Anybody?
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Anybody?
because they are more expensive.
Not with a 10 ft pole....
Why is a big block have more HP than a small block?
Larger Bore ,longer stroke , larger CUI
Larger Bore ,longer stroke , larger CUI
They do?
Ah....Joe snuck that post in before me so they now look weird....
OK, then.....if the bore and stroke is the same on both to produce, say, 2,110 cc's, and the cams both have about the same grind, and the carbs are the same (say Weber 44's) and they're both running the same exhaust extractor system and mufflers, I don't see where there would be any difference in either horsepower or torque. they should produce about the same power at the same RPM's.
Then, the only difference is what Pat mentioned - the type 4 would cost more to get there.
Gordon
Ah....Joe snuck that post in before me so they now look weird....
OK, then.....if the bore and stroke is the same on both to produce, say, 2,110 cc's, and the cams both have about the same grind, and the carbs are the same (say Weber 44's) and they're both running the same exhaust extractor system and mufflers, I don't see where there would be any difference in either horsepower or torque. they should produce about the same power at the same RPM's.
Then, the only difference is what Pat mentioned - the type 4 would cost more to get there.
Gordon
Gordon, you must have a shorter pole than Stan does.
You can in theory produce more hp in identical engines if one is running cooler head temperatures then the other. This assumes that the type 1 is getting hot enough that it is starting to lose hp. Thats about the only difference I can come up with? And its only a 10ft pole theory at that...LOL
Its the head design.. The factory designed the TIV head with short exhaust ports under the head for better cooling and to produce more torque to power heavy 5,000 pound busses and tall geared Porsche 914s or a heavy 411/412 sedan.
And they don't just have more peak torque than a comparable TI, but also a much flatter torque curve for very smooth driving.
BTW- They are NOT more expensive than a TI that is built to be as strong, run as cool, or last as long...
Every exotic aftermarket part in the world for the TI still won't create an engine as strong as a TIV. It may make more power but it definately won't last as long with as little maintenance.
The running temperatures create a combination that is easier to make more efficient because we can run much higher CR than a TI because the engine has 23% more surface area to get the heat into the cooling air stream...
It is impossible to compare a TI and a TIV. Two different engines designed by the factory to do two separate things and modified by guys like me yet again for two separate sets of goals. I understand why the TI guys do what they do, but most of them are too closed minded to even attepmt to comprehend what we do.
Until you have driven a car with MassIVe power it is impossible to understand.
And they don't just have more peak torque than a comparable TI, but also a much flatter torque curve for very smooth driving.
BTW- They are NOT more expensive than a TI that is built to be as strong, run as cool, or last as long...
Every exotic aftermarket part in the world for the TI still won't create an engine as strong as a TIV. It may make more power but it definately won't last as long with as little maintenance.
The running temperatures create a combination that is easier to make more efficient because we can run much higher CR than a TI because the engine has 23% more surface area to get the heat into the cooling air stream...
It is impossible to compare a TI and a TIV. Two different engines designed by the factory to do two separate things and modified by guys like me yet again for two separate sets of goals. I understand why the TI guys do what they do, but most of them are too closed minded to even attepmt to comprehend what we do.
Until you have driven a car with MassIVe power it is impossible to understand.
Now there's an answer I bet nobody saw coming.
HEY, I was kind of right? I think comparing the t4 to a t1 is like comparing a t4 to a subaru liquid cooled engine. They figured out how to make things run cooler and better which gives a better power band. Of course the subaru has the added advantages of modern computer controls and fuel injection, but it really is the next development and follows a pretty logical sequence if you think about it. Whats interesting is when we take modern developments such as fuel injection and appyl it to the old engines...I think thats pretty cool stuff.
Yep... Thats one reason why by mid summer ALL my engines will be equipped with modern fuel injection...
BUT Subaru has water for cooling and water cools upward of 30% better than air.
Now I'm waiting for George.... I know he'll be here sooner or later- This is so much fun!
BUT Subaru has water for cooling and water cools upward of 30% better than air.
