but it was light.  When I raised the front and lowered the rear of the car just a little it felt much better.

This may not fit your TR, but it's worth looking into. I'm afraid I have nothing to offer on the other issues.  Good luck.

Stan wrote this to jog my memory (not all that easy to do these days, and STAN!  I'm off that friggin Codeine! ):

"If the "6-week shop" tried to adjust the box at all, all bets are off."

Exactly - We don't know how much they've screwed up the box, in addition to everything else.  Improper force adjusted onto the steering box worm drive will keep it from centering and feel heavy, but there are so many things screwed up in your car, we simply don't know what's going on.  As I said earlier, I would be embarrassed to deliver a car in that condition, and, from any reputable shop, that would never happen.  All of it is an easy fix, but there is just so much incompetence there.....

These VW-style steering boxes are adjustable.  Very few people know how to adjust them properly.  There are very good and detailed adjustment instructions in the Bentley Service Manual for VW Type 1 1969 - 1979 which can be easily and successfully followed.  It's not hard to do, but there is a process that should not be deviated from at all.  These manuals are on e-Bay for a bit less as used books, too.  You should have one, if only to let your new mechanic use it (they'll appreciate that more than a box of Brownies).

https://socalautoparts.com/pro...wNwZzwRoCjAYQAvD_BwE

Hopefully, we can find you a better shop in South Florida, but if we knew what town/city you're in, that would help.  Once we know that, we could ask over on the Samba or VW Vortex to see if we can get you a much better shop.  

@Wulfrik (John)   Worst case scenario, call Gunnar Racing in Riviera Beach. It won't be cheap, but they know what they're doing. They restore vintage Porsches to the Nth degree and set up race cars. 561-844-8482 I know it's up the coast a bit for you, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

If they don't do it, they might know someone who will.

I drove my first replica 550 there.

Sorry for your trouble, John. Nothing much to add to Mark's advice but as the former owner of a TR Spyder:

1. Caster is what returns the wheels to center, and it is not adjustable because the beam is welded to the frame tubes. Lowering the rear or—better!—raising the front a little will absolutely help. Never set the stance of your car crosswise with what's needed to make it drive right.

2. All these cars do not return to center like your Toyota or F150. Just go with it. They track plenty straight all the same.

3. Steering damper is a must, as is the steering box being adjusted properly both internally (which will give you the tightness and directness you want) and in terms of its position on the beam. Whatever the "pin" system is meant to place it correct for a Beetle may be, the right spot on a Spyder is aligned so the rag joint is flat. Make sure it's there and the steering wheel should fall into place. As Danny P advises, it's crucial to find the center of the box and set that before trying to align the front end. The steering needs to be right at center when the car is going straight for the (little bit of) self-centering in it to work. Any decent alignment shop should be able to do it.*

4. Camber on the left is easy to fix by turning the adjuster. You can do that in your driveway. Use the level on your phone to get it to about 1-1.5 degrees negative. Then set the toe-in to 3/16ths or so.

5. The horn system is always screwy but they should not have messed it up. Mark's advice, again.

--

*But, alas, many won't touch the car because it's strange and frightening. That's why I diy'd mine.

Gentlemen, thanks for the fantastic information, and I want to respond to each of you.  Right now, though, y’all inspired me greatly and so I’m straight after the issues today.  

I’ve fixed the camber issue — easy-peasy.  

I’ve got my Haynes manual out, but it’s not helping me so much with the rag joint thingy that Ed talked about.  I’ve attached a photo here >> if I loosen that coupling clamp  (with my finger touching), will the steering column slide on that grooved rod? Which would move the steering column closer to the steering box?  

@Wulfrik (John)

"if I loosen that coupling clamp  (with my finger touching), will the steering column slide on that grooved rod?"

Yes, but to get the steering shaft (going to the steering wheel) to move enough you may have to move the shafts on both sides of the rubber coupler.  Start with one side and see if that's enough.  If you need more, loosen and slide the other side's clamp.

