Whats a 356 Worth?

I am new to these cars and doing as much research as I can to understand what makes a good car from a bad car. I also plan on buying used once identify what I really want.

When the time comes, How do you determine what the true market value is? Is there a guide like KBB or NADA to help me understand the value? I am scared I am going to price it based on the love for it and you know that allways leads to paying more then you should.

Steve E. AKA 356 Newbie.

I have read the webpages for each builder and based on what they say, its better to go with a tubular chassis.

Has anyone owned both types of replica modified vw chassis as well as a tubular chassis? If so, can you explain your future prefrence as well as help me justify if the extra cost is worth it?

I havent been in a replica yet and dont know what to expect from the ride.

I am looking for a daily driver so that is why I am going the replica route.

Just trying to collect as much data as possible. In fact, I am looking at a vintagespeester build this weekend.

Thanks,

Steve E.

steve, where are you planning to make this car into a daily driver? If you want a speedster as a daily driver you will have water coming in when it rains. Or you need to switch your thinking to a Convertible D from IM or a Cabriolet from SAW. These two options have roll up windows and will provide fairly good sealing off of water. Of course they won't be perfectly water tight, but they won't have a lot of water pouring in either.

The heat from a VW based car is only adequate to about 20 degrees F. Below that it isn't going to keep up, but if you leave your winter coat on, you will be just fine. Again where the speedster leaks in the air will leak out in the winter so its tough on that model to keep up with real cold weather. IM makes a fan boosted heater box system that works pretty good. But if you get a heater box system with out the fan boost it will not do nearly as well.

Steve, I have owned both, a 2000 VS (VW pan based) and my current ride, a 2004 SAW Cabriolet (proprietary tube chassis). I would not hesitate to take my newer ride anywhere, but since it is my baby, I don't want to expose it to really bad weather needlessly. I did a cross country from home to Knotts in April, so I am confident in both the heat and the A/C. Weather sealing is almost perfect.

All this being said, the VS was a great car for starting out and is perfectly suitable as a fun car. As a daily driver, I don't think I would do that, but keeping in mind what Steven asked, it depends on where you live and also what your expectations are.

Feel free to contact me offline if you have questions about my current ride. In any event, happy hunting.
Hoss

I live in So Cal.(Valencia Area) Magic Mountain. We get 330 days of sun up here and when it rains, its only for a short time. We dont get many cold days and normally its only cold at night during winter.

My daily drive is only about 5 miles each way and that is why I think I can drive a car like this as a daily driver. I figure it will be fun and can also serve the purpose of getting me to work.

As I said before, I am trying to understand as much as I can about these cars. I love the way they look and I think it would be way cool to own one.

I dont want to own something I cant drive and that is why a replica makes more sense then the real deal. I would worry to much about a real one.

Steve E.

The only question I have left is do you have another car "extra car" or do you want this to be a daily driver because you won't have another car.

I ask this question becuase most of the insurance companies don't like insuring these cars if it is your only car. Or if there are 3 drivers and only 3 cars. They are usually going to want to see that this is an extra car. You will also have to shop around a little on the insurance as some won't allow you to drive the car daily to work and back. I know what your thinking, "how will they know?" They won't but if your in an expensive accident and they want to weasle out they will find some people who can testify the car was in your parking lot most days at work, and they will get out of the whole mess. Don't try and lie or if things go bad they will nail you and its just like you didn't have any insurance.

Sounds like weather is no concern. So buy whichever one appeals to you the most, and is in your budget. Do you have any past experience with VW engines?

Thanks for the approach on the insurance. It will be a 3rd car as I have a car I drive to work with everyday. My wife also has her car. I just know that if I had a car like this, I would want to drive it everyday.

I have never owned an aircooled VW motor, however, I have read about the requirement to make adjustments on an ongoing basis. Sounds like that can be a pain. The approach to use a water cooled 4 cyclinder motor makes sense but also add's cost.

I started into this thinking what a fun why to drive someting neat that wont cost alot of money but it doesnt seem like thats the case as I dig deeper.

Thanks,

Steve E.

Of course real 356's vary from a couple of thousand (for almost junked cars) to upwards of $275,000.00 for a nice four cam Carrera Speedster. Used replicas usually tend to be in the range of 10K to 20K. Price depends on the type of car; VW pan based (in other words, the fiberglass body mounted on a modified VW Beetle chassis) such as Vintage Speedsters, JPS, CMC's, Fiberfab and old Intermeccanicas tend to be less expensive than tubular chassis models such as newer Intermeccanica, Thunder Ranch, SAW and Beck. Hope this helps.

