What would you do ?

Tricky subject, but I'll give it a go.

On the 6th December last year, I gave a vendor $2000 as part payment to supply and install a Weber Redline EFI system in my Speedster. Some of you know who the vendor is, because you were there when we did the deal. I don't intend to name him on here at this point.

At the time, he said that he could do the job before the holiday, but would rather wait until afterwards. Mid-Jan latest seemed to be agreeable, and certainly worked for me, as the car wasn't being used much in the poor weather. He would need to have a manifold custom fabricated, but that was factored into the timeline. He had a good contact at Weber, a technician who understood the mapping process, and a guy lined up to do the manifold.

December came and went, as did January. The Weber kit appears to have been purchased, as he sent me photos. The manifold seemed to have been fabricated, as he sent me a photo.

After a couple of phone calls he said that he wasn't happy with the manifold, and was having it redone. February came and went.

March came and went, with me making a couple of phone calls to chase progress.

By the end of March, I was getting a little bit pissed. After a couple more phone calls, he said that his 'friend' had let him down on the manifold. Also he'd been super busy (aren't we all ?). We agreed that he would give me my money back, as this just wasn't working out. We agreed one week to sort it out.

Two weeks comes and goes. Nothing. I phone again, he says he will refund my money on Monday. He'll call me. Monday comes and goes. No contact. Two more weeks pass, and now he's not returning phone calls or voicemails.

Last Saturday, I take a 60 mile round trip to visit him at his shop. He seems a little surprised to see me, and asks me what's up. I say "that's what I'm here to ask you..."

He then tells me that he's been busy, his friend is a flake, and that running a business like his is tough. He also tells me that this is custom work, and I have to expect problems and delays. I don't feel too picky when I tell him that if that's how he feels, he shouldn't have promised me the job in early January.

He tells me he doesn't have my money, but he can give me the parts that he bought. I tell him that if I had wanted a box of bits from Weber Redline, I would have used the internet. He tells me that he will get me some money as soon as he can in part payment to show good faith. I remind him that this is the 4th time that he has promised me my money. That was last Saturday, today is Wednesday, and it is 5 months ago that I parted with my $2000.

So, the question is - what would you do ? I'm not naming him on here, as I believe in giving people a fair shot. He has done work in the past for others on here, and to their total satisfaction as far as I can see.

Not much to gain in telling me that EFI is a waste of money, as I'm already past that point right now. Oh, and Vince is the only one who can kinda say 'I told you so', as he pointed out last year that 60 miles round trip would feel like a long way to go to sort out teething problems with the system. That said, when I saw Vince's new VS the other day, it did make me think what a lot can be achieved in 3 weeks ;)

I'm genuinely interested in your views - I've not written this just to blow off steam, or to discredit the vendor by name in public.

John.

I have been messing around with custom cars for about 15 years now and this and similar stories are somewhat common. On one hand, I could say that the situation is ridiculous and on the other, I could say that it is custom work and stuff happens.

Frankly, most of us have never walked in the shoes of a custom builder. Those of us that get irate enough, sometimes choose to exercise the court system to get some sort of justice or, in most cases, retribution. Sadly, we soon find out that this road is clogged with bureaucracy and more high cost and seldom achieves any meaningful end.

My advice would be to write it off as a bad investment and move on. Every dime that we invest into our toys cannot be a screaming success and sometimes the aggravation is not worth the worry and anger. I doubt seriously that the vendor set out to somehow screw you on the deal. Perhaps time to pop a Bud Light Lime.

IMHO by writing it off, you allow the vendor to be the one who makes out as he has your hard earned cash.
Time to take them to court with documentation as you do herein and get a judgement in your favor. Even if prior to the actual appearance date the vendo tries to make a deal with you i.e. a partial payment, take then to court. Then post final details to keep others from being taken over the coals.

Bubba, Guido.....You guys reading this?????

Been to court recently, Alan? Not quite that simple.

Well, I'll respect your wish to keep the vendor nameless, but a "60-mile r/t" pretty much gives it up. I would send a registered letter, document your e-mails, phone calls and then file a small claim against him. Charles must have money to burn, others don't-and while it could possibly be a loss for you, these guys must be held accountable! As Alan stated, it is YOUR hard-earned money. I say turn up the heat; I don't like people who go back on a deal. I'm old-fashioned: my Grandfather taught me that when you shake hands on something, it's done. The vendor has not lived up to his ageement, so don't roll over. Again, no need to publicly stir up the restless on this forum...YET!

