will I have enough engine to have fun??

It will never be as fast as your 911, but (at least) some small part of you will want it to be.

That, anyway, is the general impression I get from reading this forum for the past three years or so.

Nope. Not even close.

Sorry, man-- I really am. It's a slippery slope.

Forewarned is forearmed.

The engine saga is almost always the same for replica owners who start with 1600 cc engines: a little head massage, some mild exhaust work, maybe a cam, different carb, then the realization that more cubes are what is relly needed.

Then, depending on the wallet and mindset of the owner, the realization comes that you can't go too big.  Going fast in a Speedster replica seems closer to the edge than in a more polished platform, such as your 911.  Your mind doesn't wander off.  For those of us with one form of ocd or another, the pursuit of speed can become an extremely powerful force.  Best of luck in whatever you decide.  Remember that you were warned.  Please let others know what you decide.  Misery loves company! 

FWIW - In my '95 VS I have a relatively mild set-up. An 1835cc with 110 cam, polished ports, aux oil cooler/fan, 1.25 rockers, dual Kadrons, 3:88 trans & A-1 Sidewinder. I cruise on the interstate at 75+ mph for extended periods without issue, peppy around town cruising, 30 mpg.

Perform usual maintenance (oil-change, valve, belts, sync carbs) and have logged 85,000+ trouble free miles through most Western states and 10,000'+ altitude through Colorado Rockies without a hiccup from the engine.

Knowing my driving habits with the 'fast' cars I've owned (Porsches), if I had a high HP motor in my VS, I would probably not be able to keep my foot from constantly mashing that gas pedal and getting myself in trouble. 

 

When choosing a new engine you have to be honest with yourself.  Are you happy to just bop along in the slow lane, or do you want an engine that will give you a kick in the pants when you stomp on the gas pedal?   What would drive me bananas, because it's too slow, would be fine for others.  I freely admit that I like power. 

As Stan mentioned, it's a slippery slope.

I've owned a lot of cars, like many guys on the site, including a 911S. I 'm not a speed demon  but if I put my foot into it I want a reaction and I want to cruise easily at 75 mph.

I have driven several speedsters with 1600 single carb, 1915 dual carb engines. I wouldn't trade my 2110 stroker with dual dells and some additional minor goodies for anything less.

If you are used to some significant "gitty up and go" you may tire quickly with a 1600 and be looking for a bigger engine pretty soon. It's like money to me, better to have more than I need than less.

Good luck on your project.

If you can talk a couple of guys with varying setups to let you drive their cars, you'll be more likely to make the right choice. 

I had a very long post all ready to go, but it can easily be distilled down to how you plan to use the car.

If you are just going to run errands, bomb around after work for a 1/2 hour or so, and never venture more than 20 mil from your front door-- either a stock-ish engine or a big/bad drag-race Type 1 will work equally well for you. The big/bad motor is a lot more fun.

If you plan to take trips of any kind, both of those engines are equally bad. The stock-ish engine will get you killed on the interstate, and the drag-race motor will leave you stranded 2 or 3 times before you just take the Tahoe. You want a motor with enough pull to keep up with traffic, but not one that requires a tear-down every 15K mi.

My personal vote for "perfect" would be a mildly bored and/or stroked Type 4 with dual 40 (or 45) DLRAs and a Tangerine Racing Tri-Y exhaust. I'm a tight-wad, so I'm all over the Type 1 stuff- I wouldn't go any bigger than a 2276 with a Type 1 (once the stroke is longer than 82 mm, either the rod-ratios get all out of whack, or the engine gets ridiculously wide).

I wouldn't go smaller than a 1915, and would never (ever) run stock heads or cam. If you look at a real-world dyno curve for an engine with "fluff-'n-buff" heads and a stock cam with 1.25 rockers, the torque curve drops off really badly at 4000 RPM-- just where an engine with good heads and a better cam is waking up. I had a 1600 DP with a single PICT34 in my '64 panel van, and I couldn't bear it any more. It's really, really slow.

Your mileage may vary, but as always: forewarned is forearmed.