Now I'm waiting for George.... I know he'll be here sooner or later- This is so much fun!
Thanks Jake
Yeah...thanks, Jake! That was a pretty good write-up.
"I understand why the TI guys do what they do, but most of them are too closed minded to even attepmt to comprehend ...."
It is great to have the resorce of open minded discussion that is available on this site.
It is great to have the resorce of open minded discussion that is available on this site.
A-Men Dale!
Jake beats his own drum so much its a wonder if any of us can even hear any longer. This thread is so redundant it makes me sick.
Bruce
Jake beats his own drum so much its a wonder if any of us can even hear any longer. This thread is so redundant it makes me sick.
Bruce
When is somebody going to bring a portable rear wheel to Knott's? All results would be publicly posted, perhaps by displacement. That would be great for a "put up or shut up" show!
DUMMY! I left out the word rear wheel "dynometer..."
OK OK I can't spell dynomometer!
No, wait. Which group was "closed minded" again? I'm confused.
Hey I tried to make it new and exciting by bringing in the subaru engine, but lates face it thats been worked to death also. I love this site...just makes me laugh.
Rarely do I get into politics of a discussion but without doubt warranted on this post.
I wouldn't say "Jake beats his own drum" what Jake does is reply with quality and accurate information.
Regular posting members... Gordon, George, Joe, TC many others myself included spend quite a bit of time perusing posts and replying to various questions in hopes to be informative and save others some of their hard earned almighty buck by doing it right the first time . Isn't this what the SO.com is all about?
Should stand aside and be mute to avoid the rare possibility of "someone becoming ill? ...I think not.
Read the daily world headlines, that will do it for sure!
I'm not tooting Jake's or my horn however, I've had the distinct pleasure if installing two of Jake's type IV motors in speedsters
(Raby dyno sheets available) the peak, as well as flatter peak torque is just awesome!
My 28 y/o son hit the nail on the head on his first drive in a
T-IV powered speedster...and I'll quote: "Weeeeeee Daddy!"
A happy and content Raby customer!
I don't beat my own drum...
I beat the drum of an engine that I love and a conversion of that engine easily into any vehicle that originally was fitted with a TI or 616 Porsche power plant... Whats wrong with that?
If one doesn't want to hear the stories avoid reading post that automatically state their total content in the subject line- Like this one comparing TI Vs TIV.
The TIV is a great strong engine and I will continue to promote it to those who would otherwsie never even know it exists and will do so until the day that I die...
Just wait till the website I have been working on for about 6 years kicks off sometime later this year, thats really going to irritate those that get tired of the drum beating- Ask me if I care.
Where the hell is George anyway??
I beat the drum of an engine that I love and a conversion of that engine easily into any vehicle that originally was fitted with a TI or 616 Porsche power plant... Whats wrong with that?
If one doesn't want to hear the stories avoid reading post that automatically state their total content in the subject line- Like this one comparing TI Vs TIV.
The TIV is a great strong engine and I will continue to promote it to those who would otherwsie never even know it exists and will do so until the day that I die...
Just wait till the website I have been working on for about 6 years kicks off sometime later this year, thats really going to irritate those that get tired of the drum beating- Ask me if I care.
Where the hell is George anyway??
Thanks Jake for the informative post, always enjoy reading your what you've got to say.
That cracked me up "Where the hell is George anyway??"
I'm not sure I agree with your statement regarding being able to build an engine as strong as a type IV, as George Brown pointed out, the more expensive TF-1 (type 1 from Precision Alloy) aluminum case uses through bolts just like a type IV, and can be machined for type IV main bearings and use a type 1 crank with type IV main journals.
Jake, will you be selling the FI units, or will they only be available on your engine kits/complete engines?
Bruce, sorry you feel this thread is redundant, did a search, and couldn't find any explanation on why Type IV's are more torquey.
Dave
That cracked me up "Where the hell is George anyway??"