Sent him registered letter giving him 10 days to refund your money if full. Then file for small claims court. File complaint with BBB and his his name here and on the SAMBA. Crooks don't deserve to remain in business.

If this is the builder that I have read has a "shop full of builds in progress" then he certainly should have 2 grand that he can cough-up to make things right. There's no excuse for what he is doing. Don't drop it until you have every penny back in your account.

Small claims court is not as simple as it looks on The People's Court. The way it works (at least in California) is that you file your claim and you get a judgement that says he owes you the money, but it doesn't make him pay.

You have to go back to court and get a lien against his home or wage garnishment, etc.. You can also have them come back into court for a debtor's examination. At that hearing you can ask all kinds of questions about their assets and debts, including bank account numbers. You can even ask them how much money they have with them at that time and take it.

I went through this process once and it was a pain in the ass, but there was a principle involved and I eventually got my money.
Troy

Troy not a car builder but an engine builder.
Alan u have email

Ive been in this situation. It stinks. At lease it's a 60 mi round trip, and not a 7000 mi round trip like it is in the Midwest. You have some options- pity the guys who bought this stuff on the internet, or over the phone, and will never see a dime or any parts.

The whole thing is the curse of a hobby with a small footprint- there's not enough quality competition to service it, so half-wits and charlatans become the vendors.

High achieving people will typically start and run businesses where they are ensured a greater or more prosperous customer base. VW people are notoriously cheap and not getting any more numerous, so it's a bit of a poor business model for people to get into. There are some good guys left, but Jake Raby is pointing the way to the door- tired of cheap customers and junk parts. The fields are SO much greener elsewhere that it doesn't matter how much he loves the ACVW, or how good he is at it- he can make 10x as much servicing more numerous and better paying rich guys.

Enter the idiots into the void. Promises are made and broken. Customers are reluctant to hold a vendors feet to the fire, or even name them- because to do so would pretty much ensure that they would never see a dime of their money back.

Situations like this are a bad deal. They are also the result of being on the fringe of a fringe hobby. In this instance, I'm not sure there IS a good solution. Typically what would happen would be one of three things:

1) The customer would take what he could get (the parts), and feel lucky to have gotten anything at all.

2) The customer would threaten the vendor with legal action and nothing would happen unless he was prepared to spend $5K to get his $2K back.

3) The customer would threaten the vendor with bodily harm, and get nothing but a possible arrest.

We've got major vendors (car builders) who have gone under, taking down hundreds of people with them. They invariably resurface like a phoenix from the ashes, and everybody believes that "this time it'll be different". It's not. Eventually, the back-log and excuses start piling up, the music stops, and somebody is left without a chair.

Be careful. It's a jungle out there.

John: I believe that I know who you are referring to and I must relate that I had a similar experience regarding an engine/warranty issue that required an engine tear down and re assembly. Lots of delays (3 months for basically an O'haul... WTF), and LOUSY communication.
I hesitated to call him out here in the Forums because others felt that he's done right in the past. Evidently that's changed and I feel that you should OUT him here so that others are spared.
Doug, Sherry and the Tinker Toy.....

All,

Thanks - interesting reaction so far. Gerd is right to jump in and clarify. This is not a car builder we are talking about. It's an engine builder (primarily). They are not featured in either the Makers or Shops tabs on this site, as far as I can see, although well known to a lot of the SoCal crowd.

I'm sure that this never began with an intent to let me down, or to simply take my money. I think that he may be in a bit over his head on this project or some others. Maybe I should simply take the box of bits and be done with the whole thing. His view is probably that he can't give my money back until he gets his money back for the parts he has already purchased. Either way, it's a pretty poor way to run a business IMHO.

My two cents....I would try and work out the original deal with this guy over time, so at least you get your money's worth, and he has time to make it all right.....There are guys waiting years for a tub to get built....In the mean time, drive it, and although I feel your pain, in the end, perhaps it will work it's way out...
It sounds like the guy is reputable for the most part, and had good intentions at the time, so give him the opportunity to make it right...
Going to court without some sort of written agreement won't work unless he is willing to say he made a verbal agreement with you, and it doesn't sound like that will happen, and I don't think walking away from 2K is acceptable, at least to me...

