wide five wheels

There has been some discussion recently about 'wide five' wheels on replica speedsters. I'm just wondering what is so special about these wheels. As it was pointed out to me, once the hubcaps are on, they look just like regular wheels. I can certainly figure out how difficult it might be to find a shop to balance these wheels.

Are they more historically accurate for certain years of Speedsters? Are there advantages to having them? Or are people just looking for something different?

Just curious.

Robert,

Yes, they are historically correct.

356A's (and B's I think) had the wide-5 (205-5) pattern, where as the C's went to the modern 130-5 porsche hub pattern.

Early VW's had 205-5 before moving to 130-4. One of the easiest ways to spot a replica from afar is to count the number of slots in the wheel. 8 for a 130-4 pattern and 10 for a 205-5 pattern.

When planning my build 2 years ago, I set out to build my car with wide-5 because I wanted to run without hubcaps and the 130-4 wheels would not have looked right IMHO without them. This meant converting my modern VW donor back to early stud pattern.

The problem without hubcaps is the steel VW discs/drums versus the 356's alumninium drums. This is where drumskinz come in to cover up the discs. Though this winter i'll have gone to CSP discs (with their alloy hubs) all round (rather than just at the front) so these won't be strictly necessary.

(I suppose I should also add that my car is badged Chesil not Porsche, so I'm not trying to pretend to have a real porsche by going to these extremes!)

On the balancing question, yes, they're a pig to balance; My local tyre place hate me as they have to spent 15 minutes before and after fitting my tyres switching out the hub on their balancing machine!!

Is it worth the cost (seen the cost of front and rear wide-5 disc kits??) and effort? This is where the heart rules the head!!

Thanks, Simon. I had searched a number of sites trying to determine the accuracy of the wide fives for certain years of Speedsters. I know old VW's had them in the 50's or so.

Yes, Porsche used the wide pattern up until the advent of the 356C which used disc brakes. VW cars used the wide pattern up until 1967. I don't think there is any real advantage one ver the other, but the wide 5 pattern adds the nostalgic look

I agree with all you guys; the wide five is definitely THE look for the Speedster....

My car came with wide five 14" 67 Bus rims and wide/low tires. They're much wider than Beetle 15 inch wide fives with all of the extra width to the inside. Kind of cool for a fat tire Outlaw look and still keeps all of the tire and rim inside the body without any front wheel rub.

Just an option,

TC

That's cool TC; just a curious note: originally Speedsters and 356's in general came with 16" rims and then they were changed to 15".

But you don't have to go to extremes getting 16" wheels, just run the car with good ol w5s without hubcaps from time to time and you will call the attention of someone who might know something about the originals,,, just to make them wonder.
Ive always loved the look of the wide 5, its like a symbol of the real vw/porsche era, would not trade that for anything... mine is a 71 (4 lug) with w5 discs on front, w5 drums on back - cheers -

My reference books state that the 16" wheels were fitted only to the pre-A 356s.

From the 356A the cars had 15" wheels, so 15"'s would be correct for a '57 speedster.

You hit it right on the money Simon. A side note: There's a guy from the UK in the General section that wants to know more about Chesils, maybe you can jump in and enlighten him.

Hey JJ, Did you just switch out the 4 lug rear drums for some wide 5 rear drums and then put on a wide 5 front disc rotor and caliper conversion kit? If so ,where did you get your parts? about what was the cost? thanks mike

Michael,

Re: Questions regarding sumps, oil filters, wide 5s, etc.

Really, the best thing you can do is buy a current copy of Hot VWs magazine. Here in the Midwest, you'll have to look for it, but Barnes and Noble usually have a copy. Buy it even if its a month old. I have found the articles to be pretty much useless, but the ads are half the magazine, and worth the price of the mag. Once you buy one and spend an evening or two looking at the ads, you'll understand a WHOLE lot more about what is available. What you are asking for is pretty common stuff.

BTW: Lots of people sell an oil filter kit for a VW, as well as a sump kit. CB Performance and So-Cal make zero offset wide 5 kits, but get out your check-book. There all in the magazine.