I'm not sure I agree with your statement regarding being able to build an engine as strong as a type IV, as George Brown pointed out, the more expensive TF-1 (type 1 from Precision Alloy) aluminum case uses through bolts just like a type IV, and can be machined for type IV main bearings and use a type 1 crank with type IV main journals.
Jake, will you be selling the FI units, or will they only be available on your engine kits/complete engines?
Bruce, sorry you feel this thread is redundant, did a search, and couldn't find any explanation on why Type IV's are more torquey.
Dave
I like the sound of Jake's drum. And I'm glad he beats it, the information he has shared has been invaluable. D-man
I have a TF-1 case here 5 feet from me..
It is the nicest "New" case on the market but it is still sandcast and not die cast and is porous because of this. The TF-1 does have throughbolts and thats a great thing.. BUT have you tried to purchase a TF-1?? I got really lucky with mine and got it in a few weeks... Now I know guys that have been waiting for 2 years for one with no luck... The designer, Todd Francis could hardly make anything off of them because of the extreme manufacturing expense. The aftermarket simply cannot produce a die cast case because the dies would cost more than 3 very nice houses at minimum.... If you think about it you'll see that the best case on the market uses the FACTORY dimensions for the main bores and crank journals.. There is a good reason for this and really the TF-1 is creating a bottom end like a TIV.... a TF-1 is about 1400 bucks and a used inspected machined TIV case is 350 and its stronger... Think hard about that.. Thats when the TIV isn't more expensive than a "Comparable Type I" which is a huge misconception of the majority of magazine readers.
Its more than just the case that makes the TIV strong. Things like main bearing journals larger than a Big Block chevy, larger diameter lifter bores that fully support the side loading of the lifter, a flywheel that has 5 BOLTS to hold it in place, not a gland nut and dowels (Like a V-8)... You'll never hear of a TIV needing a wedgemate to securely fasten the flywheel to the crank because the set up is super strong... Heck even with HUGE parts the TIV is still stronger than a TI.. My 3.0 uses a 105.7mm bore and the cylinder is .100 thicker than a 94mm TI and my case still isn't maxxed out and can go to 106.3mm safely.
The list goes on and on.. If you sit down and compare the wonderful parts that VW gave the TIV Vs aftermarket China and Taiwan made parts the differences are evident even to an untrained eye.
The 3 liter, 10:1 231HP Daily Driver that makes all its power below 5,000 RPM is doing great... 1200 miles in 3 weeks and I haven't touched it since it came off the dyno. Head and oil temps with my DTM are near identical to the specs given by the factory for oil and head temps for a STOCK 1600 TI! (and it don't even have the FI yet and it needs a cam change bad- this was a baseline run for the new heads)
I know some guys get tired of the same things over and over.... Notice that I never start these posts, I answer the questions that no one else can so don't get mad when I respond in Viper mode..
It is the nicest "New" case on the market but it is still sandcast and not die cast and is porous because of this. The TF-1 does have throughbolts and thats a great thing.. BUT have you tried to purchase a TF-1?? I got really lucky with mine and got it in a few weeks... Now I know guys that have been waiting for 2 years for one with no luck... The designer, Todd Francis could hardly make anything off of them because of the extreme manufacturing expense. The aftermarket simply cannot produce a die cast case because the dies would cost more than 3 very nice houses at minimum.... If you think about it you'll see that the best case on the market uses the FACTORY dimensions for the main bores and crank journals.. There is a good reason for this and really the TF-1 is creating a bottom end like a TIV.... a TF-1 is about 1400 bucks and a used inspected machined TIV case is 350 and its stronger... Think hard about that.. Thats when the TIV isn't more expensive than a "Comparable Type I" which is a huge misconception of the majority of magazine readers.
Its more than just the case that makes the TIV strong. Things like main bearing journals larger than a Big Block chevy, larger diameter lifter bores that fully support the side loading of the lifter, a flywheel that has 5 BOLTS to hold it in place, not a gland nut and dowels (Like a V-8)... You'll never hear of a TIV needing a wedgemate to securely fasten the flywheel to the crank because the set up is super strong... Heck even with HUGE parts the TIV is still stronger than a TI.. My 3.0 uses a 105.7mm bore and the cylinder is .100 thicker than a 94mm TI and my case still isn't maxxed out and can go to 106.3mm safely.