The topic was " What would you do "
What I stated is what I would do and have done in the past.
" Be Prepared " I'm self employed for a number of years and by being prepared, I have represented myself and business ( screw paying a lawyer) by having detailed notes and refuse to get flustered in court, hesitiate when responding to a posed questions as this gives you a reasonable moment to consider how your response may be taken and allows for a change in how you will answer and most importantly a deep breath to ease what may be a verbal attitude.
My busines even beat the IRS at their half assed audit attempt against my businesss, we keep our ducks 100% in a row and by doing so, the IRS had to pay ME .... $858.00.
OK, so I would already have fully documented details sent to the Judge two weeks prior to the hearing along with the name of the defendents bank and checking account number so that all documents are reviewed in advance to the actual court appearance. Upon judgement in my favor, I would request a garnishment be levied.
Hey that's MY, hard earned money.

And if for some reason that failed I would ring up one Mr. Joe Catullo of Staten Island. Disclaimer : That's just, a thought.

John B personally id like to know who it is. can u email me directly, i will not disclose. baumerbarncobob@aol.com

Vince -

How about a box of 'almost new' fuel injection bits as a Pismo raffle prize ??

Without going into too much detail, I had some problems with my builder/partner while my engine was under construction. The answer for me was to be physically present during any work.
It cost me a lot of time, but since the entire car was the project and the engine was only one phase, I was in for the whole dollar by the time the engine got built.
I know enough about the scheduling process now, though, to say if you don't keep standing at the counter and ringing the bell, you'll get pushed aside by those who do. Perhaps taking your box of parts to a more responsive builder will net better results than a suit -- and an explanation to the new engine mechanic will net you a reduced price on putting it all together.
I can't speak for the guys on the West Coast who frequent the site, but I have heard nothing but good things regarding Larry's work, Roland's work or that of a few other guys who live out there in Cali ... maybe one of them could help you 'pick up the pieces,' so to speak.
I sure wouldn't keep going back to the same font for a drink of "Ain't Happening," though. Seems like a waste of time at this point.

Cory,

Appreciate your thoughts. For me, that would amount to buying a dog and then barking myself. I don't have the time, and I certainly don't have the expertise. I thought that's what I was buying.

John

JOHN TELL THEM THE TRUTH ITS VINCE'S BROTHER-INLAW SHIFTY LIFTY

Just so everyone know's, here is the culprit.....I believe there was a mis-communication over the word "Injection"

:)

There it went. Hard to get a straight answer isn't it,John?

It's all good with me. The consistent theme is that 5 months is a bit too long (!). My guess is that it will be more like 9 months if I wait for an install to be completed.

He over promised, then got let down by suppliers/friends. He failed to put them under pressure, and didn't find an alternative source. The whole sorry episode was compounded by shitty customer service. I've spent 25 years in a very customer-centric business, and I've never found that the words 'I'm busy' do much to make customers feel better - especially if I'm the one at fault.

John, I am sorry that this has devolved to the point of a loss of faith, face, and maybe money. You asked what I would do. So here goes. I would make one phone call. If I got through I would request a meeting. At the meeting I would talk things over face to face. I am an understanding, patient person and I think that you are also. After the face to face attempt on your part if not satisfied file small claims. It's simple, you don't need a lawyer and you may get your money returned. If that fails, just forget it. It is not so serious a deal to get all tied up in the head over. Good luck. And if your Webers get out of whack, I'll try and fix 'em for ya!

Contact the Southern Mafia!

Will,

Appreciate it - you know more about what's going on with this situation than most. Last Saturday was supposed to be just that - an opportunity to straighten it out. Given that he promised me some 'good faith' money when I drove down to see him, I might have reasonably expected a phone call this week. Nothing.

I know that he uses this site quite a bit, so maybe he'll step up and do the right thing, or at least take a step towards it.

Hope all is good at your end. See you in Pismo.

John

JOHN
HE IS NEVER GOING TO PAY U CONSIDERING HIS BEHAVIOR TO DATE
TAKE WILL'S ADVICE AND DO SMALL CLAIMS COURT AND DIVULGE HIS NAME ON THIS SITE
SEE U IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS
PS CARROL AND I LOVE THE BADGE U GAVE US AND HAVE MOUNTED IT ON THE DECK LID

Hey Gerd....mount this....

As a custom builder I have to call BS on the stories and timelines that have been missed. There is NO REASON why the customer has to continually make contact with the builder and there is never excuse for shoddy communication on the part of the builder.

I see issues where builders over commit all the time because they take on work just so they can get the work, all the while the KNOW that they'll never get it done in time. Generally the purchaser will be fine with delays and hiccups as long as the BUILDER stays in touch and shows progress and promise. I am not exactly on perfect delivery times on all occasions, but the difference is we contact everyone on our lists at least every two weeks while they are waiting and send them pics and progress reports.

