I need to drop the engine/tranny in my CMC type C and want to relocate my external cooler for better results.
Any ideas on the best possible location?
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I need to drop the engine/tranny in my CMC type C and want to relocate my external cooler for better results.
Any ideas on the best possible location?
Any ideas on the best possible location?
The area just above the transmission. Gets plenty of air circulating around it and it's out of the way. With so much room in that area, consider adding a remote fan as well
Kerry: Where is your cooler currently? Why do you want to move it?
BD
BD
Over the tranny is probably the best location (that's where mine is). And, with the motor and tranny out it's a fairly easy job. If you don't already have a fan attached to your cooler now would also be a good time to add one(and a 180 degree thermostat).
Ron
Ron
I've got a couple of oil coolers I never used, if anyone's interested......similar to 6-pass MAXI-Cools from CB Performance with integrated 12V fans. New, in boxes. Also have a single in-line thermostat.
gn
gn
Over the holidays I was looking at another IM owner's car. He has a 2110 and has some high temperature issues, when cruising over 65 mph. We talked about adding an oil cooler and the possiblilty of putting on another shroud (he has a chromed one on now). He's thinking of putting a cooler at the front of the car and running a lines back to the motor. This would include using some type of metal lines for the most part, and short braided lines at each end to connect-up. Any ideas on the loss of oil pressure with lines that long? I also mentioned that looking at the new type 1 Jake Raby fan shroud might be an idea, especially if they can be set up for heat.
Ron
Ron
To Bill:
The current cooler is attached to the back of the doghouse cooler shroud.
Dumb place I know...long story.
The current cooler is attached to the back of the doghouse cooler shroud.
Dumb place I know...long story.
My cooler and fan is attached on stand-offs on the other side of the "backseat" bulkhead. Seems to work ok. The fan cycles on at 180' and the temp holds steady.
BD
BD
Ron,
Oil pressure shouldn't be a problem with a remote cooler.
I don't think I'd go clear to the front of the car with the cooler, as you mentioned.
I run the dog house cooler and two remote coolers; one under the tranny and one along side the tranny. The problem with remote coolers becomes volume.
The coolers probably hold as much as the engine sump. If your oil level gets a little low, and/or you have a high volumn pump, when you "stand on it", the pump will suck the engine sump dry, feeding the coolers. This translates to NO OIL PRESSURE until the oil makes its way back to the sump. Not a good thing.
Something to at least be aware of when planning remote coolers.
Greg B.
Oil pressure shouldn't be a problem with a remote cooler.
I don't think I'd go clear to the front of the car with the cooler, as you mentioned.
I run the dog house cooler and two remote coolers; one under the tranny and one along side the tranny. The problem with remote coolers becomes volume.
The coolers probably hold as much as the engine sump. If your oil level gets a little low, and/or you have a high volumn pump, when you "stand on it", the pump will suck the engine sump dry, feeding the coolers. This translates to NO OIL PRESSURE until the oil makes its way back to the sump. Not a good thing.
Something to at least be aware of when planning remote coolers.
Greg B.
On my IM I have a front mounted cooler...a Mazda RX7 unit...with braided lines and a Mocal thermostat. The engine is a 911 so I suspect there are some differences...
The lines are pretty large...AN 12 maybe? Can't recall. No loss of pressure with such large lines.
Here's a picture of a 356 with a nice looking grille for a front mounted cooler. Think I picked this one up on Parts Obsolete's page one time...
The lines are pretty large...AN 12 maybe? Can't recall. No loss of pressure with such large lines.
Here's a picture of a 356 with a nice looking grille for a front mounted cooler. Think I picked this one up on Parts Obsolete's page one time...
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That's a helluva nice garage for anywhere, especially the Northwest territiories. Is that a hard Tonneau on the car in the background? How 'bout some details?
Will you need help driving these down to Niagra from the NWT's? I volunteer!
Gordon
Will you need help driving these down to Niagra from the NWT's? I volunteer!
Gordon
Ron O:
Is your 2110 friend running the bigger type 1 oil cooler or (hopefully) a type 4?
Transmission oil doesn't compress much, so pressure loss from the back to the front of the car would be limited to expansion of whatever rubber hose you're using. If your friend were to run comparable ID metal tubing through the center tunnel (as we used to do years ago on racing Porsche's and autocross Dune Buggies) and attach high pressure or braided oil lines at the front and rear he shouldn't have any problems (lots of racing Porsches have been doing this for years). Pressure drop after the conversion was something like 10% if memory serves, and we were running straight 50wt oil during the Summer (ok, it was 1969, after all). We never played with "cooler before or after the pump" comparisons - just put it in as easily as possible and lived with it.
