where did georgeb stash his ....

Hi George, i'm sure you mentioned this already but i was wondering
where your gas heater was finally mounted? i bought one also, i don't
know if i'll use it but i like to fiddle.

Hey George,

I was looking at your latest pics today. Lookin' good.

I have to ask about the fire extinguisher. Is that really where you wanted to mount it. It really looks out of place right there on the center hump. Do you really need one that big. There has got to be a better and /or more hidden place for it. I just think it really distracts your eye from the rest of the nice interior work.

Just my $.02 and you can keep the change,

Jerome

I've always felt there are three things in a car that cannot be too big. Brakes, brake lights and fire extinguishers. The latter is kinda like a roll bar - totally usless until you need it. I wouldn't want either one to crap out on me in the middle of a "job".

I'm not saying get rid of it, I'm just saying there has got to be a better location for it.

Jerome

Until George gets here to give you the exact details, I can fill you in on what I know. George's gas heater is under the dash, on the far right. If the car had a glove box, it would be behind the glove box door. The intake and exhaust vent out behind the right front wheel. Lots of insulation required as the exhaust gets quite hot. Also, I believe Henry put a muffler of some kind on it to quieten it down some. You can't see it from in the car, but you can kind of see the intake/exhaust behind the right front wheel, if you know to look. It's a nice setup, but I'm not sure how retrofittable it would be. If you get it to work Bruce, I would be interested to know what mods you had to make as I would like to put one in as well.
Ron

It is rather a large extinguisher, but it is close to hand, and that's important. If I had that much money tied up in a car, I might put it in the same location. Also, too small an extinguisher is useless - I think this is a decent size for what it needs to do.

No car should be on the road without an extinguisher, in fact
it should be a part of the car when new, and designed into it...
AND this is another case where size does matter.......Butt...
That engine compartment of George's is about the same size as mine
give or take a RCH....and I run one about half that size, so either
mine is grossly inadaquate or George is going to add a ladder
to the side of his speedster and play fire boy in the future.......
Actually I'm the last to criticize...These cars are a reflection
of their owners and George obviously has a hang-up with size....
Only kidding George....The car looks great.....

Let me add to this ....Everone needs to have an extinguisher on board, not sure if a red torpedo as George has is a required size but ...size does count ! Last Spring, I was cruising a rural road, accelerated and a carb hic-cups and pops... In the rearview mirror I am treated to a fire show..POOOOFFFF here comes flames 16" straight out of the engine grill! I get the speedster from 65mph to zero and onto the shoulder of the road in record time ........As I jump outI realize I am helpless... no extinguisher! The frustration level of moment is amazingly interesting! With the help from above (and I mean way above!) not 15 seconds after the fire erupts, here comes a state highway dept road crew truck screeching to a hault... two guys pile out of the rig with the best looking fire extinguishers I have ever seen! They do their good deed and ride off into the sunset like The Lone Ranger and Tonto.

WOW, great story....I was driving a 57 VW (oval window)
about 25 years ago...(seems like yesterday)
on the 405 freeway going to pick up my paycheck, when the
insulation on the firewall caught fire, Had a buddy with me,
our eyes started to burn, and when I looked out the rearview
mirror, I saw Flames...Next exit was mine anyway, drove off
the freeway, caught the green light, drove about another 1/4 mile
and pulled up in front of my Job Shop, with the flames still
coming out. Some guy heading in the opposite direction, pulls
over, jumps out of his car with an extinguisher and puts out
the fire...We laugh a little, I go get my check, get back to
the car, which is still smoking, Remove the last of the insulation,
which is smoldering, we look at each other, get back in the car,
it starts, and we get back on the freeway......End of story...
The incident reinforced my reputation as being crazy among my
fellow Job Shoppers......
Good thing that guy stopped, I had no extinguisher......
I now put one in every car I own....
George could put out a few fires, be the hero, and still have plenty
for himself....lets hope that day never comes.........

Sorry, I didn't mean anything negative. I'd just rather have maybe an overkill extinguisher. That way I feel I'd have a better chance of extinguishing it before it burned down to inorganics. Realistically, It may not help, but I feel better...at least until the day comes.

All this talk about fires has convinced me to purchase one. LOL!

Jerome

I could be mistaken, but if memory serves me well I think george has a CO2 exting., and they only come in that size or bigger. Other exting. in other compounds come in smaller sizes. I think if I had one that big, I'd mount it behind the driver's seat. On second thought, if I had George's car I'd have a built in system with nozzels in the engine compartment over each carb, and maybe under the dash and in the trunk by the gas tank. Eddie

having a great time driving my fiat x 1/9 [really], when i looked
in my rear view mirror at my mobile Bar- B-Q, luckily i was
able to swat it out with my coat [no extinguisher]. they are
pretty handy to have around.