The list goes on and on.. If you sit down and compare the wonderful parts that VW gave the TIV Vs aftermarket China and Taiwan made parts the differences are evident even to an untrained eye.
The 3 liter, 10:1 231HP Daily Driver that makes all its power below 5,000 RPM is doing great... 1200 miles in 3 weeks and I haven't touched it since it came off the dyno. Head and oil temps with my DTM are near identical to the specs given by the factory for oil and head temps for a STOCK 1600 TI! (and it don't even have the FI yet and it needs a cam change bad- this was a baseline run for the new heads)
I know some guys get tired of the same things over and over.... Notice that I never start these posts, I answer the questions that no one else can so don't get mad when I respond in Viper mode..
Take two Zolofts and go Blow yourself an engine in the morning.
Jim
Jim
i gotta be honest, it all (if not mostly)comes down to money. for me
it should be aircooled but you can't deny the suby for power,
smoothness, trouble free etc..to have 180-280 hp on trouble free tap,
would be great. for availability of parts, cost, familiarity and
my practical use type 1 makes more sense. again i can't deny the
progress of the t-4 over the t-1 but if i was only concerned with progress why would i pick a speedster. for ultimate vw aircooled power
(if thats what you need) i'd go with the t-4. for your avg. joe
type 1 fits the bill fine. imho
it should be aircooled but you can't deny the suby for power,
smoothness, trouble free etc..to have 180-280 hp on trouble free tap,
would be great. for availability of parts, cost, familiarity and
my practical use type 1 makes more sense. again i can't deny the
progress of the t-4 over the t-1 but if i was only concerned with progress why would i pick a speedster. for ultimate vw aircooled power
(if thats what you need) i'd go with the t-4. for your avg. joe
type 1 fits the bill fine. imho
I too gotta be honest, too. It isnt money for me, it is attitude. The self proclaimed best engine builder on that side of the country, in that state would never build an engine for me. He is an "artist" and I would not suck up to him as his "cult" does on Shop Talk Forum.
Alan, I have never been involved in the "politics" of the site and you and others are not included in the comments. The type IV sounds like a fantastic engine and I would definitly consider one. But not from that part of the east coast. I can find equallly fine engines and not have to deal with the blustering "truth" and "artistic arogance" bull s it that is nearly always a part of his posts.
He is now a "merchant" member (about time) and I guess that entitles every post to be a commercial. Perhap it is time to have a catagorie for Raby's Rants similar to Shop Talk and Spyder Club. That way I can still read about type IV's but get the more unbiased info with out the commercial rant.
Alan, I have never been involved in the "politics" of the site and you and others are not included in the comments. The type IV sounds like a fantastic engine and I would definitly consider one. But not from that part of the east coast. I can find equallly fine engines and not have to deal with the blustering "truth" and "artistic arogance" bull s it that is nearly always a part of his posts.
He is now a "merchant" member (about time) and I guess that entitles every post to be a commercial. Perhap it is time to have a catagorie for Raby's Rants similar to Shop Talk and Spyder Club. That way I can still read about type IV's but get the more unbiased info with out the commercial rant.
I post this with trepedation however this is the first discussion that I have read on the two motors. I am thinking of more HP down line and there is just not anything that makes me feel comfortable with a tricked T1 with roller crank etc etc which no one will warranty, That is why I had a top to bottom 1776 built. I wanted it to last for a couple of years of spirited driving. Jake's posting gave me the technical background and logic as to why the T4 puts out more hp. The same reason that as kids we pushed our cars till we were just ready to race at the grudge drags at Fremont on Friday nights. Temperature.
Will I be ordering an engine by a builder from across the country. Hell no. There are a couple right here in Oregon that build 10 sec bugs. I think they can do the job. And when they blow I will be able to meet with them fface to face.