If the customer has to ask for an update, we feel that we have failed. When someone buys an engine from us they KNOW up front its going to take 7-9 months to receive and they sign off on that. If I were like the majority I'd know that the reality is the engine will take 9 months to create, but I'd say "We'll be done in two months", because I know that most people want something in less than 60 days.

Lots of businesses that were robbing Peter to pay Paul and being ran on a shoestring by less than dedicated individuals have suffered in this economy more than anyone and they should. Things like economic crunches can be a form of "natural selection" for businesses. I hear these horror stories all the time about missed delivery dates, lies, cars and engines that don't exist and other unbelievable situations and the economy has made it worse. There are some companies out there who were ran by honest people that over-extended themselves and now they are having to rob people to stay alive and those honest people have done a 180 turn and ended up horrible.

If I were the purchaser in the situation I'd write the whole thing off and go elsewhere. When a project takes a turn down this route it will spiral out of control and never have positive results. Always engage with a Proposal, have a delivery date and a "drop dead date" and a plan of action agreed to up front in case less than favorable occurrences become reality. Here we work only by proposal, we continually communicate, never make the customer ask us where the project is and we never have issues with clients being satisfied, even if we took two months longer due to a problem. The key is communication.

From what I see today I don't feel that most of the people in this industry deserve to own businesses, because they can't run them in a professional and organized manner. They take every job they can get, snag them with unrealistic claims and completion dates and then they end up losing their entire reputation because they don't deliver, don't communicate and don't meet the expectations that they promised the purchaser up front. I learned long ago not to take every job that comes along, add at least 6 weeks more into every proposal that is written up and that there is no such thing as too much communication.

Being "too busy" is never a valid explanation for generally sucking. Overcommitment and under delivery.. Gotta love it.

My hunch is your 2K bought parts for someone else's project and the installer figured out that he priced the job too cheaply for him to have any incentive to carry it out. 2K gets NO WHERE with an EFI arrangement, that price was too good to be true.

Stan was very much correct in his post. I LOVE the ACVW and have dedicated my life to it's development and application. The fact is the parts have gone to hell and its all about cheap prices. We still have a very loyal following, but I don't see the need to stay on course with a destination of excellence for the few people that appreciate what we create enough to pay the required price of admission. I've been applying myself in other fields, having more fun and working with modern concepts that have no Chinese components to taint the food chain.

It appears that this was a custom EFI application (most likely do to the urban legend that carburetors are a product of the devil). If $2k was given as a deposit and parts where bought, I have to think that the $2k worth of EFI would look like bits and pieces in a box and that the builder did invested all of the $2K into the project.

If he returns your $2k, he is out of pocket on that money for parts and TIME. You should be happy that he is willing to talk about some type of refund (most would have said tough luck and be on your way), but expecting to get all your money back I think is a bit unreasonable for a custom one off prototype job.

My advise is: Make a concision with him. See what you and him think would be a good solution so both of you are not taking it in the shorts. If you do that, and are able to feel good about the compromise, you both will feel better about this whole deal and part amicably.

Think of it as a "win" "win" or as a "loose less" "loos less" situation.

John, why did he have to make custom manifolds? As far as I know, manifolds come with the kit or, depending on the type of injection, your existing manifolds can be altered to accept injectors

So, what's the status of this situation? I'm just now doing a semi-annual check-in and am interested in FI. I see this and read through and am disappointed for the original party/victim.

I don't think small claims is a hassle. I've been successful and I have been left holding the bag. If the guy has a business one of the solutions is to tap his checking account with the appropriate paperwork. I don't know if you can still arrange for a 'keeper' with the sheriff's department, but I did that once to a store owner. Essentially a sheriff stands at the till all day and as money comes into the business he takes it. I admit I have ridden liens into the ground but I have also been able to get in position to own an entire condo-complex. Don't under estimate the power of a lien.

If you can walk away from $2,000.00 and sit, chant and be at peace with yourself, fine. If you tend toward high blood pressure and mayhem, as pointed out subtly elsewhere in this thread, there are steps... I suggest the middle ground and if this is a continuing, unresolved problem go to small claim's court, There are advocacy groups and publications and a whole internut's wealth of information. You don't have to spend $5,000 to get your $2,000 that's stupid.

I wish you well and I would not hesitate to name names as your patience and sense of fair play have been walked all over from the sounds of it.

late to the thread, but I agree with Paul and Alan. to improve the situation generally you have to be willing to impose progressive discipline, even if you're not going to benefit immediately. There's a cost either way. The question is whether you are going to "externalize" the cost, or find a way to deter it from happenning in the future to someone else...