Ed mentioned moving the steering box, if needed, to get the rubber coupler "flat" when in a normal state.  That means that both the steering box shaft and the steering column shaft are close to the same angle when properly aligned.  If not, the rubber coupler will be torqued around when rotating the steering wheel to make up for the shaft angle differences.  When that happens, the rubber gets distorted and the opposing bolts/nuts can touch each other and - "BEEP!"  The fix is getting the shaft angles equal by rotating the steering box on the torsion tube to a different angle (usually lower).  There are two notches on the torsion tube and a corresponding tooth on the steering box mounting flange.  One is for sedans and the other is for the lower Karman Ghias - YOU want the Karman Ghia setting.

To cure the horn beeping on turns, I have also had good luck by using rubber coupler bolts with smaller heads, like Allen-head socket bolts.  I found them at Ace Hardware and they worked well.

You have to break in almost all new ball joints and tie rod ends.  They are oversized (we assume worn out tooling/dies) and when they press in it is almost like they are seized.  Many tie rod ends are Way too tight out of the box also.  I can't even recommend a brand, one week one brand is good, the next they are $h!t, so we fell them all after install and break in accordingly.  I'd say 9:10 we have to break in manually.

Also check the orientation of the ball joint, there are 2 notches and they have to be oriented properly in order to move.  They will SPIN 360 put they will not rotate 360, they are in a groove unlike other makes of ball joint, so the notches mean something very important.

We see different input shaft lengths on different brands of steering box.  They have a flat groove that allows for some adjustment to the steering shaft, but only 1/2" or so.  If you need more adjustment that that you'll need to look at the orientation of the box, and it is properly installed you'll need to modify your shaft length or your outer tube length to accommodate.

Based on the fact that we can SEE how off your alignment is in photos, there are some real issues there.  Hard to believe a shop would let that out of the door...

For clarity, here is a picture of what Carey is speaking about.  Notice the notch in the balljoint is lined up with the notch in the trailing arm.

And just for fun, here is one of the rebuilt arms with new, extended lower shock mounts.  Getting the old shock mounts out was a mini ordeal.

@Wulfrik (John) posted:

Gentlemen, thanks for the fantastic information, and I want to respond to each of you.  Right now, though, y’all inspired me greatly and so I’m straight after the issues today.  

I’ve fixed the camber issue — easy-peasy.  

I’ve got my Haynes manual out, but it’s not helping me so much with the rag joint thingy that Ed talked about.  I’ve attached a photo here >> if I loosen that coupling clamp  (with my finger touching), will the steering column slide on that grooved rod? Which would move the steering column closer to the steering box?  

Yeah but you may need to hit it with a hammer. If so, do not.

@Wulfrik (John) posted:

Gentlemen, thanks for the fantastic information, and I want to respond to each of you.  Right now, though, y’all inspired me greatly and so I’m straight after the issues today.  

I’ve fixed the camber issue — easy-peasy.  

I’ve got my Haynes manual out, but it’s not helping me so much with the rag joint thingy that Ed talked about.  I’ve attached a photo here >> if I loosen that coupling clamp  (with my finger touching), will the steering column slide on that grooved rod? Which would move the steering column closer to the steering box?  

Yes, this is where you want adjust column length and it looks like you have plenty of adjustment and they have it set all the way back.  It also look like you have the bolt on biscuit coupler so just loosen the clamp where you are pointing and push your wheel forward to where you want it, then tighten.  When done, have someone turn the wheel lock to lock and review how much flex you have in the coupler/biscuit.  A little is OK, you just don't want a ton of misalignment and flex in that coupler as it'll wear quickly if so.

All good advice up above, John. One thing is missing though.

All the VW places sell aftermarket camber eccentrics/adjusters. The stock adjusters give some adjustment range, but the aftermarket ones give you more.

I bought them and used them to get 1.5 degrees negative camber on the front wheels. But there is a side benefit to these adjusters.

If you look at the factory/stock ones, you will see that the hole for the ball joint stud is MUCH closer to center. The advantage to these is you can use them to get more caster in a Spyder if you go for a reasonable(.5 to 1 degree) amount of camber.

You will get the same amount of camber at 2 spots, since the eccentric will rotate through 360 degrees. The spot where the hole is forward is WRONG. The hole must be toward the rear of the car, slightly laying the spindle to the rear giving you the extra caster(self-centering) you may need.

The only other way to get more caster in a Spyder is to cut the beam out, reposition and re-weld it to the chassis. Certainly not something I'd try at home.