Ron, I'll update you. I just bought this heater and have not
received it yet. I think my first mistake was/is there are a
couple of different size ones and mine is a little larger.

oops---mine is a little larger than most, i'll check for fit/space
and get back to you-bruce

Back on fire extinguishers and in defense of George for a moment (George! Where are ya, guy??), All of us are riding around in a very flammable egg-shell, not to mention the flammable interior materials (like the carpets or vinyl seats).

I saw the picture before reading a lot of the comments and I thought: "Geez! a little big, maybe, but in a PERFECT spot!" Think about it: He knows exactly where it is, he doesn't have to reach for it, NOR does he have to get out of the car to get to it (as he would have to if it were mounted, say, on the roll bar upright or on a rear bulkhead).

Stopping, getting out of the car, reaching for and releasing a rear-mounted (or, God forbid, an inside-trunk mounted) extinguisher might easily take 15 - 30 SECONDS. In that time an engine fire might well erupt into a full-blown body fire, but it might never get that far if your extinguisher was mounted where George's is, and having a BIGGER one means that you'll have extra reserve in case that gas fire you thought you put out is fed by a little more gas and erupts again - not bad preventive planning, eh?

Now, maybe I'm a little more vain than George - I would probably mount it between the seats and behind the e-brake lever IF it were small enough to fit that space and IF I didn't hit my elbow on it EVER! But that's just me. BTW: The US Coast Guard recommends that a power boat's fire extinguisher be within reach of the pilot when in their "normal operating position" - just food for thought.

If I had the GNP of the "Grand Dutchey of Fenwick" tied up in my car, then the price of a REALLY GOOD fire extinguisher, mounted where I can quickly get at it, seems well spent, eh?

Gee that reminds me, maybe George can name his car: "The Mouse that Roared" (!!!!)

Gordon

Maybe it's a nitrous oxide bottle in disguise :>) Wouldn't want to use it on a fire!

WWGD; "What Would George Do?"

I think it was George who inspired me to mount an extinguisher in the same spot, in a previous post he or someone mentioned that 50's and 60's racers typically had theirs mounted there. Made sense to me because its sort of useless open space otherwise, plus I liked having that early racer vibe. I made an aluminum mounting bracket that holds mine tilted up about 30 degrees, it can be yanked out in a hurry. Not in the way of anything but very accessible.

Hey Medicine Man...
Do you still have that picture from the San Leandro Kit Car show where someone came up with a roll bar/fire sprinkler system? (The sprinklers were not installed on the prototype as I recall). I thought for sure GB would have gone with that system instead of the J-Lo of all extinguishers (O:

Hey GB, where are you? Can you get me a deal on a BB gun? (O:~R

Heavy gloves are a good idea. I have wood stoves in my house, and know what hot metal can do to fingers and hands. I'd hate to think of burning fibreglass.

Perhaps we need to list other safety items we should carry?

Why it's there: it's quickly and easily accessible, the weight is low, and it looks "period correct". I chose CO2 over a Halon unit because it's vintage and I'm familiar with using that type of unit. A smaller CO2 unit is available but I'd rather have overkill than underkill if I have to use it.

If you're going to put a fire extinguisher in your car (a good idea), include a pair of heavy work gloves - you may have to open someting hot or burning before the extinguisher goes into action.

The ESPAR gas heater is mounted behind the dash on the passenger side; a removeable panel in the trunk allows service access for the glow plug, etc. The muffler is a stainless steel ESPAR unit normally used with ESPAR's diesel heaters mounted in boats or semi trucks.

Another note on CO2 vs. Halon.

If you live in Canada, many metro areas of the USA and a host of other countries you probably cannot purchase a Halon extinguisher as they are deemed an environmental hazard (Halon is a Chloro Flouro Carbon, or CFC).

I was working in a raised-floor computer room once that had halon foggers below the floor (Halon is very common in computer centers). One of the construction workers inadvertantly set off the extinguisher system, instantly causing (1.) the room to power down (that's scarey in itself), (2.) the emergency lights to come on and (3.) the room to instantly fill (and I mean FILL) with Halon.

Couldn't easily see with the subdued lighting, and really couldn't breathe with the fog. Took a couple of days to get the halon taste out of our mouths (and they say it's tasteless - BS!)

If I'm going to use something around my car, I'll stick with good old CO2!

Oh! and a good pair of heavy leather gloves. If we come up with other safety items, I'll add them to my spares list and put it in the "Knowlege" section.