Will I be ordering an engine by a builder from across the country. Hell no. There are a couple right here in Oregon that build 10 sec bugs. I think they can do the job. And when they blow I will be able to meet with them fface to face.
I've seen this same discussion, or similar, on many a forum, and for the first time I thought I'd offer up my thoughts (which may or many not be a good thing !)
I think choice of engine is very much a personal one, depending on the proposed use of the Speedster replica in question, and the spirit in which it is built. If you are going for maximum originality, then an orignal 356 motor may be the best choice for you.
I think the majority of speedster owners are well served with a well built T1 motor. My rationale for this ? I don't disagree with Jake Raby's statement that a T4 engine can outlast a T1 engine, but look at the mileage the 'average' (I use this term advisedly) speedster owner does. In the UK it probably amounts to about 4K miles per year. At that rate, even a half decent T1 engine should last 20 years.
In terms of power/torque, how much do you really need ? I would suggest a 2110 T1 engine can supply as much performance as most people really require.
Having said all this, if you want the ultimate and can afford it, a well built T4 engine is probably a great choice. I think Jake Raby builds some great engines, and invests a great deal in taking the aircooled engine forward, whether you like his marketing techniques or not.
If you're not concerned about running an aircooled engine, then why not fit a Subaru engine ? If done right, you are pretty much guaranteed excellent reliability and performance.
The bottom line for me is, fit something which makes sense for your application, depending on usage, budget and constraints like authenticity. Whatever you do, good luck and be happy with it. But this isn't a 'one size fits all' decision
I think choice of engine is very much a personal one, depending on the proposed use of the Speedster replica in question, and the spirit in which it is built. If you are going for maximum originality, then an orignal 356 motor may be the best choice for you.
I think the majority of speedster owners are well served with a well built T1 motor. My rationale for this ? I don't disagree with Jake Raby's statement that a T4 engine can outlast a T1 engine, but look at the mileage the 'average' (I use this term advisedly) speedster owner does. In the UK it probably amounts to about 4K miles per year. At that rate, even a half decent T1 engine should last 20 years.
In terms of power/torque, how much do you really need ? I would suggest a 2110 T1 engine can supply as much performance as most people really require.
Having said all this, if you want the ultimate and can afford it, a well built T4 engine is probably a great choice. I think Jake Raby builds some great engines, and invests a great deal in taking the aircooled engine forward, whether you like his marketing techniques or not.
If you're not concerned about running an aircooled engine, then why not fit a Subaru engine ? If done right, you are pretty much guaranteed excellent reliability and performance.
The bottom line for me is, fit something which makes sense for your application, depending on usage, budget and constraints like authenticity. Whatever you do, good luck and be happy with it. But this isn't a 'one size fits all' decision
What is the difference in weight between a T1 and a TIV engine? Guess it might not be much to make a huge difference, but just curious...
Aound 30 pounds I believe
Thank you Dale. Alan, it's not politics, is the Venom. Jake can't sell without ripping other products, based on his "opinion". Screw that. Pat Downs came on here and defended his product with honesty and then quietly left the forum. It's not about Politics, or T-1s/4s. It's about maturity.
This forum and the SOC was built on common passions, and 99% of us being happy when someone gets what they want. I love it when you are happy with your T-4 Alan, and I am absolutely sure you are happy for me when I smile about the smoothest T-1 stroker I've ever driven (2 days ago). Jake can't do that.. he has to slam the MSD, or the the case, or some other BS. Look at the other VW forums Alan, it's Jake and the Weasel Toon boys, ripping and shredding. That's what is happening here. We cannot talk about a T-1 without a Toon-4 Rochester Weasel making it a T4-T1 debate and Jake comes in with his "take the hill" mentality. If you started a T-4 discussion, I think 99% of us would sit back and try and learn. I think you are the same way, Alan, a good guy. It's not the Product, it's the Slash and Burn Sales.