Simon, actually there was some overlap; a few early 356A Speedsters like my old '56 1600 had the pre-A gauges and 16" wheels. Porsche didn't waste anything but built cars with what was on hand until the old parts supplies were exhausted. They even repaired cars with damaged bodies and sold them as new (which technically, they were...).

If people knew how the Porsche factory approached engineering and car construction, up until about a decade ago, they certainly would be quite a bit less concerned about how authentic a given item might be. For sure, if the PCA guys knew, they would be taking points off each concours entrant on general principle.

A friend of mine restored a very rare RSR race car. When it came time to rewire the car, Porsche sent a couple of engineers over from Werk 1 to help him. He said the engineers laughed when he mentioned something about engineering on a Porsche. They said, "oh yaa, ven vee engineer somsing at Porsche, vee go to zee shelf and vaht is there, vee bolt toghezer...", they then laughed histerically.

Greetings Michael, I built the car (71 chassis)using 67' Wide five drums front and rear... I had to make a spacer for the rear drums to make them work with the irs axle. I told this to someone and he laughed at me saying that the spacers are readily available... dont know. Latter I ugraded the front drums to disks from so cal. It was a snap, just bolt on, bleed and go. The use usa manufactured disk rotors with vw rabbit german calipers & pads. The kit i used is for regular spindles (not dropped). Hope this helps - JJ

Sounds like there were a lot of similarities between the Porsche factory and Austin Healey (and probably others). Sounds like BOTH places hand-built their cars with whatever was in the parts bins that day and that no two were really, truly the same because of those very slight variations.

Just the knowlege of that would drive me nuts taking a "restored" car to a concours event and be subject to what someone else thought was "authentic"...

Gordon -

I would guess even places like Mercedes employed tactics like these in decades past. Nowadays, with Zero Defects, Just In Time, etc., none of these type of "hand made" techniques are allowed.

It does render the more high born attitudes some of the PCA people seem to take, a little humerous.

In the end, its just a car....oops, sorry all.

If you look on the PCA web site it states "It's not the cars, it's the people." as long as they have an approved model Porsche, eh?

Dale,

I just checked out the PCA web site and had a great idea. The way to really piss the Porsche Boys off, would be to manufacture a Replica 914 that bolts to a VW chassis, and then start badging it as a Porsche. I'll bet that a really beautifully reproduced, painted in those cool 70's factory colors, with the P O R S C H E side decal, tasty interior and monster VW engine in the rear fiberglass 914 replica would turn a lot of heads. Maybe as much as a nicely turned out Speedster. If the Porsche community looks down on them, let's adopt them here. Well, not HERE . . .

If anyone knows of a badly rotted 914 , titled, no engine or trans, no suspension or wheels, just a fairly complete rotted body tub that is too rusted to be put back on the road? I WANT it.

Let me know ! ! ! ! I'll buy it immediately! I KNOW that I'm onto something here. NO KIDDING! Anyone know of a car in the New England-Rhode Island-Connecticut area. Please let me know.

Thanks,

TC

Back to the wide fives - anyone know if these were painted or chromed on original speedsters? I have seen both, but wonder which is more original?

Robert:

I checked 4 different books I have on Speedster restoration and did not see one "Porsche Brochure" picture that showed chromed wheels. In every one the wheels were painted silver.

Having said that, more than half of all the pictures that seemed to be period taken, but not Porsche company origin, showed chrome. Unfortunately in the books I have, I could not find a reference to them offering a chrome wheel option. I would dobut seriously that there would have been as many chrome wheels in the older pictures unless Porsche offered this as an option.

Sorry I could not be more specific, so much for spending $100+ on books.

Bill

Bill:

Your post triggered my memory (yes, it still works).

I checked this site, and found chromed wheels for $59.50 (1950's prices)as a 356A accessory.

members.aol.com/Porchratt/356-AAccessories.html

Since the 356 was offered as a stripped down alternative to the Cabriolet, I would say that the wheels would have been painted steel from the factory. If you're not offering windows or decent seats, why would you bother with chrome wheels. I know that the early cars were shipped with painted wheels and no side trim.

