Wheel Stud ... stripped what to do

I used to use MORE 3.0 and it was so powerful an outliner document maker but then it went the way of the dodo bird.  I use OmniOutliner a bit but only the basic one as I seldom write anything lately, except letters and then I mostly use Daylite a CRM that I have used for 20 years after CAT, when away as well on the Mac.  It sucks in the emails into itself so you can keep track of every email, letter etc.  Great program but now they want a subscription yearly and I don't want to buy it so I bought a new mac and I froze the OS to High Sierra for the next 5 years.  

Subscription services may be there only moneterizing way to live but if your not in business any longer the cost adds up for little use. 

On an IRS car, the rotor is a completely separate part from the bearings, so you won’t need to touch them to do the work.

As far as a service interval, Henry always pulled the cheap EMPI Chinese bearings and races, and put in higher-quality parts (at least he did in 2005). If that is the case, they should be good for a long, long time yet. 

You won’t needs mechanic for this. It’s an easy job. 

Well my parts arrived one day early, got to love FED Ex ... Anyway I went out to look at how I was going to do this and I just realized I have no flex hoses going to the calipers. It is all solid lines all the way.  I guess I will have to be careful is it worth while have a piece of flex line put in?

Yes probably available through NAPA too

If you look at the line, the brake line goes to the hinge point then there is only a small piece of flex for the suspension point then solid line from there to the caliper.  I would have to somehow put another junction or maybe change the whole solid portion to a braided steel flex line.  Any ideas?  Is there a difference performance with flex compared to solid lines?

A solid brake line is always better than flex. You have flexible line where you need it. Leave it as it is.

My fellow OCD sufferer-- suppress the urge to reinvent the wheel. Just change the rotor and be done with it.

Lol, thanks Stan I needed that !  

So mote it be...

Totally agree with Stan.  I've got those same el Shorty flex lines on Pearl and that's all you'll need.  It is IRS, after all, not Swing Arm, and the hard lines will give you a better pedal.

Actually, swing axle has a short line by the torsion bar and is solid the rest of the way, just like IRS. But, on a swing, the flex is from the frame horn to the axle. Not sure what you mean, Gordon.

FWIW, I have braided SS/Teflon front and rear. On my 4 wheel disc I use stock length flex lines in the front, but longer ones in the rear from the firewall al the way to the caliper. My pedal is solid as heck. Yes, even with repeated heavy application, as in actual track time. No fade in 30 minute sessions.

This is all you need to handle suspension movement.  I have a Toyota 4 Runner that uses same short flex hose.

Thanks guys.

BTW:  John Estes' IM has rear disks, as I believe you have, and has the exact same set-up as you - little flex hoses at the frame end of the diagonal arms and then hard lines out to the calipers.

Thanks for the info Gordon I managed to borrow a few tools from a P mechanic and I am going for it today 

Seen it done many time but Believe it or not I’ve never done this before just learning after all these years 

It's no big deal.  Really.

Take your time and you'll be all set.  I'll PM my cell # to use in a panic.

gn

IaM-Ray posted:

Thanks for the info Gordon I managed to borrow a few tools from a P mechanic and I am going for it today 

Seen it done many time but Believe it or not I’ve never done this before just learning after all these years 

Down the rabbit hole he goes... 

Airkewld.com has flex hoses to go all the way setup for specific calipers.  That is what I am using and have a firm pedal.

Bob, you are not wrong on that one... here are the first casualties of my endeavours. 

a 2 foot 1/2 inch bar broken socket end and a 1/2 inch powerbar also broken, a 1/2 inch air gun 650ft/lb is not working either but maybe my longish air hose is not helping it either. 

I guess I need a 3/4 inch socket and powerbar... or...?

So wise ones any more comments.

Does anyone suggest HEAT?  

Ray:  Will you end up spending as much on tools as what you would pay a shop to do the work? 

Mind you, you will have the tools when you are done, if the new ones don't break also.

