Wide 5 Disk conversion- AC industries- Need help-

Just purchased a newer VS speedster with wide 5 disc/drum set up similar to your new brakes.  I have the same long and soft pedal issue and plan on taking it to a shop for advice.  Post anything you learn and I will do the same.

You still have air in you system. How? The location of the bleeder screw on the front calipers isn't at the top of the caliper. The air bubbles always go up... wnd get trapped in the caliper. You need to un bolt the caliper from the bracket and rotate it up to the 12.o'clock position on the rotor. With the caliper at the 12 o'clock position and still on the rotor, blead the brakes as normal. Start at the right rear, then left rear, right front , and left front.  When you get the air out, then put the calipers back in their brackets.

Regarding the caliper that isn't centered, the kit may have come with different thickness washers. You use them as shims to center the caliper on the rotor. These are floating calipers, they will move a bit.

Hope this helps,
Ted

Million thanks Ted.  will try this.  Makes total sence.... Sows I have not used my common sence engineering skills in +15 plus years.

 

will post my results.

 

cheers

Ted.

That's interesting and worth a try, but doesn't seem logical to me.  With a closed system, it seems like it wouldn't matter where the bleed valve is, the air just gets flushed out.  Where in the system is the air trapped?

Think of it Troy- When in a liquid, air rises- it's lighter.

I had a similar problem with the rear discs on my IM.  The rotor was not centered in the caliper.  I ended up installing some washers to slightly move the caliper.

Not an ideal solution, but it hasn't given me any problems over the years.

Seriously Al?  Come on man I got a C+ in physics and I totally get that!  I'm not saying it won't work, I'm just asking where does the air get trapped in a closed system in such a way that the pressure of the fluid being pushed through the system won't flush it out even when the valve is not at the highest point.  I've bled lots of brakes, but never experienced that problem.

I just bought a disk brake conversion kit from AC and my directions are specific about position of the bleeder. Up. My calipers are marked L/R which will help. I have 10 slot wide 5s and a link

pin front end and it looks pretty easy, even for me. All the parts are marked "rabbit" made in Taiwan .  The bolts that go through the calipers and bolt to the brackets are pins that smooth are and rubber mounted so the calipers are free to float on the pins.  We'll see.

 

Good luck and I'll be interested to see what you find.  The parts are on the bench and the weather is turning colder so it's gonna get done soon.

Thank you guys.

I will tinker this weekend, and will post my results.

 

I also heard from AC Ind.  They gave me similar guidance on bleeding the system properly.

 

In addition they recommended I jack up the car one wheel at a time during the bleeding process so the bleeder screw is highest point in the car?   Starting in the rear L, then rear R, then front R, and finishing with the front L.

 

There are multiple high sots that can trap air if the system is bled with the car leveled ( jacked on all four corners).  Apparently a particularly tricky area lies in the line that runs down the tunnel, near the torsion housing.  There is a high spot/ hump in the line that commonly traps air if the system is not bled properly.  

 

They stated when the car is jacked up on all four corners ( horizontal) during the bleeding process,  the bleeder screws are the lowest point in the car.    Under this scenario, they say it's common for air to get trapped somewhere in the system.  This all makes sense.

 

They also said they get at least one call per week on this topic, and the problem is most always corrected after the system has been bled correctly. (air free)

 

Will put this to the test and report back.

 

Cheers,

Luis

 

 

If you have not done so, you may need to install a master cylinder with a larger 20.6mm bore. Also, you can adjust the push rod between the brake pedal and master cylinder to get more pedal, but be careful not to over adjust causing brake drag. It's a fine line.

 

Good Luck, Have Fun.

 

 

 

Braided steel brake lines will also help increase the pressure in the lines. Maybe a stupid question but I assume you have a dual reservoir and dual master cylinder. Lacking that set up can cause a loss in pedal pressure as well. If you have a single cylinder without the balancing valve that could also explain it. I never took Physics, but I did have a Fiat 1500 Spyder that I could never get the air out of the lines. I did not however sleep at a Holiday Inn Express. 

 

I had the same problem you have.  Long pedal travel, spongy, car would hardly stop. I finally fixed it by bleeding it three time, adjusting the brake master pushrod up as high as it could go without pushing on the master cyl piston and finally putting some miles on it to bed the brakes.  The braking performance still leaves me wanting more even with front disks but it will stop well if you jam on them hard. I'm just used to newer cars with power four wheel disks. It gets better as I drive it more. Has any one tried a real good set of front pads to see if that helps?

I installed the Empi 4 lug drum to disc conversion kit on my 2010 VS. It was one of my first projects. Along with the steel braided brake lines I have perhaps the best now powered brakes I have ever had on a car. I have lots of pedal and this MF stops quick. 

Luis, did you change the master cylinder as well? Lots of the front brake kits available today require this.

 

And yes, Troy, even with the pressures involved air can and does get trapped unless it can be removed via the highest point.

Troy- Just telling you what I know. If the bleeder isn't at the very top that area can trap air and it makes it very difficult to get a solid pedal. I'm guessing brake systems are designed with the bleeders being at the top for this reason, and is probably why you've never had that problem.

It does sound like trapped air is the problem and hopefully getting it out solves the problem.  I was just chuckling to myself about the air rises in liquid comment.  Sort of like telling me that water is wet. :-)

Danny,  I have not changed the MC.  didn't have to according to Andy (SoCal) and Kirk (VS), since I already had the AC ind 4lug disk brakes installed with the Bus

MC.  SoCal had a specific VS disk kit # which excluded Master Cyl., and brake lines.