Hey Stan, you were a big help when I was specing out my car.   Just curious what you think about my CB 2054 stroker.  It's been completely reliable and gives me that kick in the pants around town.

I think you are right in the sweet-spot, Tom. I think anything from a 2007 to a 2276 is going to be right in the wheel-house.

Some guys know what they are after right away. It took me a lot longer to figure it out. These cars can be tailored to the application, but cannot be all things to all people. Making a speedster into a sporty, reliable GT is a lot harder than building a piece of garage art, or a nasty pavement-pounder.

You hit a home run in your first at-bat. You sir, are the man.

Stan's post a couple of spots up described it perfectly. For something that gets great mileage and is easy to take care of, yet has good get up and go it needs to be over 2 liters. Some good 40x35 heads, dual 40-44mm Webers or Dels and a cam/rocker combo that has low 250ish degrees @ .050" (will rev to about 6,000rpm with power) and 1/2" (or there abouts) valve lift and it won't need much more maintenance than a stocker. It will produce 135- 160hp and will be mucho FUN!!!

Tom- your motor sounds like it would be a blast to drive!

If I had it to do again my IM would have a Jake Raby 2275 type 4, with around 150 hp. Jake's engines are pricey, but after having my near-new engine rebuilt the overall cost will probably be about the same.

Because I plan on doing long cruises my IM it MUST be reliable.  Breaking down while on a long road trip is a real pain.

If the  $ bux $ were the same Ron, would you put them into a Raby aircooled or liquid cooled and why ? 

I considered a Raby engine when I had my IM rebuilt, but I had a number of parts from my old 2010 (forged crank, Pauter rockers, decent CB 044 heads, etc) and I wanted cabin heat.  I also thought that a Raby type 4 was too expensive, but in hindsight, when you consider the long haul,  they're not.

If I had it to do again I'd get my heat from another source and sell my type 1 engine parts on SAMBA.

well after owning a 1958 Cab for a short while, I understand that the old cars by todays standards are slow. That being said the speedster replica is a few pounds lighter and it makes a few more HP (not much) but a little more. I would think it would be on target with a real 356 of the same era

Let me be more clear with my question, Ron. If you had no engine today and were to make a choice, would you prefer an aircooled or liquid cooled engine by Raby and why ?

To answer mr. Autobahn who wrote:  well after owning a 1958 Cab for a short while, I understand that the old cars by todays standards are slow. That being said the speedster replica is a few pounds lighter and it makes a few more HP (not much) but a little more. I would think it would be on target with a real 356 of the same era."

That's very true if you stick with a bone-stock 1,600cc engine. Basically, compared to most of the Speedsters on this site, a stock 1600 is gut-less.  Reliable, but gut-less.

At 2,000 pounds, my CMC is actually 200 pounds heavier than a stock Speedster at a book weight of 1,820, but my 2,110cc engine also produces over twice the horsepower (148hp on a dyno) of a stock, 1500 super, 1957 Speedster.  That said, I also have a flared fender version and had been running 225X16 rear tires and 205X16 front tires with 3/4" sway bars on both ends and Koni shocks all around.  With that combination at Roebling Roads or Hutchinson Island track near Savannah, GA, I had no trouble keeping up with a mid-90's Porsche 911 C4 in the curves.  On the front straight (about 1/4 mile) he would pull ahead by 4-6 car lengths, but I could consistently out-corner him and catch up, lap after lap.   So, while I never passed him, he finished our set exactly where he started out - right on my front bumper (and boy!, was he pissed!)

Actually, my deleted original post addressed this very point. My Intermeccanica is the third replica speedster I've owned. The first two were "Brand X" and had 1776s with stock heads, 110 cams (purportedly), and ICT carbs. I advocated quite persuasively (I thought at the time) for a powerplant that "approximated the output of the original".

The reality is that they do not. A 1600 super had quite a few performance and longevity upgrades from a 1600 DP VW Type 1, and a lot more reliability than a stock Type 1 with some bigger cylinders and ratio rockers.