David, you seem like a cool guy, but why blood bait to chum up the thread? What real purpose does it serve? Is there a forum with the builders from FAT, MissIVe, CB, Serrano, SAW, yada, on here to make the pitches fair? No, our resident OJT metallurgist comes on and spews the facts like my weatherman the meteroligist does. Just selling the weather. At least my weatherman aplogizes for the bad forcast, and he smiles and tells a joke. If Jake were a Weatherman, we all would have the same forecast...... every stinkin day: Fires and floods on the west coast, hail storms in Maryland, Twisters in Oklahoma, and sunny days in Alabama. So, why ask him what the weather is? You know it by heart!
I am pleased when Vince is stoked about his stroker, I am pleased when someone gets a FAT or Raby 4. I am happy for Ralph and his 1776 because I really understand his passion for that engine. I am happy for John and Steve getting their piece of the wet dream,, and I am pleased when Bill Steele drives the sweetest T-1 you could hope for. It's not about Diversity with Jake, it's about Adversity hidden in so called Facts. Jake and The Riverboat Captains for T-1 Truth.
I'm sick of this crap. And I am turning the channel. Click.
This forum and the SOC was built on common passions, and 99% of us being happy when someone gets what they want. I love it when you are happy with your T-4 Alan, and I am absolutely sure you are happy for me when I smile about the smoothest T-1 stroker I've ever driven (2 days ago). Jake can't do that.. he has to slam the MSD, or the the case, or some other BS. Look at the other VW forums Alan, it's Jake and the Weasel Toon boys, ripping and shredding. That's what is happening here. We cannot talk about a T-1 without a Toon-4 Rochester Weasel making it a T4-T1 debate and Jake comes in with his "take the hill" mentality. If you started a T-4 discussion, I think 99% of us would sit back and try and learn. I think you are the same way, Alan, a good guy. It's not the Product, it's the Slash and Burn Sales.
David, you seem like a cool guy, but why blood bait to chum up the thread? What real purpose does it serve? Is there a forum with the builders from FAT, MissIVe, CB, Serrano, SAW, yada, on here to make the pitches fair? No, our resident OJT metallurgist comes on and spews the facts like my weatherman the meteroligist does. Just selling the weather. At least my weatherman aplogizes for the bad forcast, and he smiles and tells a joke. If Jake were a Weatherman, we all would have the same forecast...... every stinkin day: Fires and floods on the west coast, hail storms in Maryland, Twisters in Oklahoma, and sunny days in Alabama. So, why ask him what the weather is? You know it by heart!
I am pleased when Vince is stoked about his stroker, I am pleased when someone gets a FAT or Raby 4. I am happy for Ralph and his 1776 because I really understand his passion for that engine. I am happy for John and Steve getting their piece of the wet dream,, and I am pleased when Bill Steele drives the sweetest T-1 you could hope for. It's not about Diversity with Jake, it's about Adversity hidden in so called Facts. Jake and The Riverboat Captains for T-1 Truth.
I'm sick of this crap. And I am turning the channel. Click.
Greetings all, I was invited to drop into this forum by one of your members, David Dowling. I did not know I was heading into a fire fight. I am the manufacturer of the Precision Alloy LTD. TF-1 type 1 engine case and he David thought it would be informative if I could join the discussion. Opinions of what engine is "best" are as vast in number as people who use them. Type 4 engines certainly have their place in the VW scene especially where there is the room in the vehicle for them and when competition rules for given racecar classes allow their use. I come from the off-road racing end of the VW specturm and type 4 engines took over the type 1 engines years ago as engine of choics when builders finally figured out how to make good reliable horsepower out of type 4's in the unlimited class 1. Now it is all V8 horsepower if you want to win The Baja 1000 over all. It will take 600 or 700 HP to get a overall win these days so the VW power is a thing of the past in the unlimited class. Not so long ago though, VW power was the thing to beat. There are classes now that do use VW power. One class is class 12 and this class requires type 1 engines. This class is why I decided to do the TF-1. Before the TF-1 existed the only choice the off road engine builders had for new 2 piece cases was the VW mag case. These cases would not last more that 2 races before they would crack and fail. I don't think anything beats things harder than off-road race use. The guys were getting tired of recasing engines and one of the builders came to me. I had all of the things you need lined up to make a case and jumped into it. That was about 4 years ago and I have had a couple of engines (case #3 and #6) running all of the Score races since with no cracks or failures. One case won the Championship points for the class and they have won several races in their class. The cases have been working very well. The problem I have had with them is trying to get them manufactured. It has been very costly and time consuming. We are constantly retooling trying to fix production problems and things are gettng better but I am not quite there yet with the system I want to have to make these things cost effective. It has kind of turned into a passion or a hobby for me to try to get things going. I would like to see a lot of these out in the world some day.