Propane torches won't have enough poop to heat up that nut and stud.  

If you have a MAPP gas torch or, for sure, an Oxy-Acetylene torch with a wide-ish welding tip or small blowtorch tip, you could certainly heat it up to get it to loosen, but since you've already proven that it's really on there, then there are two tool options: Upgrading to a good-quality 3/4" drive bat handle with a 5' - 6' piece of pipe on it and your enhanced 205 pounds.  If your weight on the far end of the pipe (don't bounce it) doesn't get it to loosen up, then heat the snot out of the nut and try again.  It will be a good idea to get a bat handle with a lifetime warranty, like Kobalt, Craftsman or Husky.  At least if you break it they'll give you a new one.

The other alternative is to drive it on the four studs (it should be fine) to a garage where they have a 600 ft. lb. impact drive and a bodacious air supply (120-160 cu. ft. or more) and get them to remove it, then re-install at 200 ft. lbs so you can get it off when you get home to do the hub swap. 

Just goes to show that not all jobs are easy.

Well the good news is my mechanic was a champion and lent me his tools something I know he does not do

These are 3/4 inch socket and breaker bar plus a any spin bar plus a 5 foot extension

with 250lbs of weigh,  it turned,  not easily and I had to keep going till the last 1/2 inch that way

Look at the tools below 

That one tool clealy says TAIWAN - that's Asian for "break me".  It needs to says CRAFTSMAN on it so should it break - they will replace it.

I actually use one that says EMPI aka TAIWAN with some success - about $12-15.  You can use a big hammer to coax it and then a breaker bar.

EMPI 5748 AXLE NUT TOOL 36MM

I was always told to wear proper shoes when wrenching, but flips flops work great in sunny s. cal. But when the breaker bar comes out, I reconsider my not wearing gloves and flips.

At least your cuticles look proper!

you like these...

So… I was sort of sitting on my hands when everybody was talking about the torque required to achieve 250 lb/ft. The one you just removed was tightened WAY more than 250 lb/ft— as it should be.

The reality of those spindles and nuts is “tighter is better”. I’ve never seen one strip or snap. I’m sure other guys have, but I’ve personally never seen it, and I am world-famous for snapping off bolts and studs. Having that nut come loose is far, far worse than having one be too tight. There is an enormous load on that joint, and your rotor’s internal splines depend on it being “spot torqued” (torque it until you see spots).

When you put it back together, 450 lb/ft (at least).

Gordon Nichols posted:

Propane torches won't have enough poop to heat up that nut and stud.  

If you have a MAPP gas torch or, for sure, an Oxy-Acetylene torch with a wide-ish welding tip or small blowtorch tip, you could certainly heat it up to get it to loosen, but since you've already proven that it's really on there, then there are two tool options: Upgrading to a good-quality 3/4" drive bat handle with a 5' - 6' piece of pipe on it and your enhanced 205 pounds.  If your weight on the far end of the pipe (don't bounce it) doesn't get it to loosen up, then heat the snot out of the nut and try again.  It will be a good idea to get a bat handle with a lifetime warranty, like Kobalt, Craftsman or Husky.  At least if you break it they'll give you a new one.

The other alternative is to drive it on the four studs (it should be fine) to a garage where they have a 600 ft. lb. impact drive and a bodacious air supply (120-160 cu. ft. or more) and get them to remove it, then re-install at 200 ft. lbs so you can get it off when you get home to do the hub swap. 

Just goes to show that not all jobs are easy.

I had trouble getting the big nut off my Speedster axle after an "expert" helped me by  re-torquing it among performing other little adjustments while waiting for new tires to arrive in Bunnel, Fl. years ago. I cringed when he hit that nut with mucho power from his air gun. No torque wrench needed if you know what you're doing he said. 

I estimated it took me 800 ft.lbs to get that f' ucking nut off and to no surprise when I did, I discovered that he had ruined the threads on the axle as well as the nut. A new axle and nut was the only cure then. 