And get the car away from those hacks, they clearly have no clue whatsoever. Everything is fixable by a competent VW shop, and quickly. And put a new steering damper back in there.

Guys, I can't y'all enough for all of the valuable information that you provided so swiftly.  After being angry and -- quite frankly -- very bummed about the situation, y'all got me pumped up and I spent Saturday getting it all back in order. 

@jncspyder posted:

@Wulfrik (John) perhaps locate a true "hot rod" guy that's seen and done it all...obviously these guys are not them ...just IMHO

They are NOT!  😝  Thanks for encouragement.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

There are radiused ball joints for lowered cars at CB Performance and elsewhere to allow for dialing in steering geometry on lowered cars.   I've used them on mine.

Many of us use them with great results.  I don't know what they used.  Same for a new steering box - CB Has those, too, although I would search for one made by TRW (they're better).  Those of us who bought TRW have been satisfied.  

Typically, if the horn blows when turning the steering wheel, the rubber coupling between the steering column and steering box is installed improperly, or the horn wire is not installed properly, or a cheap Asian steering shaft coupler with too big diameter bolts was used and the bolts short out against the column or box shaft flanges.  This also happens if the steering box is installed at the wrong angle for a lowered car, causing too much angle for the rubber coupler to the steering column.

@Gordon Nichols -- Thank you, Sir.  The ball joints are indeed radiused (don't know if they're installed to spec, of course), and the new steering box is a TRW (and I can only assume that they didn't mess with the settings after they installed it).  Thanks also for the comments about the horn.  I just went after it, not realizing it was hot -- you coulda mentioned that, Gordon!  😆 Only a few sparks, I didn't put my eye out, so all is well. 

@RS-60 mark posted:

Put the steering dampener back on.  It was inexcusable to remove it.

Install the correct steering box, correctly positioned on the beam.  The box is notched to fit a pin on the beam for correct geometric position.  The reason the steering wheel shaft got long is "they" mismatched the original steering box or installed it rotated out of position on the beam.

The reason the horn is honking when you turn the wheel is because the horn wire is shorting on (or inside) the steering wheel shaft.  The horn wire enters a slot into the shaft on the steering box end of the shaft.  The wire goes up the shaft to the horn button.  When you press the horn, the wire is shorted (grounded) to the steering shaft and completing a circuit to honk the horn.  When you turn the steering wheel you are twisting the wire, and if the insulation is cut anywhere, it can short in the shaft and honk the horn.  Look at the slot where the wire enters the shaft, that's the most likely place.

@RS-60 mark -- Thank you very much for the quick study on caster -- I learned a lot.  And, thanks for the side messaging, too.   Yes, I'm going to put the steering dampener back on.  The car does actually handle more "lighter" than it did before they replaced the box and two of the ball joints, so I'm going to see if reinstalling the dampener adversely affects this.  Regarding the horn shorting >> with advice from both you and Gordon, I found the problem.  The horn wire was terminated with a loop connector and then affixed to one of the bolts on the steering coupler.   The bolt was screwed in tightly, but they allowed the loop to spin with it, so the connector was jammed up against the shaft.  Where it was jammed, it frayed a hole in the insulator, creating a short.  I loosened the bolt, centered up the loop connector away from the shaft and retightened the bolt.  Problem solved.  ;-)

@Stan Galat posted:

Gordon covered most of it, but there's this -- the steering is always going to be heavier than a modern car, which is why most replicas have big steering wheels.

A: There's not enough caster
B: Something is tight. Could be ball-joints (Gordon's ball-joints for lowered cars are an EMPI part we can't really do without), could be tie-rod ends, could be Pitman arm, could be the box itself. If the "6-week shop" tried to adjust the box at all, all bets are off.
C: The alignment is funky

@Stan Galat -- Thanks for the reality check on the steering effort.  Regarding the caster thing >>  I've actually got some room left in the adjusting screw on the beam to raise the front end of the car (I've already done it once, but it can go some more).   I'm going to try that.  All of the ball joints have been replaced, along with the tie rods. Still, I know that they will perhaps need some time to loosen up. 

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Hopefully, we can find you a better shop in South Florida, but if we knew what town/city you're in, that would help.  Once we know that, we could ask over on the Samba or VW Vortex to see if we can get you a much better shop.  