Jake mentioned that he did not like the sand cast much and went on to explain why we need to sand cast these cases. Production numbers are just is not there to satifsy the cost of die cast. The cases I have sand cast are done very well with good degassing control and quality material. So far with about 70 cases built I have not seen any oil seeping out of any of the castings. Mendeola Transmissions has his castings done at the same shop. He has done over 5000 tranny cases with no porosity problems. It is all about quality control.
I was at the San Felipe off road race a few weeks back and was very pleased with a new engine built with a TF-1. A new car was built by Aluma Craft for class 10 and type 1 power was used. This class is dominated by 15'000 dollar Honda engines. The owner of Aluma Craft has done well with a type 4 in his personal car. He missed winning class points last year by 1 point. He built this new car with my case for a customer and he was telling people after the race that the t1 went blowing past him with the t4 up a sand wash. The ty1 car ended up 2nd to a Honda just 50 seconds back in a tough 250 mile race. It doesn't mean I am saying type 1's are better or anything I was just pleased to see it and know they are so competitive in this class. These engines are limited to 1915 cc for a single seater and 2000 ccs for a 2 seater. They do put out about 145 hp in race trim with race gas.
I would be glad to feild any questions about the TF-1 here on the forum
Jake mentioned that he did not like the sand cast much and went on to explain why we need to sand cast these cases. Production numbers are just is not there to satifsy the cost of die cast. The cases I have sand cast are done very well with good degassing control and quality material. So far with about 70 cases built I have not seen any oil seeping out of any of the castings. Mendeola Transmissions has his castings done at the same shop. He has done over 5000 tranny cases with no porosity problems. It is all about quality control.
I was at the San Felipe off road race a few weeks back and was very pleased with a new engine built with a TF-1. A new car was built by Aluma Craft for class 10 and type 1 power was used. This class is dominated by 15'000 dollar Honda engines. The owner of Aluma Craft has done well with a type 4 in his personal car. He missed winning class points last year by 1 point. He built this new car with my case for a customer and he was telling people after the race that the t1 went blowing past him with the t4 up a sand wash. The ty1 car ended up 2nd to a Honda just 50 seconds back in a tough 250 mile race. It doesn't mean I am saying type 1's are better or anything I was just pleased to see it and know they are so competitive in this class. These engines are limited to 1915 cc for a single seater and 2000 ccs for a 2 seater. They do put out about 145 hp in race trim with race gas.
I would be glad to feild any questions about the TF-1 here on the forum
Hey Todd, thanks for dropping in and sharing your thoughts with us, I appreciate it.
Your case sounds awesome for the T1 guys who are able to afford the top of the line case.
I'm curious what components you use when building a 2000cc T1, and what HP/torque you're achieving - also what's the cost of building one of your class 12 engines.
Thanks again,
Dave
Your case sounds awesome for the T1 guys who are able to afford the top of the line case.
I'm curious what components you use when building a 2000cc T1, and what HP/torque you're achieving - also what's the cost of building one of your class 12 engines.
Thanks again,
Dave
"Greetings all, I was invited to drop into this forum by one of your members, David Dowling."
"Hey Todd, thanks for dropping in and sharing your thoughts with us, I appreciate it."
???
Isn't this kinda like a ventriloquist having a conversation with his own sock puppet?
:)
TC
"Hey Todd, thanks for dropping in and sharing your thoughts with us, I appreciate it."