Steve, I don't want to sound too biased but you're a prime candidate for a Vintage Speedster. I ordered one last year and love it but our tropical weather here can be a bit unpredictable. This year has been a record breaker in rainfall; if it were sunny all the time I'd use my VS a lot more. For the time being it stays inside under a car cover most of the time. I tell my wife that we should move to a dry place like where you live or Arizona (for example) so that I can use my VS more; they're very fun cars. With respect to maintenance, they're basically VW Bugs so they're easy to service and the parts are easily found, especially in Ca. For reference there's a couple of books that guide you through the servicing of the car's systems, which are pretty straightforward and user friendly. Test drive one and you'll be hooked, I guarantee it......

Steve, your right it gets expensive to go water cooled, especially if a smaller VW engine would be ok with you. Now if you start to get too big then I wouldn't agree. The worst part of any new car is the wait. And I also agree with Ricardo, you are in a great spot if you do decide to go VW based. If you do, I would look for a used one, there are several on the market that are very nice and have already been through the break in period.

I have identified one that I will go look at. its a Vintage Speedster VW conversion. The asking price is in the low 20's It has alot of upgrades like a bigger motor and stuff. Just started to get concerned about the vw conversion versus a tubular build as well as water cooled versus air cooled.

Thank you to everyone for the support. I really like the look of the car I just hope the ride and feel are matched up.

Anything anyone else can help me with in info, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Steve E.

Steve,
All Vintage Speedsters as well as JPS have a tubular frame over the vw pan. Registration in CA is much easier with the VW pan. VS build 200+ cars per year and I have never heard of a problem with the frame they use.
-=theron

Hi Steve,
I would suggest that if you are really interested in buying the VS you mentioned, that you ask for a second opinion from one of the members on this site who lives in your area. I'm sure someone would be more than helpful in this situation. This happens quite frequently and more times than not someone will step forward and help you evaluate the VS of interest. When you said low twenties for a used VS a flag went up in many of our minds. Just ask for help with the vehicle, someone will step up to the plate, I'm sure. I'm not saying that low twenties is too much for a VS, but the options would have to be worth the money. If you look at other discussions on the site you'll see that very good deals are going on for VSs for $10-15K. It's a buyers market right now, except in Alaska.

Pat

Hello Steve and welcome, I too am looking for a daily driver and live in the LA area (Whittier) I have been to VS and Kirk (Owner) has been very open with me about models and price and stuff, even test driven a couple of his cars.. AWESOME, they ride just as good as they look! I have been researching on this site too. 20k for a VS seems a little high like others have mentioned unless all the goodies add up! I have been talking to folks about the 1600 vs bigger engines as well, and all have told me that if you decide to go bigger you better be willing to wrench on it more as well! I beleive in the old KISS theroy! Keep It Simple Silly! Right now there is a sweet VS in No Cali for 15K Cream on tan intr. it's your basic VS.. If you're like me listen to these guys here and ask them a ton of questions.. they have ALL stepped up and given me fair insight to a major investment!

Happy hunting..

P.S. When you get one let me know we can hook up somewhere and meet!


Dave

Steve, as a couple of the guys have said, low twenties for a used VS seems a little steep unless it's fully loaded. Heck, I bought mine new from VS last year for $20,400.00 and it's not the base model; it's got a 1776 cc engine (base is 1600 cc), trunk carpet (an option), dual side mirrors (an option), front disc brakes (base are front drum brakes), 3.88 tranny (base is 4.12), dual carbs (base is a single stock Solex) and bumper guards (an option). Prices might have changed a little bit from last year but onless it has a specially built engine from a big name builder, A/C, leather interior, German squareweave carpet and on and on, the price seems a little steep. Check the website and talk to the owner, Kirk Duncan. Good luck.

Thanks for all the info everyone. You guys are great!!!

I went and looked at the VS and it looked very good. It was very clean and had only 1500 miles on it. It had the larger motor(1915cc) with dual carbs. It had disk braks in front and was done very well.

I drove the car and it sounded fantastic. The motor was a little cold so it ran abit rough. Is this normal in a VW? The brakes felt abit weak but I am use to modern brakes versus old style brakes of course. Steering was tuff but thats normal for that car.