HOWEVER!! There's a hell of a lot of oil in there between the lines and cooler capacities and you'll need a deep sump to keep it all happy, especially with something like a Melling high volume pump. With a deep sump (1.5+ qt) I've not personally ever seen it go dry, even on long, high RPM pulls (1776cc in sustained 2nd gear - stock VW oil pump in an autocross) with a front-mounted cooler on a Deserter Dune Buggy.
Hope this helps. Gordon
Is your 2110 friend running the bigger type 1 oil cooler or (hopefully) a type 4?
Transmission oil doesn't compress much, so pressure loss from the back to the front of the car would be limited to expansion of whatever rubber hose you're using. If your friend were to run comparable ID metal tubing through the center tunnel (as we used to do years ago on racing Porsche's and autocross Dune Buggies) and attach high pressure or braided oil lines at the front and rear he shouldn't have any problems (lots of racing Porsches have been doing this for years). Pressure drop after the conversion was something like 10% if memory serves, and we were running straight 50wt oil during the Summer (ok, it was 1969, after all). We never played with "cooler before or after the pump" comparisons - just put it in as easily as possible and lived with it.
HOWEVER!! There's a hell of a lot of oil in there between the lines and cooler capacities and you'll need a deep sump to keep it all happy, especially with something like a Melling high volume pump. With a deep sump (1.5+ qt) I've not personally ever seen it go dry, even on long, high RPM pulls (1776cc in sustained 2nd gear - stock VW oil pump in an autocross) with a front-mounted cooler on a Deserter Dune Buggy.
Hope this helps. Gordon
He is thinking of running metal tubing. I'm running a remote cooler, remote filter and just to be safe, a Gene Berg 3 quart sump. The GB sump is VERY well made, as most of his stuff is. It takes 6 to 7 litres to fill my motor.
Ron
Ron
I'm running pretty much what Gordon suggested as far as sump. My cooler and fan are mounted on the backside of the tub in the firewall deadspace and above the tranny, I run an inline 180' stat and also an overide on/off switch for the fan (the fan cycles with the temp, but I like having the option of overiding that). And I have a 1.5 qt. sump that leaves plenty of ground clearance. Melling pump too. The cooler and lines hold 3.5 quarts, and the sump gives it 5 qts over stock.
I only have a built up 1776 on a 3:88, not a 2110, but this seems to be a good system, On those super hot days it's comforting to watch the temp gauge cycle with the stat. I also have a minimum of chrome. Basic black... My engine oil temp stays reasonable in hot weather, all modes of driving.
I like this location for the cooler because it is somewhat removed from the heat, the lines are easy to bundle and run without chafing concerns, and because it's probably in the best spot under the car to avoid being hit with road trash.
Works for me anyway.
I only have a built up 1776 on a 3:88, not a 2110, but this seems to be a good system, On those super hot days it's comforting to watch the temp gauge cycle with the stat. I also have a minimum of chrome. Basic black... My engine oil temp stays reasonable in hot weather, all modes of driving.
I like this location for the cooler because it is somewhat removed from the heat, the lines are easy to bundle and run without chafing concerns, and because it's probably in the best spot under the car to avoid being hit with road trash.
Works for me anyway.
Greg, Science and I don't get along but the way I remember it
if you put in 50 psi at one end of a tube you get more or less
50 psi at the other. Low sump volume would be the same problem
with or without a remote cooler. Unless "someone" installed a
cooler that was elevated above the oil level and it drained
back (down) into the sump leaving a void to fill at start-up.
I like the rx7 cooler idea, in the past I've used saab coolers
(from the turbo meodels), they have a good shape that mounts
easily in a frontal location. good luck with your projects.
bruce
if you put in 50 psi at one end of a tube you get more or less
50 psi at the other. Low sump volume would be the same problem
with or without a remote cooler. Unless "someone" installed a
cooler that was elevated above the oil level and it drained
back (down) into the sump leaving a void to fill at start-up.
I like the rx7 cooler idea, in the past I've used saab coolers
(from the turbo meodels), they have a good shape that mounts
easily in a frontal location. good luck with your projects.
bruce
Gordon, I could only wish that was my garage. That's a photo from Parts Obsolete in Calif.