Wow David that is a bummer.

Stan, I called IM and they said they torque up to 250 only but then when I took it off it was full of Loctite Red on all the threads and I am sure it was at least up to 400ft/lbs. 

Well thanks to the help from the noble members of this list I am nearly done with getting this drum/disk replaced. 

Well I have the 14mm studs loctited in there with RED jelly the new stuff that is easy to apply then I have the caliper back on with no kinks whatsoever in the line!

The Castle nut is on it's way to being on there, I had to stop for dinner,  and I will TORQUE it to at least 250 if not more. 

BTW, I used a stack of wood pieces to hold the caliper when I took it off and the caliper was well supported.  I also measured the disk for thickness old vs new and after 25k km, there was no wear on it hardly so I had no issue with the piston and the pads sliding back on there. 

Go figure, that is how much rear braking happens on these cars even with a Wildwood  valve being used.  I know most of my driving is on the highway, so we can conclude that the front is where all the action is for sure. 

"So… I was sort of sitting on my hands when everybody was talking about the torque required to achieve 250 lb/ft. The one you just removed was tightened WAY more than 250 lb/ft— as it should be."

Now that you have confirmed that your part of the Ourangatang family I think your right and I should make it 400 or so as the 356 is torqued to that setting.  I wonder if I should also loctite it like they did since I have an IM special rather than a safety pin in there. 

2 places I can think of on these cars where you absolutely need 3/4" drive- the flywheel gland nut and rear axle nuts. I bought the breaker bar and 36mm socket not very far into my VW wrenching time- I've probably owned them for 43? 45? years now, and wouldn't think of using anything else for those 2 jobs. Your broken bars are a good example of why they're needed.

Because of the extra power (engine as well as increased forces from better handling due to lowering the ride height, thicker sway bars, firmer shocks and wider wheels and tires) we put to these things I agree that it's not a bad idea to up the torque slightly from the 217 ft. lbs. quoted in the factory manuals. I don't think the sky is the limit, though, as David found out (I don't think very much will stand up to over 3 1/2 times  what's spec'd- that nothing broke is a testament to the factory material's quality), and I even wonder about the long term effects of Stan's 450 ft. lb. figure (over twice the stock number, although I'm sure he will report quite factually of no ill effects over the many thousands of miles he has logged). With the way VW's were so over-engineered to begin with, maybe 275-300-ish ft. lbs. (or a touch more to line up the cotter pin holes) would be the ticket? Then it wouldn't take 2 gorillas and all the foul language that goes with it to get them off when it's maintenance time again? 

Al, how old were you when you started VW wrenching?  I am impressed by how long you have owned a 36mm socket.

Again, with the Torque Meister you don't need the 3/4" drive stuff.

IaM-Ray posted:

... Now that you have confirmed that your part of the Ourangatang family...

This fact was established some time ago, and I’m at relative peace with it. I married up, to be sure.

I am the “missing link.”

Obviously, red loctite was used on Ray's car to enhance the "special" lock?

Personally, I would replace the nut and stub axle. That arrangement was hokey to say the least . Could even go with "Cob Job".

@Stan Galat I have a story for you. One time I caught my friend Ed putting an oil filter on, with an oil filter wrench. From that day on, he was known as Eddie Overtighten.

Maybe we should call you Stanley Strongarm?

Right turn, Clyde.

And, with a “Torque Meister”, it also makes it easier to over-torque whatever you are tightening, if you’re not careful.   Jus’ sayin’....

Good sockets last and last.  I bought my first 36mm X 1/2” drive, a Craftsman silver - regular duty, in 1967 because my older brother moved out and took his Porsche-related tools with him.  Then, I broke it that winter while removing a gland nut (that sounds a bit weird, doesn’t it?), got a new one free from Sears and, at the same time, I also bought a 36mm X 3/4” drive Impact socket.  I still have both of them, regular one in my mobile tool box, the impact one in the shop chest.