@Gordon Nichols By nature and by trade, I'm a networker and a greeter.  In one of my business groups, they call me, "The Mayor."  As such, I have chatted up every VW owner that I've come across over the past year, whether they be at a car show, at a local pub, or even at a traffic light!  I have searched the WWW, and I've called over a dozen shops in the area to see if they "have a guy" on staff that knows aircooled VW.  I've found two, one of which won't touch my car, and the other which was "okay," but still didn't get it done, which is why I went to this last shop -- who I interviewed in person, asking them direct questions, and they assured me that they had the talent on staff to repair it correctly.  😠 But, I'm not giving up!  I have a lead on another "guy," and as always, I'm confident that he'll be the one. 

@edsnova posted:

All these cars do not return to center like your Toyota or F150. Just go with it. They track plenty straight all the same.

Steering damper is a must, as is the steering box being adjusted properly both internally (which will give you the tightness and directness you want) and in terms of its position on the beam. Whatever the "pin" system is meant to place it correct for a Beetle may be, the right spot on a Spyder is aligned so the rag joint is flat.

Camber on the left is easy to fix by turning the adjuster. You can do that in your driveway.

@edsnova -- thanks for the comment on the not returning to center thing.  While it still does it, it is much better than before.  I'll live with it.  The steering box appears to be installed correctly on the beam with both shafts being parallel to each other and with the rag joint being flat.  Much appreciate the comment about the adjuster being an easy "driveway" fix.  You were right, and it was. 😉

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Yes, but to get the steering shaft (going to the steering wheel) to move enough you may have to move the shafts on both sides of the rubber coupler.  Start with one side and see if that's enough.  If you need more, loosen and slide the other side's clamp.

@Gordon Nichols -- Thanks for mentioning "both sides of the rubber coupler," as I tried the steering box side first, and that didn't get it.  With your comment, I then went after the other side.  That got it!  Thanks!   

@chines1 posted:

Also check the orientation of the ball joint, there are 2 notches and they have to be oriented properly in order to move.  They will SPIN 360 put they will not rotate 360, they are in a groove unlike other makes of ball joint, so the notches mean something very important.

We see different input shaft lengths on different brands of steering box. 

@chines1  -- I'm going to check all of the notches -- thanks for the advice on that, Carey.  And, thanks for the comment of experience regarding the varying shaft lengths on otherwise proper steering boxes.  I'm going to assume for now that's what happened with mine. 

@LI-Rick posted:

@LI-Rick Perfect!  Thanks for the visuals!  :-)

@edsnova posted:

Yeah but you may need to hit it with a hammer. If so, do not.

@edsnova -- Hmmmm....well, too late on this one, as I had to give it some firm "love taps" with a rubber mallet.  Still, it wasn't hard ****, and as far as I can tell, none of the animals used were injured during the process. 

@chines1 posted:

Yes, this is where you want adjust column length and it looks like you have plenty of adjustment and they have it set all the way back.  It also look like you have the bolt on biscuit coupler so just loosen the clamp where you are pointing and push your wheel forward to where you want it, then tighten.  When done, have someone turn the wheel lock to lock and review how much flex you have in the coupler/biscuit.  A little is OK, you just don't want a ton of misalignment and flex in that coupler as it'll wear quickly if so.

@chines1 -- as far as I can tell, there isn't much flexing going on with the biscuit.  Thank you, Sir. 

Gentlemen, if you've read this far, thank you all again!   I had this past Saturday to figure all of this stuff out and get it back in order, as I was entered into a large (255 cars) Fathers Day car show the next morning.  Y'all answered my questions swiftly, and with great clarity and encouragement.  At the end of the day, I was full of pride in tackling tasks I hadn't done before.  Before dinner that night, I celebrated with a large and delicious Old Fashioned made with Sazerac Rye, and FOUR dark, marinated cherries.  Victory was mine!  😁

Cheers, John. These guys are the best and amazing help for everyone on the forum. You did a good job for diving into the fixes!

But, I'm not giving up!  I have a lead on another "guy," and as always, I'm confident that he'll be the one.

I think you have already found "the guy".  We all become our own "guy" eventually.