Make no mistake, a small Type 1 can be made to run wonderfully. The reality is: to do so reliably costs nearly as much as a nice 2L+ stroker, so why would anybody do it? The answer is that they do not.

My advice is this: stick with the stock 1600 with a single carb. Don't do ANYTHING to it. Drive it for a while. You'll order the engine you really want by next winter.

If I was back at this stage.....

....I'm not sure what I would do.  I'd rather have a water cooled Subie engine, but a Raby type 4 would be MUCH easier to install, and both would be very reliable, which is very important to me and even more important to my wife.

I think the Subie engine would be a cheaper option, but only if I could do most of the fabrication myself.  If I had to pay someone it would get very expensive.

Presently, I'm having some difficulty getting my mechanic to start work on my engine.  He's had the engine since late November, but hasn't touched it.  I'm starting to wonder he ever will.  I've said that I want the engine fixed by mid March.  If he hasn't started on it by the first week in March I'll probably have to take the engine back and think about my options.

David---I've told you how much I admire your Suby engine---look how well it's treated you over a gazillion miles.  If I had to start over it would be a quandry for me.  I wanted the Air cooled Raby Type IV because the original Speedsters were air cooled.  Flying behind many Lycoming and Continental engines, that closely resemble the Type IV gave me confidence in this style engine too.  I wanted anvil like reliability as the #1 consideration because of all the miles Alice and I put on Interstates.  I didn't want to constantly adjust the engine to keep it in top shape either---and I haven't. I couldn't wait to swap out my original 1915 with just 19,000 miles on it. And it was running perfectly, but I always had reliability concerns, mostly stemming from posts on this forum over the years.   I never felt good with a "mexicrate" powering my Speedster even though it always ran satisfactorily.

What most people don't know is how much "beefier" the Type IV is for example there are THREE journals that support the crankshaft rather than just two in the Type I.  Everyone knos that the life of an engine is usually in inverse proportion to the increase in displacemrent so with the stock 2 liter Type IV you are already at 2,000 ccs.  Mine is abour 2200 ccs so almost no increase was added to displacement and the expected mileage should be maybe 100,000 miles rather than maybe a half or even a third of a fairly large Type I

BUT---a big consideration these days is the availability of quality parts for a new engine build. The parts in my Type IV are almost all German, otherwise they are fabricated by Jake to match and sometimes exceed OEM specs. 

So--my take on the either - or issue  would be, if you can source the right parts, consider the Type IV.  If not, the Suby is the future.  Passing years are not the friend of getting good parts and as time passes the aircooled reliability will diminish, in my opinion.  I'm glad I got what I got when the gettin' was good! 

The 1600 is rated @ 57hp in stock fourm  With a few up grades you can get 75-80hp and have it reliable and fairly problem free. I understand what has been said about the 1600. I plan on for at least this season running the 1600. Next winter when my work load slows down I will build a  larger engine. Something over a two liter. I have though about just building a Porsche six cylinder and calling it done. I can get over 200hp with no problem. Plus its a true Porsche engine

Before I stuff the 1600 in the back. I may install a 911 engine just to check fitment, and see if there are any issues with the engine being to long to fit? It will be close but I figure why not. 

I think you'll find that there are some issues.  I know Henry Reisner moves the mounting points for the engine/transaxle forward several inches, with the halfshafts at an angle rather than straight out.  I believe this is due to fitment issues as well as weight distribution.

I got just what I was looking for with my Type I stroker.  Now that I've gotten the air-cooled thing out of my system and am a little more knowledgeable, if it ever dies, I will replace it with a completely obnoxiously large Suby.

Well that good to know, I guess Ill just stick to a four cylinder and not cause myself a ton of redesigning work. Im not a speed freak so I think Ill find what I like with a larger four cylinder

I like the idea of staying true to design. With a aircooled four

I'd do just that--spunk up the 1600 a bit, & drive it for a season or so. There's really no point in half-measures for the completed engine, and this stuff has gotten really spendy in the last 10 years.

I'm pretty deeply invested in the Type 1 platform, but for what I've spent over the years, I could've had a very, very nice (and big) Raby Type 4. Doing it right the first time will save you a lot of money, but you won't know what "right" is until you have the car for a while and learn what your expectations of it are.