Gordon

Gordon,
When I worked for a bank in upstate New York, part of my portfolio was physical installation planning. Our main computer systems, four independant G.E. 210 data processors (1st generation, no less) were build over a five foot tall plenum which contained our CO2 fire supression system. There were a few false alerts where the claxons would go off sending computer operators scurrying out the doors (you don't want to dilly dally when a room is being flooded with CO2 gas). In an attempt to upgrade, we looked at a halon fire suppression system marketed by the Walter Kidde (pronounced kid-da) company. The proposed system was going to cost over 50K (mid 1970's dollars), due to the volume of gas which was going to be required. We didn't buy it, but I was curious to know if halon is still very expensive. Price excepted, are there any other downsides to using it over CO2? It sounded like great stuff, based upon the presentation I heard.
John H

John: G.E. 210's, huh? Geez, and I thought I was old!!

Bear in mind that I am NOT a fire engineer.......I was an Engineering and project manager for a large Storage company.

Halon has been around since the early 1900's and is probably the best all-around fire suppressant for "high tech" (read that: computer room) applications. I don't have a clue about the cost, but we installed it at my old company mostly because it could handle very large areas (50K - 150K+ square feet) easily and VERY QUICKLY blanket the entire area to snuff out any fire (and any people, too, I suppose) in mere seconds. Given the amount of older, PVC wiring jackets under older data center floors with its' inherent flammability and out-gassing of chlorine, ultra-fast fire snuffing is a good thing. BTW: we had several data centers over 150K sq. ft. and were running around 1000 servers (up to sys. 390's) and close to a peta-byte of storage - per center!

HOWEVER! (and this is a BIG however) Halon is a close cousin to Freon, is a standard chloro flouro carbon, and depending on who you listen to, it eats holes in the Ozone layer. Would you want to breathe that stuff??

The last project I did (2001) was to build a 10K sq. ft. data center in the Mitsui building in downtown Tokyo, Japan, and we were not allowed to use Halon foggers, only CO2. I found that it takes about 30% more CO2 to do about the same job, but it's environmentally friendly.

BTW: The industry went to lower and lower raised floors (plenums) over the years and is now going back to 3 - 4 ft. plenums. I went to a data center in a very famous govt. building in Washington, DC. once, pulled a floor tile to do some work and the VERY dense wiring was about a foot below the floor. "What is this, an 18" raised floor?" I asked. "Hell, no!" came the reply, "Same as the rest of the building - 8 feet!" Honest-to-God, they had over 6 feet deep of cabling under the floor. Seems that whenever they changed or moved equipment, rather than pull the old cables out they just cut off the connectors and pulled new ones through, and ALL of the old stuff was PVC jacketed.

Gives you the willies just thinking about a fire in there!

gn

This looks like a good alternative to Halon and 55 gallon drums of CO2: www.firecharger.com/

Then there is the time my 911 CIS fuel injection return line ruptured and sprayed fuel all over the motor. I stopped the car, opened the engine compartment and freaked, as I watched the fuel spray over the motor (while idling, because the fuel pressure doesn't change). I shut the motor off and the 'run-off' fuel formed a big puddle underneath the very hot motor (just came off of the freeway). And it didn't catch on fire! Now I've got a big, honking fire extinguisher. Be prepared, because shit happens.
Ron

George:

Did Henry fabricate the fog light brackets on your car? I assume they bolt to the front fender supports, and don't require holes in the body?

Bob

I think Kevin at IM made the light brackets - they connect to the bumper brackets like the original Bosch mounting kit brackets did.

Back to extinguishers again, and I discovered yesterday just how important it is to have one to hand when a spark (wire knocked loose) and fuel combined to set my engine on fire whilst fitting a fuel pressure regulator. (The engine was not running at the time, and the ignition was off)

I've always kept one in the garage and the car just in case, and never needed it.

Unfortunately, the garage extinguisher is powder and it made one hell of a mess. I spent today vacuuming it out....

On the bright side, the damage incurred was the minimal for the scenario and I just need to replace the loom between the battery and the engine (alternator charge, alternator tell-tale, oil pressure switch, ignition, tachometer) which melted beyond recognition. I've temporarily hooked up the ignition (fixed the fuel leak too) and the engine runs.

I now intend to fit a readily acccessible battery cut off switch as I had to remove the battery to stop the sparking....

Simon: Nice clean up job on your engine. Extinguishers make a mess, but at least you had an engine left to clean up.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Robert,

Thanks; though each time I run the engine though, a new layer of powder appears as if by magic! I suspect it'll be with me for months

I consider myself lucky - the damage was the minimum possible given what occurred.

Unsightly extenguisher resolution...

Have a buddy use a little airbrush magic on it. Maybe paint to match the body???

Just an idea.

Simon ...

....Warning the stuff will etch cast and brass items items such as carbs etc and will ruin these items if not properly cleaned!

You will surely have to disassemble the carbs and clean them out, you'll be amazed as to how much of the powder has found it's way into them!

Clean and Clean everything ...Twice... I've been there and done that!