My garage is full from floor to ceiling with parts that I have collected over my 20 some odd years up here. There's parts from an old 911T that was an insurance write-off and given to my, there's about a dozen VW engines, trans, etc. Even my 66 912 is on its side to get it in there. Someday I'll have to post a picture..
My garage is full from floor to ceiling with parts that I have collected over my 20 some odd years up here. There's parts from an old 911T that was an insurance write-off and given to my, there's about a dozen VW engines, trans, etc. Even my 66 912 is on its side to get it in there. Someday I'll have to post a picture..
This thread has a lot of good info, and I went through all of this thought process when I was building up my 2110. Bought the additional coolers and all that stuff. Then I called the guys at Gene Berg for their advice and they told me that they'd done a lot of testing with a lot of different oil coolers and found that the larger (dog house) type 1 and the follow-on type 4 stock coolers (GERMAN ONLY!!) cooled the best of anything they'd tried. They STRONGLY recommended that I stay away from the Asian and Brazillian Imported oil coolers - they were weaker and didn't cool as well.
I built up the engine with the bigger type 1 cooler (Junk Yard Stock), used salvaged German type 1 dog house sheetmetal (all black, except for the chromed after market cylinder tins that had to be modified to fit and seal) with a stock thermostat and air flappers and have a Melling high volume pump (Jim Ward - where did you attach your filter lines? I have no clearance between the cover of the oil pump to fit lines!). The firewall air cut-out is removed from in front of the fan air inlet for max flow. The tranny is stock VW gearing with a 3.88 rear.
On days below 40 degrees, the temp gauge never gets off the bottom peg. On 85 - 90 degree days around town, it rises up about 1/4 scale, and same day on a turnpike for over 15 minutes it goes up to 1/2 scale and stays there - drops slightly if I stop in traffic. Acts just like my old 1959, 36hp Beetle, only better acceleration!
Looking for one of those dip-stick thermometers for this Spring so I'll know exactly what my oil temp is, but I'm happy with these results and don't think I'll need any additional cooling.
Hope this doesn't confuse your thought process......I may get that thermometer in there and start to worry, but I doubt it.
gn
I built up the engine with the bigger type 1 cooler (Junk Yard Stock), used salvaged German type 1 dog house sheetmetal (all black, except for the chromed after market cylinder tins that had to be modified to fit and seal) with a stock thermostat and air flappers and have a Melling high volume pump (Jim Ward - where did you attach your filter lines? I have no clearance between the cover of the oil pump to fit lines!). The firewall air cut-out is removed from in front of the fan air inlet for max flow. The tranny is stock VW gearing with a 3.88 rear.
On days below 40 degrees, the temp gauge never gets off the bottom peg. On 85 - 90 degree days around town, it rises up about 1/4 scale, and same day on a turnpike for over 15 minutes it goes up to 1/2 scale and stays there - drops slightly if I stop in traffic. Acts just like my old 1959, 36hp Beetle, only better acceleration!
Looking for one of those dip-stick thermometers for this Spring so I'll know exactly what my oil temp is, but I'm happy with these results and don't think I'll need any additional cooling.
Hope this doesn't confuse your thought process......I may get that thermometer in there and start to worry, but I doubt it.
gn
I don't know about your car but halfway up on the temp. needle is about 230 deg, way too hot. Find out what your gauge is telling you before you decide it's OK.
As for me I run two coolers, one above the tranny and one between the swing axle and torsion beam. The cooler above the tranny does not get enough air even with the fan on. I know this because I added a temp. scoop to push air up to that cooler and found that the car ran much cooler at speed. I'd like to set everything up front as it's what 911's do and what many mid engined race cars do. In SoCal it can get really hot out here, would like to get more thermal reserve.
Perhaps the best way to get a cooler running engine is to get air to the fan, I have a feeling that our cars don't pull air into the engine bay very well due to aero. The hole in the firewall sounds good but I'm sure the car gets much more noisy with the top up. How about bilge fans?
J-P
As for me I run two coolers, one above the tranny and one between the swing axle and torsion beam. The cooler above the tranny does not get enough air even with the fan on. I know this because I added a temp. scoop to push air up to that cooler and found that the car ran much cooler at speed. I'd like to set everything up front as it's what 911's do and what many mid engined race cars do. In SoCal it can get really hot out here, would like to get more thermal reserve.
Perhaps the best way to get a cooler running engine is to get air to the fan, I have a feeling that our cars don't pull air into the engine bay very well due to aero. The hole in the firewall sounds good but I'm sure the car gets much more noisy with the top up. How about bilge fans?