For me, a speedster says "air-cooled flat 4", but everything else is on the table. I'd love to see a "Type none" air-cooled push-rod flat 4 built on new castings, etc. that fixes all the issues associated with the various platforms. I'd love it if somebody would design and build a 911 style shroud that cools effectively and evenly. I'd love it if this hypothetical engine had a truly bolt-on EFI system with a wasted spark ignition. I'd love it if this engine had the flexibility of platform to be available in sizes from 2L to near 3L.

... but I'd love to be 25 again, and know what I know now. The world we inhabit requires compromise. The ideal compromise is going to be different for different people.

Stan

You can have the first of those engines you dreaming of that is sorted and I'll take the second.

2013 Corn Daze planning has begun. See the Events section!

Oh yeah, and Stan, the reason I have this car is that every once in a while, when the sun is at the right angle, the wind is blowing through what is left of my once brown hair, my back isn't killin' me and I'm on some twisty between here and Galesburg in the Speedster, I feel 25! Long as I don't see myself in the rear view mirror I can sometimes hold on to that fantasy for 10 or 20 minutes!

Good one BobG!! Gordon Nichols,your CMC is 2k lbs!!! What?? That is heavy! I had to weigh my Beck at a weigh station and with a full tank is 1640 lbs!! They base the price of registration on weight here in Hawaii,so they use accurate,certified scales. I have some period raod tests,and a Speedster was 1740-1780lbs. depending on magazine,and the Carrera speedster weighed in @ 1848lbs!

 Your CMC weighs more than a real one!! What? Remember,this is without occupants...

Jim:

Yup.....2K pounds on Danny P's 4-wheel scales at Carlisle years ago (I was pretty surprised....), with a 3/4-full tank and no riders, but including a full-size spare, marine battery, Lord knows how much 3/8" thick sound proofing, pretty big tires on relatively light Fuchs rims and good, CMC, expert-fiberglass-tech sputtering of the fiberglass.  I suspect the thing has 3/4" thick glass in some places - the dash where the center strut goes through is almost 1/2" thick, but then I've never had a crack, anywhere in over 12 years of pretty harsh roads.  Knowing that it weighs that much and goes as well as it does makes me appreciate the engine I built even more!

It would be interesting to see what Bill Drayer's, "Blackie" weighs - it's pretty much the same as my car, maybe w/o the spare tire and sound proofing.......

2110............

and mine is kinda thin in places,I sure hope it isant heaver than my bug!!!

I bet my IM is no lightweight either.

Just for $hits and giggles I priced out a Jake Raby Type 4 2270RR, for a 356 replica.

$12,000 with a core exchange and $13,000 without.  With taxes and shipping it would cost me around $15,000. 

The engine produces 155 hp, with 170 lb/ft of torque.

Wow! That's a whole 20 more horses and 20 more ft-lbs than a stock ej22 you could pull out of any boneyard for $600 or so and rig up in your Speedster for another $2,000. No wonder Jake's stuff is the ultimate Shiznitzle.

And with a stronger bottom end on the EJ22 so you could do interesting (and cheap) turbo mods, too.  

My guess is that for around 3 grand (half the price of a new CB Performance AC VW engine) you could be pulling a very reliable 250hp and 235 ft. lbs. of torque and not even break a sweat.

The ultimate schnitzle.......I love it.

At the risk of being seen as a heretic, and even though I am currently running an aircooled VW engine, anyone considering a new car build and still considering running an air cooled VW engine in it is like living in the c1780 farmhouse where I grew up - wood heat, 2-holer outhouse (with a single, primative bath for four bedrooms), root cellar, cordwood storage for 12 cords (because you'll have to cut, stack and burn that much every winter) and running water from the spring in the hillside out back, rather than the central heat and A/C, town water and sewer and master bath house I currently have.  It was nice to grow up in a colonial museum once featured in "Yankee Magazine", but I would never go back there.....

When Pearl's VW engine gives up the ghost, you can be sure a recent Suby will be going in.