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I've followed the posts about tire size and axels, did look around for info but haven't found opinions like this site listers express. So I need some opinions:

I put a camber compensator on my first new VW in 1965, it made a really big difference going around corners and curves as we all know. Ditto on my '63 Ghia drop-top. Never had IRS.

My current speedster has swing axles, a camber compensator and there is a sway bar in front. Love it, no body roll, even with a little oversteer breakaway, nice and flat.

I'm specing a new speedster, what would IRS do for me?

1957 Vintage Speedsters(Speedster)
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I've followed the posts about tire size and axels, did look around for info but haven't found opinions like this site listers express. So I need some opinions:

I put a camber compensator on my first new VW in 1965, it made a really big difference going around corners and curves as we all know. Ditto on my '63 Ghia drop-top. Never had IRS.

My current speedster has swing axles, a camber compensator and there is a sway bar in front. Love it, no body roll, even with a little oversteer breakaway, nice and flat.

I'm specing a new speedster, what would IRS do for me?

Hey, Sludge.
You know my car used to be IRS, right?
I've noticed the ride's been a lot more harsh with the swing axles; it seems the IRS smoothed out the bumps and floated in the corners. The swing setup allows for wider tires and a bigger selection of transaxle guts.
My two cents.
I have had one of each....the IRS car handled far better with far less work than did the swing axle. Rode better too....that said I am currently building another swing axle....if you really really want to push the handling I would start with the IRS and add sway bars front and rear, and maybe softer torsion bars with possibly adjustible coil over shocks, or maybe eliminate the torsion bars and do adjustable coil overs on all 4 corners....just to drive and enjoy the swing axles are fine. And some very high performance drag cars use swing axles, but cornering is not so good with swing axles IMO....
OK, Mike - been away for a couple of days and didn't see this thread and since Jim is the only one on here who remotely addressed your question, here goes (get ready for a long read, and I'll address Stan's remark as we go along):

First, SUSPENSION GEOMETRY: In a nut shell, swing arm wheels don't go straight up and down - they travel around an arc of about 18 inches. As they go up, the bottom of the wheel goes out. As they go down, the bottom of the whel goes in and begins to tuck under. Hold your arm straight out at your side, fingers pointed straight down. As you raise your arm, your finger tips will angle out - that's what your wheel does.

When you install a camber compensator you are putting a leaf spring across the bottom of the axles (or swing arms, if you prefer) which is meant to (a.) hold both wheels parallel to each other as much as possible and (b.) attempt to keep the rear wheels on the ground and NOT tuck under on hard corners. The harder you take a corner, the more likely a rear wheel will, with the movement of the body from a "flat" line, try to tuck under and THAT causes less and less of the tire tread to remain on the ground. It has no choice - that's the way the susension geometry works. If a wheel tucks under and loses a significant amount of tire tread ground patch (it actually pulls up to 75% of the tread patch up off the ground from the inside to the outside), then it is possible to have a catastrophic event occur where the car can actually flip over as it rolls onto the outside edge of the wheel - the same event that made a name for Ralph Nader on the early, swing axle Corvairs.

The camber compensator will alleviate some of the oversteer which causes the movement of the rear axles, but it can't correct it - remember, those wheels HAVE to move that way and all you can do is try to limit some of the movement which will push the catastrophic event farther out in the performance profile.

Now, with IRS, the wheel is rigidly held by a triangular assembly (diagonal arm and spring plate) which holds the hub and wheel in strict alignment as the wheel goes up and down. The wheel HAS to go straight up and down - that's the way the suspension geometry works with IRS. The important thing is that, as the wheel goes down, the bottom never tucks in. The geometry holds the wheel straight, and the tire patch is planted on the ground. There is also the issue of sidewall flex which is exascerbated with a swing arm suspension for the same reasons. Tuck a wheel under with a mushy sidewall on the tire and it just buries itself faster if the wheel itself is already angled onto the outside edge.

Now, to Stan's comment. If you never go out on a road track and never push your car to the limits, you'll never see any of this stuff. If you have to ask what it all means, you'll probably be too scared to try to make it corner that hard in the first place and will never notice the difference.

I built 6 dune buggies with swing arms before I built my first one with IRS. The handling difference (I autocrossed both styles) was SO MUCH better with IRS that I've never built a car with swing arms since.

Pearl has IRS, 3/4" (19mm) anti-sway arms front and rear, 16" X 7" wide rims all around with 205 tires front and 225 tires rear and sits pretty low. There are very few cars around the Savannah area that it won't out handle, including some nice 911's and more than a few Cobras. I'm way underpowered in those classes, but I CAN pull away from all of them in hard cornering with just a touch of understeer (more tire pressure should help). The next car will be set up just as well, BUT will have 300hp to the wheels, thanks to my son. THAT will be even more fun on the track!

Hope this helps. Need more info? email me!

gn

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Michael,

IRS is the only way to go. Now if your going that far and building a new car then why not go all the way and do a full 911 suspension car? The rack and pinion with a torsion strut has as much to do with the handling in the front as the IRS in the rear.


More expensive but how many times are you going to build your dream?
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