J-P
J-P: You're absolutely right about the gauge being almost meaningless (hell, there aren't even any numbers on it!!), and I mentioned that I'll be adding a dip-stick thermometer (like a chef's candy thermometer) as soon as I find a good one. Then, maybe I'll know what the heck's going on back there for sure. Once I get an idea of what my true operating range is, then I should be able to roughly calibrate this semi-idiot gauge , and I'll also know for sure if I need another cooler!!!!)
I had the same fear about the cooler up over the tranny - not enough air flow without a scoop - even thought of Boxster-style side scoops and abandoned that as too radical for the Speedster look. Then there's the hassle of mounting it, directing air to it and plumbing it. I was also worried of mounting it vertically on the outside wall of the engine compartment next to the wheel - might get a stone ding and puncture it (although George Brown has this set-up on his new IM).
Pretty much ended up with the same idea of front-mounting it on an angle between the bumper mounts, scoop air up to it and exhaust it below the battery well (I've a CMC). Even had room for the fan shroud. Sounded good, and bought a cooler, but I never completed it. The approach of metal tubes through the center channel is tried and true and is easy for a VW or Porsche, which have access covers, but you would have to find a way to get metal tubes into the tunnel and have access at either end - easy when the body's off, lots harder when it's on but not impossible.
Bilge Fans: They really don't move a lot of air compared to the fan in the engine shroud. I would be more inclined to add a shallow scoop across the bottom of the car to pull air up into the cavity between the rear seat and firewall, make sure the hole in the firewall is the size of the fan opening and put a collar on the engine side of the firewall to direct that air into the fan. As you mentioned - get as much cool air to the fan as possible.
Anyway, we're thinking along similar lines here. Guess I'll start seriously looking for a thermometer!
gn
I had the same fear about the cooler up over the tranny - not enough air flow without a scoop - even thought of Boxster-style side scoops and abandoned that as too radical for the Speedster look. Then there's the hassle of mounting it, directing air to it and plumbing it. I was also worried of mounting it vertically on the outside wall of the engine compartment next to the wheel - might get a stone ding and puncture it (although George Brown has this set-up on his new IM).
Pretty much ended up with the same idea of front-mounting it on an angle between the bumper mounts, scoop air up to it and exhaust it below the battery well (I've a CMC). Even had room for the fan shroud. Sounded good, and bought a cooler, but I never completed it. The approach of metal tubes through the center channel is tried and true and is easy for a VW or Porsche, which have access covers, but you would have to find a way to get metal tubes into the tunnel and have access at either end - easy when the body's off, lots harder when it's on but not impossible.
Bilge Fans: They really don't move a lot of air compared to the fan in the engine shroud. I would be more inclined to add a shallow scoop across the bottom of the car to pull air up into the cavity between the rear seat and firewall, make sure the hole in the firewall is the size of the fan opening and put a collar on the engine side of the firewall to direct that air into the fan. As you mentioned - get as much cool air to the fan as possible.
Anyway, we're thinking along similar lines here. Guess I'll start seriously looking for a thermometer!
gn
Gordon, try mainelycustombydesign.com/enginecomponents.htm
Scott: Thanks! That's exactly what I'm looking for......I'll get one ordered tomorrow.
gn
gn
Instead of metal tubes running down the center you could run a long line of stainless, teflon hose through there or run two long metal lines along the side of the car following the heater ducting. I'm starting to think this is really the only way to do it right unless of course your engine is happy with the cooler over the transaxle.
The metal lines on the side made from aluminum is what the 356 racing guys do. The aluminum adds to the cooling effect. Your right about not getting the coolers higher than the sump. I will do this mod this spring as I think what I've got not is not the cleanist way to go. I know it's not going to be easy, thank god there's a place that custom makes teflon hose lengths five minutes away.
J-P
The metal lines on the side made from aluminum is what the 356 racing guys do. The aluminum adds to the cooling effect. Your right about not getting the coolers higher than the sump. I will do this mod this spring as I think what I've got not is not the cleanist way to go. I know it's not going to be easy, thank god there's a place that custom makes teflon hose lengths five minutes away.
J-P
Attached is a picture of my external oil cooler mount. The plan for the fresh air supply is to mount a NACA duct between the frame rail and rocker panel in front of the driver's rear tire. Then using a NACA hose direct fresh air down into the fan /oil cooler.