He did an upgrade to the stereo and added a subwoffer between the seats which was done very nicely.

Anyhow, the car was in great shape and I was in love. The only draw back was that its not the color I would go with if I had a choice but still very nice.

The only thing I would change is the seats as they are not very comfortable for me. Can you put in seats that have a backrest adjustment in these cars?

The gentelman I spoke with was very nice and told me everything about the car he could. He is asking $21,000 but I want to make an offer of $14,000 but dont want to insult him.

If you were selling your car and listed it for $21,000 and I offered $14,000, would I upset you?

Thanks for the help everyone.

David, when I buy one, we will definatly setup a meeting place so we can compare and hangout and draw a crowd. :)

Thanks,

Steve E.

I for one would not be offended. But I usually ask about what I want for a car, so I may start laughing at you. What year is it? You have to understand that an only slightly used speedster doesn't usually depreciate very much. Your getting some hidden value from it being gone through and ready, and the fact that you don't have to wait. The 1915 is a very popular engine size. It isn't considered small and it isn't in the "so large it may be a pain" size either. Any idea who built the engine? Does it have an aux oil cooler? It will idle rough and need a little coaxing in the beginning because it most likely doesn't have a choke. Almost none of them do. It should smooth out in 5-15 minutes. It may just need the carbs synchronized if its warmed up and still idleing rough. You can learn how to sync the carbs in about 5 minutes. And don't let the valve adjustment scare you, in your area someone can show you and it will be a piece of cake. You should try to get someone in your area to look the car over for you and see what they think?

Color does effect resale, thats why people who buy cars just to sell them have nicknames like "resell red". My used IM wasn't the color I would pick if I were building one, but I really liked it after having it.

The owner said he bought it last year as a turnkey from Vintage Speedster(VS) and paid for the upgrades like the motor, brakes and paint. The donor was a 1964 chassis.

I went through the car and its very clean. I have been around many cars and I can tell that this is quality. I am not concerned about that car one bit. I mean if it needs work, its not going to be to much money based on the powertrain. Thats the benefit of these cars right?

What I dont want to do is pay more then its worth. I want to make sure that if I have to sell it, I can get some of my money back. I will probably never sell it but you never know what happens in life.

Thanks for putting up with all my questions.

Thanks,

Steve E.

14K sounds a little low to me for this car, but then I have not seen it. I would think that a car like the one you described would be valued in the 15K to 19K range, the higher number if it is just about a perfect specimen. Perhaps you can use the color as a bargaining chip?

Thats a good thought John. I will try that as I prepare my offer speech. I will wait for more feedback to get a feel for where in that range i should offer. I dont know the market and you guys do being that you allready put the money out to buy one.

Thanks,

Steve E.

14k isn't just a little low, it's very low. It's been said before, but used speedsters don't depreciate very much. A 25+ year old CMC would be in the 10-14k range, not a newer Vintage. I would say 15-20k, closer to 20 if it has the upgrades.
-=theron

Thanks for bringing me back to reality theron. I am starting to get a feel for where I should be. Sounds like in the 15 to 20 range as you stated and closer to 20.

Thanks,

Steve E .

Steve, If I was asking 21K for a car and you offered me 14K,
I would tell you to pound sand and come back when you are serious...
21 may be a stretch but offering 18K would at least show you are serious....Don't come off like some flake and insult the guy...

Steve, check the classifieds here for a more realistic idea. Also check Ebay prices too. As everyone else has said 14K is too low for a recently built specimen but at VS a 1915 cc engine upgrade costs the same as a 1776 cc engine upgrade. As I said, when getting close to the 20K range it's better to just order a new one; in most cases it only takes about 4 weeks plus delivery time to your destination.

Steve, look in my files, I have a 99 VS with 5K on the motor, and about 7K total on the rest of the car, If I was to sell mine (which I'm not) I don't think 14-15K would be out of line...The one you mention is much newer with alot less miles....Do you think 18K is a stretch..Probably not....

Thanks for the info vince. Your car rocks!!!

Thanks,

Steve E .

I'd have to agree with Vince on the subject of offering too little. I was selling a beautiful vw golf with somthing like 44k miles, asking 8k for it. It was basically a brand new car with about 5k in extras in it. Some yo-yo came & offered me 5k for it & I basically told him to take a hike.

Hello everyone,

This is a first post for me, I'm looking for a 356 as well down here in San Diego and am appreciating all of the input on this board, you guys are great.