 

i did pick up stainless bradded lines yesterday. May as well upgrade these now.

 

On my way out to the garage now to try my luck at bleeding the system... Hopefully it won't take me many tries to get all the air out.  Purchased a 32 oz bottle of fluid just in case....

 

Also-  i stopped by Park Place which currently has 4 newly built VS with the same wide 5 ACI front disk/rear drum set up.  I know the owner and he let me take two out for a drive, and they both braked great, with similar pedal travel as the VS 4 lug ACI set up car they also let me test derive.  in addition they put a car on a lift for me to look at the set up with one of their mechanics.  Seems like I have all the same parts as the car we looked at ( including the rubber brake lines)... 

 

... They offered to do the work for me if I can't bleed and adjust my system properly.   I hope it does not come to that.   I really want to do this my self...

 

wish me luck.

 

 

 

 

Some air bleed valves for various home hot water heating systems, randomly pulled from the interwebs. Note where they're all located relative to whatever they're designed to vent.

 

(Yes, we retired folk have entirely too much time on our hands) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like the Car Flipper knows more than everybody....it figures

Flyenby,

Go grind your axe some place else. Your shtick has grown tiresome.

Seriously - get over it,

Ted

TRP.  Go  F **K.  Yourself.......The Car Flipper has a big mouth....

ATTENTION Theron ...it's time for him to be banned....

 

Your mission is to continually make waves herein, the majority don't care what you do for a living or hobby. However, it is best give it a rest.

You have been previously encouraged  be a decent contributing person or perhaps it is best to bow out and find yourself another Forum.

You didn't seem to get the concept so I thought I'd spell it out for you..

Dr Clock.  .you must be quite insecure in your everyday life....or should I call you Dr Quack?

       
       

I tell you what, chief... You don't know me, but I know you wouldn't say that **** to my face. I guarantee it.

Take your tired ass whiny craps and move along.

You are making a fool out of yourself.

The most useful comments are those that are helpful and try to address questions we all have.  Taking pot shots at people doesn't help anyone. Posting something insightful does. Something to think about....

BTW Ted, that was NOT aimed at you.

TRP.....you are probably  a violent fool....with poor impulse control. You would probably wet your pants if you met me....

Yup. You've got my number.

 

 

 

Wow. Speaking of poor impulse control...

 

The only guy here with an issue seems to be you. Want to prove how grown-up you are? Perhaps you might try being nice. So far, nobody is impressed.

 

Reasonable adults with good impulse control don't cruise internet forums picking fights. 

Flyenby (do you have a first name?)- There's really no need to be rude here; all you seem to be looking for is confrontation. So far you haven't contributed all that much, and if all you're going to do is be an a&&hole then maybe you should be looking somewhere else for mental stimulation. Al 

 

I don't understand this at all.

 

We were discussing how to rid a system of a persistent pest that causes trouble wherever it appears. It's stubborn, hard to get rid of, and requires repeated venting.

 

Why did Flyenby choose to leave a comment just then?

 

 

Eject candidate right here....Theron...are you in here > ?   Thanks...

I left the comment because of the sarcasm of the car flipper, who can do no wrong in anybody's eyes, then I was personally attacked....are you people so immature that no one can differ with you? If you truly are need of someone to worship....you have made a very poor choice...

Sent from my iPad

 

 

Flyenby, I don't worship Troy.

 

I don't even consider him a saint. You need three miracles for that, and so far, I think he's performed only one or two at most. There was one outlaw that he turned virtuous almost overnight, but the Vatican has yet to deliver a formal pronouncement.

 

But Troy is a person. And I like to think that by just being a human being, he deserves a certain amount of common courtesy. If I don't agree with something he says or does, I don't start out by calling him a rude name. I try to engage him in a civil discussion that objectively gets to the heart of our differences without personal insults.

 

Of course, that's just me. I'm an old fart who was raised at a time when such niceties were considered more important than they seem to be today.

 

The thing is, a 'flipper' - of houses or cars or investment securities comprised of repackaged mortgage products - is someone of questionable moral fiber. Someone who's in it mainly for the money. Someone who takes almost worthless things, tarts them up, and is out of town before the victim realizes what has happened to his money.

 

I hardly think that describes what Troy does. Well yes, there have been rumors about just where he finds his cars. There's the gossip about shady deals in the back alleys of Hawaiian Gardens. But his cars seem mostly excellent value for the asking price, which can't be too much more than what he has invested in them.

 

And if he were stiffing people or dealing in shoddy goods, we'd be hearing from the disgruntled right here on the forum. So far though, I've heard no such complaints. As far as we can tell, Troy's customers are thoroughly gruntled.

 

So no, we don't worship members of the congregation here. If we hold anything holy it's the Speedsters themselves. Most of which - at least once in their lives - have risen from the dead.

 

 

This is the only person that I have ever blocked.  Apparently a good decision.  Unfortunately, when somebody responds with a quote I still get a taste. Blocking is a good solution, but not perfect.

Getting back to your brake pedal and bleeding the brakes. I have found it is necessary  sometimes depending on the bleeder location to unbolt the caliper and position it so the bleeder is at the top. Therefore you can get the trapped air out of the system. Also be sure you have the correct master cyl.  You may need to bleed them at least three times.  Also, you should replace the rubber lines with the braided lines.

So we can assume most manufactures  produce unsafe cars full of problems. And most need to be saved by the car flipper..who acts as though he is a non- profit organization. Whom apparently is a mechanical genius who knows more than all the builders. In this life...you get the respect you earn.

 

 

       
       

This situation may be the very definition of irony.