Joe S
Joe S
Guys:
Thanks to Scott, last Tuesday, I ordered one of those dip-stick thermometers from mainelycustombydesign.com/enginecomponents.htm up in Maine. Had it installed in the car Friday Morning, and it came USPS!
Great guys to buy from and they have other interesting Porsche and VW parts and accessories, with reasonable pricing, too.
Maybe I can convince them to visit us down in Carlisle, or even join the caravan?!?!?!?
Now, All I need is the weather to warm up (a lot!) to get out on the road and see what this thing's doing! Still thinking seriously of mounting a cooler in front between the bumper mounts......we'll see what the warm weather brings!
Gordon
Thanks to Scott, last Tuesday, I ordered one of those dip-stick thermometers from mainelycustombydesign.com/enginecomponents.htm up in Maine. Had it installed in the car Friday Morning, and it came USPS!
Great guys to buy from and they have other interesting Porsche and VW parts and accessories, with reasonable pricing, too.
Maybe I can convince them to visit us down in Carlisle, or even join the caravan?!?!?!?
Now, All I need is the weather to warm up (a lot!) to get out on the road and see what this thing's doing! Still thinking seriously of mounting a cooler in front between the bumper mounts......we'll see what the warm weather brings!
Gordon
Gordon, I don't know if you saw it but I did a new product review on the Mainely dip stick about two months ago. Eddie
Eddie: I remembered it when you mentioned it, then went back and re-read the thread. Same complaint as you: These old tired eyes might need binoculars to read the damn thing, being so small, but a larger one might get in the way of something else in there, so I'll live with it. It fits a little loose, though, so I'll be fixing that, too
Next step is to run at different temps and mark the dash gauge with a marker for a little more intelligence and I should be all set.
Thanks for the note. Gordon
Next step is to run at different temps and mark the dash gauge with a marker for a little more intelligence and I should be all set.
Thanks for the note. Gordon
Gordon, I used a piece of shrink tubing around the base, fits snug. Eddie
Eddie: Damn! Why didn't I think of that?
Thanks, Gordon
P.S: My wife saw the thread about needing binoculars and got me a pair..........
Thanks, Gordon
P.S: My wife saw the thread about needing binoculars and got me a pair..........
Gordon...
When you get your dipstick thermo setup make sure you test the unit before installing. I tested my VDO (supposed to be a good setup right?) sender and found that in boiling water the sender showed a differance of ffifteen deg. After buying two other senders I was able to get within five three deg. of the boiling water. I know this sounds a little crazy but you do want to make sure your gauge is accurate before you trust it.
Place the sender in a pot of boiling water suspended by a wire so that it doesn't touch the pan bottom and get your reading. If I can remember right boiling water at sea level is at 212 deg. F but double check me if you want to be sure.
J-P
When you get your dipstick thermo setup make sure you test the unit before installing. I tested my VDO (supposed to be a good setup right?) sender and found that in boiling water the sender showed a differance of ffifteen deg. After buying two other senders I was able to get within five three deg. of the boiling water. I know this sounds a little crazy but you do want to make sure your gauge is accurate before you trust it.
Place the sender in a pot of boiling water suspended by a wire so that it doesn't touch the pan bottom and get your reading. If I can remember right boiling water at sea level is at 212 deg. F but double check me if you want to be sure.
J-P
For those of you planning to put your oil cooler up front I found a site called Pure Choice Performance Plumbing they carry larger steel or(I think) aluminum line buy the foot and a large assortment of metric fittings and line restraints
Check Um out, and see just what they do or don't have.
Check Um out, and see just what they do or don't have.
In the movie called "King of the Mountain" The wide body speedster has a large oil cooler sticking out of its trunk air vent. Is anybody familiar with this type of oil cooler, and does it work?
I hope I'm not the only one who has seen the flick. If so I will try to get a pic of the car off the video and post it.
btw, the movie is referenced in the sightings area.
thanks.
I hope I'm not the only one who has seen the flick. If so I will try to get a pic of the car off the video and post it.
btw, the movie is referenced in the sightings area.
thanks.
A source for used Aeroquip hose and connectors if you decide on that route. Supposed to be good quality and guaranteed.
www.musclemotorsports.com/aeroquip.html
Brian
www.musclemotorsports.com/aeroquip.html
Brian
I just picked up this thread and found it informative, but I didn't see my type of setup, so I'll lay it on the anvil (be gentle!)
I've got a 1954cc T1 with dual coolers. They're joined together with two pieces of 1"
I've got a 1954cc T1 with dual coolers. They're joined together with two pieces of 1"