???
Isn't this kinda like a ventriloquist having a conversation with his own sock puppet?
:)
TC
Good to hear from Todd; I met him when he dropped in at CB Performance while Pat was building my engine.
My 2,387 was built on a TF-1 case and there are no leaks/seeps/weeps. Also, oil pressure is outstanding, running over 4 bars (60 psi) cruising at 3,200 RPM on a hot day with 215 degree oil temp using 10/40 synthetic.
The fact is that a large type 1 stoker built on the aluminum case from CB Performance or a TF-1 case with type 4 mains and a flanged (bolt-on, not gland-nut) Scat forged crank/flywheel should be as strong and reliable as a type 4.
Simple enough folks, "ya pays yer money and ya takes yer cherce".
My 2,387 was built on a TF-1 case and there are no leaks/seeps/weeps. Also, oil pressure is outstanding, running over 4 bars (60 psi) cruising at 3,200 RPM on a hot day with 215 degree oil temp using 10/40 synthetic.
The fact is that a large type 1 stoker built on the aluminum case from CB Performance or a TF-1 case with type 4 mains and a flanged (bolt-on, not gland-nut) Scat forged crank/flywheel should be as strong and reliable as a type 4.
Simple enough folks, "ya pays yer money and ya takes yer cherce".
I'm curious what components you use when building a 2000cc T1, and what HP/torque you're achieving - also what's the cost of building one of your class 12 engines.
I don't build the 12 engines myself. There are several race shops in the Southwest that build them like Major Performance, FAT, Wiks and the list can go on. I have heard that a FAT engine complete is approching $10,000. Each race engine builder seems to have his own formula for the components of these engines. Some use 92 pistons and some use 94's with the appropriate stroke to make the exact displacement required. 12 engines develop around 130 horses at 1776cc's (single carb). The rule changes to class 10 allow up to 2000cc's and duel carbs. I think they dyno out around 150 hp. Remember, these engines are built for desert racing and can go flat out for 1000 miles. You can of course get more hp for a drag car use but they just won't last for off road racing.
Hey George!! Nice to hear from you. I am glad to hear the case is treating you right.
To return to the original question Dave: Here is what is confusing to me and maybe to others about the whole torque vs horsepower scene. For over 40 years a "torque motor" was one with a stoke longer than its bore. Undersquare is the layman's term. A few million six cylinder pickup truck engines and nearly all commercial diesels come to mind. A "horsepower" motor was characterized as oversquare, with a bore larger than a stroke, maximum piston top area for valves (breathing), and therefore more adaptable for higher RPM, hence higher horsepower use.
That paradigm doesn't seem to hold any more. My type four is 71 stroke by 103 bore. An oversquare motor if ever there was one. But everyone, including it's builder, agrees this is a torque motor. And indeed, it does have surprising high gear acceleration. Oops, it's also got larger valves and Webers. I can hear Jake now, " It's the system...." Maybe the truth is that paradigm is dead. I know fuel injection killed the old paradigm, maybe our latest head technology and carb tricks have killed the paradigm for carburated engines also?
The other "tilt" here is that with our typical very short 1st gear ratios, maybe low-end torque is just not much of an issue any more? Technology often raises as many issues as it answers.
"We are just as confused as we always were, but at a higher level, and about more important issues."
That paradigm doesn't seem to hold any more. My type four is 71 stroke by 103 bore. An oversquare motor if ever there was one. But everyone, including it's builder, agrees this is a torque motor. And indeed, it does have surprising high gear acceleration. Oops, it's also got larger valves and Webers. I can hear Jake now, " It's the system...." Maybe the truth is that paradigm is dead. I know fuel injection killed the old paradigm, maybe our latest head technology and carb tricks have killed the paradigm for carburated engines also?
The other "tilt" here is that with our typical very short 1st gear ratios, maybe low-end torque is just not much of an issue any more? Technology often raises as many issues as it answers.
"We are just as confused as we always were, but at a higher level, and about more important issues."