On an IRS rear, I usually shoot for 275 - 290 ft. Lbs., which is my weight somewhere around 20” from the socket center which, for me, is around 280 ft. Lbs, depending on cranking it a bit tighter to make the nut line up with the cotter pin holes.  Easy-Peasy and has worked fine for me.  

Oh......And delete the locktite when you re-assemble.  You have a nut lock in that little wire and retainer.  Put that on properly and that nut ain’t going nowhere.  NAPA and others carry locktite remover, if you want to get rid of the residue.  Why they used locktite red (especially) in the first place is beyond me.  That stuff really holds, doesn’t it?  Come to think of it, if you have some acetone in the shop, try seeing if that will soften the locktite to remove it.  Might not be quite as effective, but might also do the trick after a while.

And BTW, I bet that nut was NOT over-tightened when it was earlier installed.  If it had Locktite RED on it then the locktite was intended to be PERMANENT and resisted being turned because it was glued in place!  That is why it came off so hard AND resisted up til the last 1/2” or so (because the locktite was applied farther down the threads).  

It seems like if you use a torque wrench with the Torque Meister you wouldn't over tighten.  The main advantage over standing on a piece of pipe is that you can more accurately get the torque you want.

And that nut retainer is quite effective, but it was kind of improperly installed - They're supposed to have only one lock wire, but with the Locktite Red on the stub shaft the nut was never gonna move no matter what, anyway.  O

To assemble, one end of the lock wire gets pushed through the retainer from the top and then bent to the side on the back side just enough to keep it from pulling out.  The wire is then pulled over the end of the stub and into the slot of the stub and the nut (after lining the nut up with one of the slots).  The remaining end of the wire is pushed through the remaining hole in the retainer, pulled as tight as possible and then bent over on the far side of the retainer so it can't pull out, and then cut off the excess to make it look neat.  That's it.  Just as effective as a cotter pin and may not stick out as much to the sides to clear your wheels.  As I said earlier, New Holland hay balers (and maybe Massey Ferguson) used them on the bale-compressing mechanism and they worked fine under high vibration.  We're talking 1950's - 1960's here.

And Mike, I totally agree with you about using the torque wrench with a Torque Meister to accurately tighten to the proper torque setting, but I have seen a LOT of people use them without benefit of a torque wrench (because it takes too much time to get it out and adjusted, or some bogus excuse like that) and that's when bad things happen.  One of the "Original" guys from the Boston area cranked up a hub nut so tight I had to cut most of the way through it with a Dremel and then split the nut with a cold chisel to pop it apart and still save the axle threads.  He had put it on with a Torque Meister without using a torque wrench and couldn't get it off, even with his torque meister.  No, no locktite was used.  Lots of people like them and that's fine.  I prefer not to use one.

@Michael McKelvey- A '66 VW was my first car- I was a senior in high school (17 years old?) and I'm sure that within 1 1/2 or 2 years I'd done my first brake job (and needed the 3/4" drive bar and socket). And as a kid- 150-160 lbs, 18" away from the socket, a little extra bounce to line up the cotter pin holes and voila! (note, you 'Muricans, how that lovely French word is spelled- Gene Berg didn't particularly care for being told 'whala' wasn't actually a word!) with thousands of miles on bugs with more hp, bracket racing, slaloming and then a Baja Bug with 28 or 29" tires I've never had a drum come loose.

          AND ALWAYS INSTALL THE COTTER PIN!!!

DannyP posted:

Maybe we should call you Stanley Strongarm?

I've been called worse. The boys at Blackline call me, "Chevy hands", and I kinda' liked it.

You can take the boy off the farm, but I suppose you can't take the farm out of the boy. I'm pretty useless in situations calling for a light touch, and yet somehow I raised two beautiful girls to be fine young women. Must have been their mother putting the fear of reprisal in me.

Lets see, 17 + 2 + 45 = 64.