That said, since the car was built to capitalize on the sports car boom taking place in the American Market, and we loved chrome back then, chrome wheels and side trim was quickly an option. The side trim so common to Speedsters was actually offered on all of the 356 model line, but you rarely see it on the coupe at all. Why place it on the Speedster and not the more luxurious coupe? Probably because the Speedster was the highest seller here and, again, chrome kind of meant sporty to us and the car was aimed at the younger sporty buyer.

Of course, the Rudge wheels were chromed from the supplier.

As good of an explaination as any, maybe?

Doesn't all of this thread just smack of a REAL 356 Forum entry? Or is it just me . . .

TC

As per Dr. Johnson's book, the chrome wheels are first listed in the 1955 parts book. It also says that body color was a possible alternative as well as white with body colored centers and vice versa. Silver wheels were found on red and blue Speedsters.

For 356A's wheels could be supplied primed, silver or chrome plated. Body colored rims were common prior to T2's.

Thanks, Ricardo. Good information

Me too, THANKS.

What is Dr. Johnson's book? Sounds like a very good one to own. Do you know if it's still available?

TC

TC; it's called The 356 Porsche, the restorer's guide to authenticity by Dr. Brett Johnson and it's available via Amazon through the link here. I bought it because some fellow members recommended it to me. It's a great guide.

Thanks, Ricardo! I'll order one tomorrow. I sound just about indespensible.

Well seeing as how I already have popped for 4 others, I might as well go for one more....

Thanks Ricardo.

Anytime guys.....and remember that buying from Amazon through the link here helps this website too.....

And THANKS! to Mr.Carley as well.

What a wonderful 356 site that is! All of the info and images, but also the way in which they're presented and the pages are formatted. It's like looking through a good coffee table book on the 356.

Great find, thanks for the post, it went right into my "favorites" folder.

TC

Hey, why so formal? Any friends I have call me Bob, I think...

I shot these wide 5-205's at Thunder Hill last weekend, they are on original Porsches. Methinks I see drum brakes. My VS has extended studs and when the hub caps are off the car definately looks frisky.

The wheel on the red car is a custom made wheel. The owner claims he had them made 30 years ago - I thought they were kind of neat, like premature center line wheels.

Bob, in the mid 50's I saw a lot of Porsche Speedsters and ALL of them had silver painted wheels except for a late Carrera convertible that had the chromed Rudge knock-offs. My red '56 also had silver wheels.

What is a 'Bevins'wheel? I saw it mentioned in a post somewhere, thought it was on this 5 lug bizzznezzz, but nope?

My other P-word cars had steel wheels painted 'cept for the '60. It had chrome wheels and super hub nippley caps.

There is a very similar wheel to the ones on the red car that is posted up above here in the VW mags...

What other wheels would be worthy of a ride on a speedster? If I have disc brakes, I'd like 'em to show. No one seems to bent (oops, not a good word to use around wheels)on enterlines anymore. They were clean, light and sort of retro-ish looking.

Paul- The "bivens" wheel your inquiring about is made by Alex Bivens in Canada. His wheels are reproductions of the Porsche Pre-A Carrera wheels. Basically, they have a steel stamped inner hub with an aluminum outer. Cost is about $2k/set ($500/ea) I believe George Brown has a set on his '03 IM Speedster that was finished earlier this year.

Actually, Alex Bivens is in Huntington Beach, CA. The wheels he makes are made entirely of Aluminium and come in 5.5" and 6" x 15 for wide 5 and the 356C (911) bolt pattern. For the "wheel" story look at www.356wch.com or look at page 29 of the sept/oct registry mag.

Having seen them, they are sweet, and weigh less than the 6" forged Fuchs.

As it turns out you're both BOTH wrong: Alex Bivens is a golfing pro and instructor who lives in TN and is a member of the faculty at the Sequatchie Valley Golf and Country Club. His hourly rates are quite reasonable and I believe that he offers clinics through the year.