If the speedster you are talking about is in LA with tan exterior and powder blue leather seats it is one I put a bid on ebay for last week.

Bidding went up to $17950, I was well out bid with my $14100. I'll bet 19k will do it.
best
james

Welcome James and good hunting. This is a great hobby
Hoss

Let me put it another way, with the year and options you are kind of saying it has I wouldn't take less then 20k, but you never know what his situation is, and that will obviously have something to do with it. I could sit on the car and wait for a buyer who understands and appreciates what it is worth. In the end it is worth what someone will pay for it of course, but that car in excellent condition, which it should be, will go in that range.

What color is it for crying out loud, is is some weird awful color or is it one of the normal colors?

The 1915 is a 3-5k engine depending on how it was built, but I seriously don't think it needs a new engine it probably needs snyced. Have someone look at it!!!!!!

Its a normal color. Its not bad its silver and nicely done. I just would rather have white or red.

I feel like such a a-$#%# for trying to low ball the dude but its alot of money to spend on a toy so I am trying to limit the spend as well as the risk.

I have thought about this for 3 days and I am probably gonna try submitting an offer next week. I will post how it goes.

Thanks,

Steve E.

Steve,
If 14K is what you have, then find one that fits your budget...
They all look basically the same, give or take a tweek...
some of these guys have more money than brains....these are toys,
don't go into hock for a frigging toy car....
i bought mine used, because thats what I could afford, and I wanted a black one, but as it turns out, If i did it again, Ivory is what i would choose....I love mine....

Steve:
The $$$$ is relative to the pleasure the toy gives you. We have guys who buck up $50 - $60,000 for replicas.
I just happen to know one who just spent north of $28,000 for a water cooled Speedster. He being me is very happy with is purchase.
The guys posting here know the cars and give good advice as you have seen. I would suggest you pick a budget number after you have explored options/alternatives engine sizes etc etc. talk to dealers/manufacturers and note that a few of the members have cars for sale that you can get a history on. I thihk JOhn Legate may be selling his?
Good Luck and Welcome!

Silver is actually a very popular color, no resell issues at all with that color.

Steve. Your comment about the car running a little rough (due to needing a warm up) sends up a red flag to me. The owner could have spent a few minutes warming it up for you. In the summer, a well tuned engine should run without hesitation after a reasonable warm-up. If you drive it again INSIST on it being warmed up, then drive it for some time in traffic and at speed to make sure it runs good at all speeds and runs cool.

I would not dream of buying that, or any other used VS/JPS Speedster Replica at the price he is asking (22), unless it ran perfectly, had no mechanical issues, and the paint was 99% (meaning maybe a few stone chips up front) The interior should be flawless. And Brakes? You said the brakes felt weak? The brakes should be at a minimum discs up front and should be confidence inspiring. Red Flag!

Many of us have been "around cars" most of our lives, like you. But, a VW based Speedster Replica is a whole new ballgame unless you have some recent High-Performance Air-Cooled VW time under your belt. If you buy a less than satisfactory Speedster Replica at 18-21G and it's not 100%, you may be in for some rude surprises. Based on your comments it could have burned valves (or worse), cooling problems, Carb issues, brake issues, etc. On the low end the repairs might be $100 DIY stuff, or it might require some major repairs up to 1 or $2,000, maybe even more.

Get a local High Performance VW shop to check it out for you. There are members near you (look in the registry). Write them a PM and ask for advice on shops, what to watch for, etc. The car may need a little TLC, or it may be a dud. Have an expert find out for you.

There are plenty of good VS's on the market for 15-20G. Do not get in a hurry. Bottom line? With the money you are willing to spend, insist on the best and do not even dream of buying a car that has some issues up front.

Agree with Jim 100%. It's imperative you get the car warmed up before taking off; it's bound to run a little roughly if it's not.

Told ya! Guys like Jim Ward Know what they are talking about!

So whats the story on Classic Motor Carriages? I see that they are out of business on this website but did they build a good car?

Take a look at this ebay post:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4572243061

This car is more in my price range but also seems to need some work as well.

Thanks,

Steve E.

There is no such thing as a CMC Factory Built car as the listing says. CMC didn't build cars, they sold kits via a telemarketing scheme. All CMC cars were independantly built. That's not a bad thing, some home builders were very skilled and produced very nice cars, others however did not. You would have to see the car in person to find out the build quality.
-=theron